More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Worsdell forever]

Just come across a nice picture featuring a D299 laden with casks at Burton, of course. It's one with Ellis 10A axleboxes and the extra vertical ironwork at the end, which I think dates it to early 1890s. I was building one with the end strapping but the Archer rivets didn't stick to the bare microstrip. I've since primed it but not yet tried the rivet transfers again. Paul Gallon got this to work, so I'm wondering what trick I've missed?

A coat of Klear on first, a coat of primer would have needed glossing anyway, I think I put some on without it (forgot!) and it went ok.

[Compound2632]

A coat of Klear on first, a coat of primer would have needed glossing anyway, I think I put some on without it (forgot!) and it went ok.

 

I've glossed my primer. Working myself up to a round of transfers of all sorts. I have some old Slaters NER 20 ton hoppers to re-letter - thanks Paul!

[Lecorbusier]

Stephen,

 

Following on from our discussions elsewhere, I attach here a detail from drawing 213 (D305). The question I have relates to the sketched on Blocks. These are clearly a pencil later addition, though I have modelled them on my wagon. Do you think it might suggest that the later wagons to which the drawing relates might have been built with the later typical headstock design? as otherwise there would have been a conflict?

 

 

In other words might there have been a transitional design?

 

Also would axle boxes have been updated on wagons during maintenance/repairs as later designs came in?

 

[Compound2632]

On 23/12/2018 at 06:24, Lecorbusier said:

Stephen,

 

Following on from our discussions elsewhere, I attach here a detail from drawing 213 (D305). The question I have relates to the sketched on Blocks. These are clearly a pencil later addition, though I have modelled them on my wagon. Do you think it might suggest that the later wagons to which the drawing relates might have been built with the later typical headstock design? as otherwise there would have been a conflict?

 

6 TON LOW SIDED (3 PLANK) GOODS WAGON Diagram No.305 Drawing No.213 Dated 1877- copy.jpg

 

In other words might there have been a transitional design?

 

Also would axle boxes have been updated on wagons during maintenance/repairs as later designs came in?

 

There's a lot going on in pencil there. Not only the sketched-in block but also if you look closely you can see drawn in the squared end of the shorter standard headstock and also the arc drawn in and marked 11'6" - which I think is indicating the total width when both drop sides are lowered by 90 degrees. I've posted this before but for comparison, here's the equivalent section of Drawing 1143, showing that the angled headstock was originally drawn in then deleted in favour of the square ended 7'6" headstock:

 

 

I think this shows that the change in the headstock came about when construction of more low sided goods wagons was being considered in January 1897, after a ten-year gap since the last lot. The draughtsman, J.F. Earl, had the old drawing 213 in front of him. He'd been briefed to bring it up to the latest specification - Ellis 10A axleboxes etc. He started by drawing the slope-ended headstock. Maybe T.G. Clayton himself wandered by, or there was a general discussion among the drawing office staff. Someone said, why can't we use the standard headstock (as used on 60,000 D299 wagons and 15,000+ other coal, coke, covered, etc. wagons)? - lower first cost and ease of maintenance. This led to some doodling, not on Mr Earl's pristine new drawing but on the old drawing. Once the details had been sketched out, Mr Earl rubbed out what he'd drawn initially and carefully drew in the new arrangement, with the stop-blocks.

 

Notice also how drawing 1143 has subsequently been worked over in pencil and red ink to include modifications for later lots. These were working drawings!

 

As to upgrading axleboxes from the 8A type of the 1880s to the Ellis 10A used from, I think, c. 1889 up to the adoption of oil axleboxes c. 1905-7, it's perfectly possible - I don't think one sees the older sort in photos after c. 1907.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[Compound2632]

On 23/12/2018 at 08:37, Compound2632 said:

the standard headstock (as used on 60,000 D299 wagons and 15,000+ other coal, coke, covered, etc. wagons)

 

Oops... Not covered goods wagons. They had a different design of headstock, to suit the outside framing:

 

 

Extract from Drawing 1032, from the Midland Railway Study Centre collection. That J.F. Earl was the draughtsman for Drawing 1143 was gleaned by putting 1143 in the search box and checking Carriage & Wagon Register MR Drg No. at the Carriage & Wagon Register search page.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[billbedford]

Also would axle boxes have been updated on wagons during maintenance/repairs as later designs came in?

 

 

The axleboxes would have been changed when newer wheelsets were fitted, the 8A and 10A boxes had different sized journals.

[Lecorbusier]

The axleboxes would have been changed when newer wheelsets were fitted, the 8A and 10A boxes had different sized journals.

I suppose my question would be how regularly might this happen .... I have read about the need for replacement sets due to cracks etc found by the wheel tappers - would these have just been repaired and like substituted for like, or would the chance have been taken to update?

[Compound2632]

I hope your stockings will be loaded high!

 

 

Merry Christmas to you all! 

Edited December 24, 2018 by Compound2632

[Spitfire2865]

I suppose my question would be how regularly might this happen .... I have read about the need for replacement sets due to cracks etc found by the wheel tappers - would these have just been repaired and like substituted for like, or would the chance have been taken to update?

I admit Im no expert, but knowing similar practices in the mil defense industry, if it works, there is NO reason to improve it unless absolutely necessary due to exterior restrictions or requirements. And very often the cost for the upgrade is unattractive compared to just fixing whats wrong and getting it back out to use. Ive seen outdated designs come for repair just to get a single new part, a quick repaint, and ship right back out to use.

Id assume upping a rating 2 tons by changing bearings would be a task left to last. An 8 ton wagon on the road is a lot more valuable than a 8 ton in line for overhaul. So Id think once a wagon comes in for a relivery (7 years approx), wreck repair, or major overhaul due to rust or rot, it probably would stay as an 8 ton for as long as it was usable.

So you could reasonably expect a good condition 8 ton wagon to last perhaps a decade after introduction of the larger journals for new builds.

 

Though of course there are always exceptions, like that LNW low sided wagon in 1939 with 1908 livery.

[brian777999]

I hope your stockings will be loaded high!

 

D299 loaded.jpg

 

Merry Christmas to you all! 

 

How did they get away with loads like that ? It does not look like anything is tied down so surely everything on top would have slid off at the first curve ?

[Regularity]

How did they get away with loads like that ? It does not look like anything is tied down so surely everything on top would have slid off at the first curve ?

They may have taken the photo to show how not to do it, or what it looks like before they put a canvas sheet over it and roped it down.

Not sure about curves being a problem: things may have shaken loose on the first rough movement in shunting...

[Compound2632]

There is a whole series of photos taken by the official photographer (so appearing in the Derby Registers) showing loaded wagons. Sometimes they're not even Midland wagons, if it was a type the Midland didn't own; there's a well known one of a L&YR 1-plank wagon loaded with cotton bales. What I've never looked into is whether they were all taken at the same time or whether the example I posted was in the "how to do it" or "how not to do it" series! I suppose there must have been a pamphlet produced for staff training. Perhaps the Midland Railway Study Centre holds a copy?

 

(I notice Dave Harris, the Study Centre Coordinator, has chosen a nice coloured postcard of No. 2632 for his Christmas greeting on the home page!)

Edited December 26, 2018 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

The Derby Registers list a sequence of official photos of wagons "showing method of loading" ref. DY2483 - DY2506. Where dates are given they are Mon 9 Feb, Sat 14 Feb, or Sun 8 March 1903, so spot-on for my period of interest. The following images are in the public domain under a Creative Commons Attribution Non-commercial Share-alike licence.

 

D299 No. 138073, so evidently this IS how to load your wagon - with low density stuff like empty casks - as Reg said, it would then be sheeted, as would most of the following:

 

 

D299 No. 88181, demonstrating casks [sic] or boxes:

 

 

The way the boxes are stacked, with the outer ones sloping in, tallies well with a contemporary description of wagon loading at the LNWR's Crewe tranship shed. Note the L&Y wagon on the right, with the triangle-in-circle mark - presumably in the unvarnished wood "livery".

 

D299 No. 37195, with rather randomly loaded casks:

 

 

This wagon has 8A axleboxes, indicating an 1880s build date, as does the D299 in the right background of the photo of No. 138073, and possibly the one on the left. [Lecorbusier to note!]

 

D305 No. 14211:

 

 

This is an example of a 3-plank wagon to Drg 213, built between 1877 and 1887 - note the extended headstocks, 8A axleboxes, and numberplate to the left of the solebar centre-line [pace Lecorbusier].

 

Finally, some pipes from the Staveley Co. The Midland didn't have a suitable wagon, so a Great Western one has been borrowed - perhaps the load is being consigned to a Great Western station. With its cast iron number and G.W.R plates, this wagon is presumably in red. The only other non-Midland wagon in this series is a LNW wagon.

 

 

There's a further series of wagon photos from early 1920; some of these show methods of loading, others damage to wagons from loads that have shifted in transit. There are many more foreign wagons in that series. 

Edited September 5, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[Lecorbusier]

another of my 'idiot' questions ...

 

When you read that a brake van is either a 10T or 15T or 20T what does this relate to? Normally it would relate in wagon terms to the loading capacity of the vehicle but I assume this is not the case with a Brake van. Also on a wagon you have the tare (unloaded weight). 

 

A quick lesson would be much appreciated.

 

oh .... an i hope everyone had a good christmas.

[Northroader]

Brake van weight is just what reading you’d get if you put it on a weighbridge. It was usually rounded to a nominal weight of a round figure in tons, although you could get fairly close to this with the actual weight, as a lot of brake vans had pocket inside the frames which would get stuff like iron punchings from the holes in boiler plates for instance, to bring the weight up. The weight was needed on an unbraked (ie without air or vacuum brakes) train as it related to what brake force you would get if the guard screwed down his brake on the van,

[Regularity]

It relates to how heavy it is. (!)

 

The heavier it is, the more effective it is in applying brake force, or at least drag, to a train. One of the roles of the brakevan and guard was to keep 3-link couplings taught, to prevent breakages from coupling snatch. Plenty of goods trains charged through the up line at Northampton Castle at maximum permitted line speed (35 mph, iirc) to get up speed for the long 1 in 200 climb up to Roade, and sparks were often seen flying from the guard’s van wheels and brakes as the guard tried to screw them on as tightly as possibly without wearing flats on the wheels as he maintained tension on the train. With some of the long coal trains, a 10ton van would have been fairly useless. Despite that, trains were often down to a crawl by the time they reached the top.

[Lecorbusier]

It relates to how heavy it is. (!)

 

The heavier it is, the more effective it is in applying brake force, or at least drag, to a train. One of the roles of the brakevan and guard was to keep 3-link couplings taught, to prevent breakages from coupling snatch. Plenty of goods trains charged through the up line at Northampton Castle at maximum permitted line speed (35 mph, iirc) to get up speed for the long 1 in 200 climb up to Roade, and sparks were often seen flying from the guard’s van wheels and brakes as the guard tried to screw them on as tightly as possibly without wearing flats on the wheels as he maintained tension on the train. With some of the long coal trains, a 10ton van would have been fairly useless. Despite that, trains were often down to a crawl by the time they reached the top.

That is interesting .... sounds like the guards job was pretty skilled. On the Monsaldale line I read that generally 20T brakes were standard ...... presumably this was due to the gradient in both directions? 

[Regularity]

Gradient and load would determine the requirement.

 

Yes, a guard’s job was very skilled, and quite dangerous, too. Imagine a train starting by “picking up” each wagon one at a time (I.e. all wagons buffered up, couplings loose and not taught. As the train accelerates and the momentum increases, the further down the train, the greater the lurch (rapid acceleration), with the biggest being the last vehicle. An unprepared guard, and sometimes a well-prepared guard could be thrown from one end of the van to the other. Broken limbs were not unknown.

Inexperienced guards - say standing in for a sick colleague - who lacked detailed route knowledge would often be told by experienced drivers to leave the brake alone. Applying it at the wrong time in the wrong place could have catastrophic consequences.

[PenrithBeacon]

One thing not mentioned above is that a longish uncoupled train could be behind the apex of one gradient and the rising above the bottom of another. Also many pre-group locomotives had horrendous brakes anyway.

Edited December 27, 2018 by PenrithBeacon

[Regularity]

One thing not mentioned above is that a longish uncoupled train could be behind the apex of one gradient and the rising above the bottom of another. Also many pre-group locomotives had horrendous brakes anyway.

I believe that was just as true with EE class 40 diesel electrics, and they were definitely not a pre-grouping engine! Vacuum brakes were not rated highly by drivers, either.

 

A late friend who was a railwayman told me that some drivers used to boast about the injuries they had inflicted on goods guards. He was not impressed - to put it mildly. (Not so much a case that children or those of a nervous disposition might read, just that anyone might read it. Not known for holding back on his language...)

[Buhar]

The route to seniority for footplate staff had goods work below passenger in the link system. I've an idea it was similar for guards. However the skill in managing an unfitted goods train for those at either end was probably greater. I wonder if age had anything to do with it? If you were in your fifties hauling on brake wheels would take it out of you.

[Lecorbusier]

I thought i would load this D305 Midland 3 plank wagon I have been having a first go at scratch building as I would love suggestions as to how I might better model the chain and locking peg for the drop sides in 4mm scale. I have posted elsewhere on the web and am now aware of the need to reposition the name plate etc on the sole bars. Any other suggestions for adjustment/improvement gratefully accepted. Still very much a steep learning curve.

 

 

[jwealleans]

For the chain, try the very fine copper strands in multicore wire wound round itself in a pair. I think that's a Geoff Kent or John Hayes idea.

 

 

The chains at the bottom of the bolster pins are done in that way.

 

 

The GN cattle wagon has brass wire which I think is sold for picture hanging - it's coarser and harder to coil, but stronger.

Edited December 28, 2018 by jwealleans

[Lecorbusier]

For the chain, try the very fine copper strands in multicore wire wound round itself in a pair. I think that's a Geoff Kent or John Hayes idea.

 

 

The chains at the bottom of the bolster pins are done in that way.

 

 

The GN cattle wagon has brass wire which I think is sold for picture hanging - it's coarser and harder to coil, but stronger.

Thanks Jonathan .... I don't suppose you have any higher res images of the details do you .... so I can get a clearer idea of how you modelled them .... looks like just what I am hoping to achieve.

 

Tim

[jwealleans]

I'm afraid I don't, Tim and I'm not in a position to take any just at the moment. From memory I found a piece of 240V flex which was made up of very fine copper strands - cut a short length, fold it back on itself and coil it - I generally hold one end in a pair of pliers and twist the other using a 1mm drill in my fingers. A shallow .5mm hole usually serves to anchor it but you can just glue it onto the surface when it's cut to length and bent to shape.

Edited December 28, 2018 by jwealleans