C&L Finescale

[hayfield]

I can totally understand the frustration those waiting for their orders to be sent,It is very easy when you stand back knowing little about the business and its commercial pressures, saying how you would run it. But there has been some good suggestions about putting a halt to certain activities until the backlog has been eliminated, trouble is Phil does not as far as I know read this website

 

After last weekend now there are no shows in July and only 1 in August, plus there is a new schedule from July of telephone answering times (allowing time for mail orders to be concentrated on ) also the installation of not only a new website but a replacement email service, as the one inherited from C&L is still causing problems. What has been asked for

 

The summer break has come to the rescue of those calling a halt in show attendance, and hopefully with a new IT system is being put in place email issues may be resolved.

 

We all stand back and hope Phill can make substantial in roads in clearing up the delayed orders in the following weeks

[Joseph_Pestell]

"Closing the doors for a few days" could be a very sensible option if it gives time to have a thorough stocktake and catalogue that stock onto a POS system that will integrate with re-ordering and accounting. If, for instance, he was using Paypal, the POS is available to work on a tablet which can also be taken out to shows.

[ClikC]

It seems to me that running C&L successfully requires more than one person. I gather the previous owner employed two or three. But it also seeems the business is not profitable enough to support that level of staff, and is now run by one person alone.

 

The old Axiom "you can't cost cut your way to profitability". Springs to mind.

 

If the volume of business is to large to be achievable by one person, as witnessed by the backlog, then you need more staff. But then, If the business is not profitable because having X number of staff, then there is a far bigger problem with the business model than 'staffing'.

 

Hopefully the issues will soon sort themselves out.

 

Long live the free market.

 

Regards

 

Matt

[martin_wynne]

Skipping a few shows and using the time to clear the backlog, and preparing stock, would lead to satisfied customers and remove the stress of all those unfulfilled orders and unanswered e-mails/'phone calls.

 

I suspect that all or most of the orders which can be despatched, have been. The clue is in GNR Dave's post: "Two days later, a package arrived. Sadly, of the 5 items I ordered, 2 were not included and two were the wrong items."

 

Been there, got the T-shirt. The problem with mail order is that folks will insist on ordering, and often paying for, stuff which you haven't got. And which very likely can't be got for several weeks.

 

The answer nowadays is a web-site showing actual stock levels, and preventing out-of-stock items from being ordered. There is a note on the C&L web site that an IT company has been found to fix the web site. If this had been done from the start, I suspect many of the present troubles would not have arisen.

 

And I suggest that while attending shows the site is taken off-line, so that it can be updated with stock levels after the show before going live again.

 

Of course, it's very easy to be wise about someone else's business.

 

Martin.

[k22009]

I'm quite surprised his accountant hasn't questioned the show attendances.

 

Local shows to Phil would seem fiscally sound, you can stay at home and fuel costs for transporting the stand etc are relatively low. But take for instance my local show last weekend at Perth that's nearly 1000 miles worth of fuel and at least 3 nights if not more for accommodation/food before you even account for your own personal time attending the show for 2 days and driving for 10 hours each way before you sell a bean. How does the company sustain the profits to even justify it, he must either be turning over an awful lot or he's losing money hand over fist and just attending to keep the company profile visual.

 

I'm not saying he shouldn't attend just questioning the finances behind it.

 

Dave

[GNR Dave]

I suspect that all or most of the orders which can be despatched, have been. The clue is in GNR Dave's post: "Two days later, a package arrived. Sadly, of the 5 items I ordered, 2 were not included and two were the wrong items."

 

Been there, got the T-shirt. The problem with mail order is that folks will insist on ordering, and often paying for, stuff which you haven't got. And which very likely can't be got for several weeks.

 

The answer nowadays is a web-site showing actual stock levels, and preventing out-of-stock items from being ordered. There is a note on the C&L web site that an IT company has been found to fix the web site. If this had been done from the start, I suspect many of the present troubles would not have arisen.

 

And I suggest that while attending shows the site is taken off-line, so that it can be updated with stock levels after the show before going live again.

 

Of course, it's very easy to be wise about someone else's business.

 

Martin.

Except that in this case, after placing the order, I phoned him to pay by credit card as instructed to do on his web page, where he assured me that all the items were in stock. 

It would have also been helpful if it stated on the enclosed invoice / receipt that 2 items were 'to follow'. Until I manage to make contact, I don't know if the items are out of stock or he just forgot to put them in the box.

Edited June 26, 2018 by GNR Dave

[martin_wynne]

Except that in this case, after placing the order, I phoned him to pay by credit card as instructed to do on his web page, where he assured me that all the items were in stock.

 

In that case it seems he has some serious questions to answer. What delivery period were you promised? Did he collect funds immediately from the card, or simply take the details to use later when the order was ready for despatch?

 

Martin.

[Mr.S.corn78]

I'm quite surprised his accountant hasn't questioned the show attendances.

 

Local shows to Phil would seem fiscally sound, you can stay at home and fuel costs for transporting the stand etc are relatively low. But take for instance my local show last weekend at Perth that's nearly 1000 miles worth of fuel and at least 3 nights if not more for accommodation/food before you even account for your own personal time attending the show for 2 days and driving for 10 hours each way before you sell a bean. How does the company sustain the profits to even justify it, he must either be turning over an awful lot or he's losing money hand over fist and just attending to keep the company profile visual.

 

I'm not saying he shouldn't attend just questioning the finances behind it.

 

Dave

 

Sometimes you have to spend a little to make a little and by that I mean he may not make a profit/cover his costs attending the show but the increase in mail order afterwards may make up for it. Having worked in a model shop that attended shows we always saw a spike of orders to local address around the area of the last show we visited as people have a look at the guide or decide to buy that item they picked up and looked at, at the show and put it back down.

 

Both of the items you have mentioned are both classed as expenses / running costs (depending on if its a sole trader or Ltd company) so even though you have to pay out the costs in the first place you can deduct them from the tax at the end of the financial year.

[GNR Dave]

In that case it seems he has some serious questions to answer. What delivery period were you promised? Did he collect funds immediately from the card, or simply take the details to use later when the order was ready for despatch?

 

Martin.

 

Funds were taken from the card when the order was placed in April.

He said he would send it out 'as soon as he could'

Edited June 26, 2018 by GNR Dave

[GNR Dave]

Surely....?

 

 

Good job it wasn't 'Tears of a Clown'  I might have had to come round there and give you a slap

[purplepiepete]

Funds were taken from the card when the order was placed in April.

He said he would send it out 'as soon as he could'

 

This is a familiar story - in my case it was bank transfer payments. What I would add is Phil has always eventually sent the items and also exchanged incorrect items - in my case 4mm fishplates sent instead of 7mm ! When I rang he did admit his stock was not ideally 'located' and mistakes happen.

 

This was a few months ago but lead times then were 6 - 10 weeks. Far from an acceptable service level - especially when payments are taken up front - and patience wears thin waiting for the post every day.

Edited July 1, 2018 by purplepiepete

[GNR Dave]

I do appreciate that he is new to the business and a one man band and may have inherited the problems of the previous owner. I think a little up front honesty with delivery times and stock levels would help. As it was I didn't know if my items were on their way, awaiting dispatch or more worryingly, lost in the post.

 

My experiences won't put me off buying more stuff from him, but in future I'll wait until I can catch him at a local show. Tolworth Showtrain come on down !  

[hayfield]

The old Axiom "you can't cost cut your way to profitability". Springs to mind.

 

If the volume of business is to large to be achievable by one person, as witnessed by the backlog, then you need more staff. But then, If the business is not profitable because having X number of staff, then there is a far bigger problem with the business model than 'staffing'.

 

Hopefully the issues will soon sort themselves out.

 

Long live the free market.

 

Regards

 

Matt

 

 

Matt

 

Sadly it was not the volume of orders which caused the backlog, but a series of events, some of Phils own making, others were foreseeable, others were due to an IT issue which I was informed was down to the previous owner.

 

Hopefully the next couple of months will enable Phil to resolve matters.

[martin_wynne]

A useful question to ask when phoning would be  "how many orders are in the pipeline in front of mine?" Or maybe "when were the orders you are despatching today originally ordered?"

 

If there is clearly going to be a long delay, offer to ring again with the card details when notified that despatch is imminent. The prospect of receiving a payment is a great incentive to progress an order.

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

I'm quite surprised his accountant hasn't questioned the show attendances.

 

 

Dave

 

 

I am sorry but what's Phil's accountant got to do with it ? For small businesses accountants prepare a set of accounts which looks at the years trading position, yes he can tell Phil if he has made a profit or loss, but Phil will be aware of this fact long before an accountant looks at the books

 

Now if he employed a management consultant, who would separate the various trading activities from each other, then he would have an accurate account of which activities make profits. However I expect most traders at shows are well aware if attending the show is profitable, certainly each night of every show Phil is aware of how much he has taken and therefore how profitable the attendance has been. Additionally as other contributors have stated in their replies, there will be future sales forthcoming from a shows attendance

 

The real crux of the matter is that Phil needs to get on top of the mail order side plus obtain a reliable website/email system. He is now in the quiet period of the show callender and has secured assistance on the IT side,  

[Porcy Mane]

Hopefully the next couple of months will enable Phil to resolve matters.

 

I sincerely hope you're right. This is a business that is almost essential to those that are modelling  in gauges other than 00 (or should that be OO?) but we were being told, "all will be well in a couple of months" well over a couple of months ago.

 

The one man band excuse doesn't hold water. I can think of many one man bands in the model railway trade that seem to manage quite adequately and one in particular springs to mind, in not only offering a very good service but expanding his range on an almost monthly basis.

 

P

[ClikC]

Matt

 

Sadly it was not the volume of orders which caused the backlog, but a series of events, some of Phils own making, others were foreseeable, others were due to an IT issue which I was informed was down to the previous owner.

 

Hopefully the next couple of months will enable Phil to resolve matters.

 

Hi John,

 

Thanks for the clarification, I wish Phil the best of luck in resolving these issues.

 

Regards

 

Matt

[AndyID]

I am sorry but what's Phil's accountant got to do with it ? For small businesses accountants prepare a set of accounts which looks at the years trading position, yes he can tell Phil if he has made a profit or loss, but Phil will be aware of this fact long before an accountant looks at the books

 

Now if he employed a management consultant, who would separate the various trading activities from each other, then he would have an accurate account of which activities make profits. However I expect most traders at shows are well aware if attending the show is profitable, certainly each night of every show Phil is aware of how much he has taken and therefore how profitable the attendance has been. Additionally as other contributors have stated in their replies, there will be future sales forthcoming from a shows attendance

 

The real crux of the matter is that Phil needs to get on top of the mail order side plus obtain a reliable website/email system. He is now in the quiet period of the show callender and has secured assistance on the IT side,  

 

Hi John,

 

If you have any ability to influence Phil, please encourage him to adopt eBay or something similar ASAP. eBay does extract a significant percentage, but that's a lot better than going out of business due to customer dissatisfaction. Phil might have to reduce the number of products he has on offer, but again, that's probably a lot better than going out of business.

 

It's obvious there is a lot of demand for some of his products. Phil needs to recognize that fact and concentrate on fulfilling those needs. Frankly, if he doesn't, he's not running a real business.

 

Sorry for being so blunt.

 

Andy

[Torper]

I spoke with Phil at the Perth show.  He is aware of, and very worried, about the problems that have arisen and knows that he has made mistakes, usually because of inexperience and misplaced optimism.  It is quite clear that the business he took over was in a much more chaotic state than he anticipated. This was made worse by the fact that whatever Phil's strengths are, IT knowledge is not one of them and for some time he has been receiving only a fraction of the emails that have been sent to him.  Fortunately, as indicated above, he has now found a local IT company that will at least resolve the internet and email problems that have been dogging him and, as John (Hayfield) says, the next two months will hopefully give him some breathing space to catch up with outstanding orders.  Phil has made a substantial personal and financial investment in this business (including investment in new machinery) and is determined to turn it round - the alternative, from his point of view, is not worth thinking about.  He does believe, however, that there is now a light at the end of the tunnel and only hopes that people will stick with him in the meantime.

 

DT

[hayfield]

I sincerely hope you're right. This is a business that is almost essential to those that are modelling  in gauges other than 00 (or should that be OO?) but we were being told, "all will be well in a couple of months" well over a couple of months ago.

 

The one man band excuse doesn't hold water. I can think of many one man bands in the model railway trade that seem to manage quite adequately and one in particular springs to mind, in not only offering a very good service but expanding his range on an almost monthly basis.

 

P

 

 

P

 

Believe me Phil wants to sort out the issues, and is doing his best to do so. Loosing the Exactoscale range will in someways reduce his workload as the number of C&L 7 & 4 MM scale products is far less than the Exactoscale range.

 

I have to disagree with you about the one man band business, as most of these businesses have a much smaller product range and smaller sales, with the exception of a couple of traders, plus their businesses grew organically, rather than having to start from scratch a large unwieldy (and mixed up and miss labeled from previous business) product range 

Edited June 27, 2018 by hayfield

[hayfield]

I spoke with Phil at the Perth show.  He is aware of, and very worried, about the problems that have arisen and knows that he has made mistakes, usually because of inexperience and misplaced optimism.  It is quite clear that the business he took over was in a much more chaotic state than he anticipated. This was made worse by the fact that whatever Phil's strengths are, IT knowledge is not one of them and for some time he has been receiving only a fraction of the emails that have been sent to him.  Fortunately, as indicated above, he has now found a local IT company that will at least resolve the internet and email problems that have been dogging him and, as John (Hayfield) says, the next two months will hopefully give him some breathing space to catch up with outstanding orders.  Phil has made a substantial personal and financial investment in this business (including investment in new machinery) and is determined to turn it round - the alternative, from his point of view, is not worth thinking about.  He does believe, however, that there is now a light at the end of the tunnel and only hopes that people will stick with him in the meantime.

 

DT

 

 

Torper

 

Thank you, at last someone who has grasped the situation Phil has found himself in. Granted some of the issues have been self inflicted, but there is a limit what one person can achieve in a short period. And I guess despite others reservations about Phil's attendance at Perth, both you and your fellow modellers north of the border welcomed his appearance at the show   

[Rowsley17D]

Having met Phil at York and Wakefield shows to pick up orders and found him a nice guy, I have a suggestion that might help him indirectly and it may give him a bit more breathing space from filling very small orders.

 

Having built the formations (4-SF) I  need for my new layout, I have a small number of track-building components in stock and I am sure I cannot be the only one who has bits of C&L stuff lying around the railway bench "that might come in useful one day." If those who need small quantities of C&L items put their requests on the "Wanted" section of this website, RMwebbers like me just might be able to help them out.

[Porcy Mane]

 

Believe me Phil wants to sort out the issues, and is doing his best to do so. Loosing the Exactoscale range will in someways reduce his workload as the number of C&L 7 & 4 MM scale products is far less than the Exactoscale range.

 

Thanks for taking the time to reply. From your responses' it's obvious that you wish for Phil to succeed along with the rest of the railway modelling fraternity and there is nobody wishes the current proprietor more success than I but on current evidence  I worry for the survival of the business.

 

It seems that there was a shift in business focus whilst C&L was under the stewardship of Pete Llewellyn in that more general model railway products were being stocked (Peco etc) to the detriment of the more specialist and exclusive to C&L products.

 

Whether this was an attempt to keep the business sustainable at the size it had grown too; whether this was to make up for declining sales of C& L exclusives, whether this was just increase turnover/profit  or some other reason I could not say but speaking from experience it seemed the more specialist products were becoming neglected with more emphasis being given to the sale of the more general model railway items with those items being available from other vendors at a lower price.

 

It was obvious that Mr Llewellyn had far more than his share of bad luck compounded with his health issues having a greater impact on the running of the business that he would have wanted and I was delighted to hear that a buyer had come forward for C&L but surely a buyer making such a financial commitment must have realised what work was involved in being able to smoothly transition from one proprietor to the next whilst keeping the business ticking over?

 

 

 

I have to disagree with you about the one man band business, as most of these businesses have a much smaller product range and smaller sales, with the exception of a couple of traders, plus their businesses grew organically, rather than having to start from scratch a large unwieldy (and mixed up and miss labeled from previous business) product range 

 

C&L like most businesses servicing the predominantly 4mm scale model railway hobby are comparatively unique and service a "exclusively niche" sector of the hobby. Indeed that is why these businesses exist. Take a look at some of the product lists of some of these one man band operations. Their physical presence may not be as great as C&L at shows but that is down to the physical size of the components being sold.

 

Take one look behind Hi level models stand for instance. The general punter never sees bewildering array of components  held in drawers nor does the buyer see catalogued the individual worms, cogs, etches, grub screws etc etc that go to make up many of the multitude of different gearboxes on offer. That's before we include the individual components that go to make up complete loco and chassis kits.

 

247 Developments. Look through his list of nameplates alone. They may be small but it's no different from a stock control perspective. Hundreds, if not thousands of products on offer all that have to be managed.

 

Same with Alan Gibson with the added complication of Colin spending a great deal of time in his workshop keeping just keeping his trade customers satisfied.

 

Wizard Models. Probably the best example of an individual owning and selling multiple product lines covering most sectors of the model railway market and still managing to look laid back at exhibitions. I don't know how he manages it. Probably the closest we'll ever get to the legendary late Dave Cleal when he was able to run his business at 100%.

 

Granted some of the above can rely on friends/spouses/non business partners to help out some of the time but that is not different to C&L in its current state.

 

I take your point about these businesses growing organically but again that is no different to C&L. Indeed with the loss of Exactoscale, Peco and Carrs their product lines will be reduced significantly. Anyone who has ever ordered a complete pair of Exactoscale driving wheels with crankpins will understand why.

As regard starting from scratch. I don't dispute this is the case but surely Phil knew the state of play, in what condition the business was in and the work that was required to keep the business running before signing any contract of sale and handing over any money. As it's the genteel model railway trade one would expect the sale to be amicable but perhaps the equivalent of due diligence should have been carried out.

 

I can't help feeling that there has been a certain amount of naivety on behalf of the buyers' part. More of a case of a hobbyist putting his hard earned (or borrowed) cash were his mouth is, and stepping in to save an important business, whereas a hard headed business man would have taken one look at the C&L business and then walked away.

 

As I said at the start, I wish Phil the best in turning things around. I look forward to seeing an improved and healthier business in a few months time.

 

P

Edited June 27, 2018 by Porcy Mane

[chris p bacon]

As regard starting from scratch. I don't dispute this is the case but surely Phil knew the state of play, in what condition the business was in and the work that was required to keep the business running before signing any contract of sale and handing over any money. As it's the genteel model railway trade one would expect the sale to be amicable but perhaps the equivalent of due diligence should have been carried out.

 

I can't help feeling that there has been a certain amount of naivety on behalf of the buyers' part. More of a case of a hobbyist putting his hard earned (or borrowed) cash were his mouth is, and stepping in to save an important business, whereas a hard headed business man would have taken one look at the C&L business and then walked away.

 

As I said at the start, I wish Phil the best in turning things around. I look forward to seeing an improved and healthier business in a few months time.

 

P

 

 

The reality is that another sale did not go through, and Phil at the very last minute was the only one to put his hand in his pocket.  

 

If as you say a 'Hard Headed businessman' would have walked away, then C&L would have closed taking the product with it.   So far there's been 32 pages of everyone else telling him how he should run the business to either suit themselves or some perceived idea of how a one man band should run, and I'd imagine a thread where the product disappeared would run to 132 pages of angst and wailing about how they could have saved it.

 

The reality is that Phil owns C&L and is figuring out how to run it to suit him and his work/life balance,  if anyone else reckons they could do better, then make him an offer, if it's serious enough he might listen. 

[Torper]

Porcy Mane refers to a number of one-man businesses to which he compares C&L unfavourably.  But that's hardly fair to Phil.

 

The businesses referred to were either started by the founder from scratch, initially with a few products that built up over the years, or else were taken over many many years ago so that the owner has now had plenty of time to establish the business and his participation in it.  None of them were in Phil's position where he hadn't run a business before, was not awfully au fait with the state of C&L in spite of working for it, made a last minute decision to take it when no-one else would, and then had a whole load of largely unorganised products land in his store room.  I can only compare that with my own small internet business (non railway related); I started from scratch with a few products and then built up my range over the years as I became increasingly able to cope with it and the increased demand it brought.  Contrast that with the situation I would have found myself in had I instead had a whole load of products land on me together with an IT system I didn't understand and an email system that didn't work plus a load of customers who had been waiting not necessarily patiently for the business to resume.  I'd have probably thrown up my hands and walked away.  Let's just hope that Phil doesn't.  Having said that, if I was a customer who had paid money and not received my goods I would not be at all happy and I would hope that Phil will give these people his most urgent attention now that he has the time to do so.

 

DT