Crowdfunded GNR N2, and Quadarts. N and OO Gauge

[chris p bacon]

Part of that diligence is understanding the overall economics. How many need to sell for each stage to go ahead, where does any gap funding come etc so as the investor knows what risk they are taking when they part with cash for their upfront order.

Like David above I'm not wishing to sound negative but realistic.

 

Taking costings and pricing as an example you posted that you were looking at costings but as yet I'd be surprised if you had an idea of how many units you were looking to produce and sell.  In your first post you suggested that you would like to produce the N2 for £85, this is a retail price so the amount you would receive would be nearer £70, take out shipping, VAT etc and you're likely to be down to £55,  at this price you're going to have to shift 2000+ just to get minimal costs back.

If you take the DJM J94 as an example, it's a lovely model and you can get it for £95, Dave has produced/sold about 3000 which sounds great but this has been 3 years in planning and production and has been a full time job promoting, it's most probably covered it's costs and made a profit but it was a huge gamble.

 DJM is a known within the hobby coming from a manufacturer and having a working knowledge of production in China so he has credibility. I think you have a long way to go yet before you are at the same stage where you can start asking for expressions of interest and asking people to put their money forward. 

 

I would wonder about your choice of model too. The N2 in OO has been around for a few years, for those that want a simple model it does the job and can be purchased cheaply either new or 2nd hand, For a bit more detail and better running there is the Comet chassis to put under it, this raises the price but for a better model.  Why do you think the N2 will be a good model to risk £100,000+ production on?

 

Being polite, I think you have a lot more work to do.

 

Being harsh, I don't think this will go anywhere. 

[grahame]

I would wonder about your choice of model too. The N2 in OO has been around for a few years, for those that want a simple model it does the job and can be purchased cheaply either new or 2nd hand, For a bit more detail and better running there is the Comet chassis to put under it, this raises the price but for a better model.  Why do you think the N2 will be a good model to risk £100,000+ production on?

 

 

I get the impression that the initial/main target market for the N2 is the N gauge/2mm enthusiast where there hasn't been an alternative RTR version around for years and that an OO version is piggybacking on that (probably using the same research, CAD, promotion, marketing, etc).

 

Additionally manufacture of the models will only proceed if there is sufficient interest/orders through their crowd-funding approach. Therefore, that sort of comment (about choice of model) is probably irrelevant and will only serve to undermine the project.

 

G.

Edited March 14, 2017 by grahame

[chris p bacon]

I get the impression that the initial/main target market for the N2 is the N gauge/2mm enthusiast where there hasn't been an alternative RTR version around for years and that an OO version is piggybacking on that (probably using the same research, CAD, promotion, marketing, etc).

 

Additionally manufacture of the models will only proceed if there is sufficient interest/orders through their crowd-funding approach. Therefore, that sort of comment (about choice of model) is probably irrelevant and will only serve to undermine the project.

 

G.

 

If one person asking a question about the choice of model undermines a £100,000+ project,  then it isn't much of a serious project in the first place. 

 

After an announcement 6 months ago, wouldn't you expect at least some detail by now if you are expected to part with money beforehand? And don't forget that with crowdfunding there is no expectation of success or anything for your money after time has elapsed.  You put the money up for the research and CAD but to get it to production you'll need either 1000+ investors or it folds.

[hiffano]

Hi Chris, thank you for the comments. I did read them first off in a negative light, but re reading, i'm not so grumpy now, always pays to have a ponder.

 

so, I do have some drawings that have been provided to the factory via an "established" UK designer/producer of British outline models. as things are still at the "dirty end" I've not named them, but will do in due course. the drawings at this stage are not owned by us, hence why the factory have seen them, and you haven't. it's not a ner ner ner i can see them and you can't  thing, purely down to copyright issues, and they are drawings that a model can be developed from, in conjunction with 3D scans. The drawings as it stands would not show you a great deal about the model. 

 

6 months, wow, it really IS that long. I've spent a good 5 months of that waiting for information, approval and agreements for various things. I'm surprised, and a little frustrated at how slowly things can move, indeed one thing that needed bottoming out in a January meeting was delayed until July, so on that i'm going to take a leap of faith. I have never provided a timescale as I am aware how awkward that can be, just look at Dapols 142! and the Farish Class 40. And they are financed by established big players. 

 

So, financial aspects and wishful thinking.... you betcha i'm wishful thiking, but if no one ever dd that, would anyone ever make anything?, I don't have the cash to throw at the model, that's why It will be crowd funded. Step one once the niggly stuff is sorted is to get an expression of interest from as many people as possible IF enough people show interest, we take a deposit, and start on the model development. IF we don't get enough interest, then much like the Revolution class twenty something (ok complete mindblank moment here) then it won't happen.

 

how many to make. 

well this is where the expressions of interest come in, and here I have worked backwards. I have looked at some comparable models when looking at the N2 in N gauge, gone for a competitive price, and worked backward to establish a minimum run needed to cover costs, and vat, packaging, postage and so on. as part of the process, if for instance the expression of interest came up short, we could conceivably give people the opportunity to pay more and go ahead, or call it a day and move on. It's worth noting that the Pendolino did NOT meet the minimum expressions of interest, but Rapido bumped up the number themselves.

 

regarding not knowing me, fair enough, I personally don't know Ben or Mike, but they are proposing models I want, and I will take a gamble on that. and if you are ever in Manchester, happy to meet for a pint.  I hope once the full details are out, then people will consider that with the N2 and Quadarts. Why this model? well, why not. It was conceived as an N Gauge only model, but if we do a 3d scan, why not bring up to date the offering for OO. Without going out there and asking every N gauge and OO modeler, or doing "representative" sample's of the market, you can never be 100%, but then neither are Dapol, Farish or Revoution for that matter, and i'm sure any number of OO models have tanked over the years. 

 

questions re teak finish and articulation, may be a bit ahead of me right now, i'll get that inf in due course.

 

At the end of he day Chris, we can all sit back and wait ten years for an established company to finally produce a model we want, or we can make some inquiries, work out the money and see how many people want to jump on board. You may be right and it will come to nothing, but at least i'll have a go. I'm not even hugely bothered about profit, it will be about saying "i made that" (ok i project managed that with some very experienced help... but that's not so catchy)

 

thanks 

[chris p bacon]

Thanks for the reply It's easier to pick out a few bits or I'll ramble on.

 

 

 I did read them first off in a negative light, but re reading, i'm not so grumpy now, always pays to have a ponder.

When embarking on any project with a huge outlay you have to understand that what may seem a negative question is just that, a question. If you have an answer then there isn't a problem. You'll get many more if the project goes ahead.

 

so, I do have some drawings that have been provided to the factory via an "established" UK designer/producer of British outline models. as things are still at the "dirty end" I've not named them, but will do in due course. the drawings at this stage are not owned by us, hence why the factory have seen them, and you haven't. it's not a ner ner ner i can see them and you can't  thing, purely down to copyright issues, and they are drawings that a model can be developed from, in conjunction with 3D scans. The drawings as it stands would not show you a great deal about the model. 

I Understand this if it has already been drawn by another, the question would be where did the original information come from, was it the GA?

 

6 months, wow, it really IS that long. I've spent a good 5 months of that waiting for information, approval and agreements for various things. I'm surprised, and a little frustrated at how slowly things can move, indeed one thing that needed bottoming out in a January meeting was delayed until July, so on that i'm going to take a leap of faith. I have never provided a timescale as I am aware how awkward that can be, just look at Dapols 142! and the Farish Class 40. And they are financed by established big players. 

I am not surprised at the length of time, I am surprised at how little interest there has been since your initial announcment, It's not quite comparable but 24hrs ago DJM announced the King in 2mm and is already taking orders. I know this is a left over from Hattons but it shows the difference between one who has produced an item and one who hasn't, you've got an uphill struggle to prove that you can produce something of quality. Timescale can be a fluid thing but for anyone parting with money they're going to want to know whether it's worth their while investing.

 

 

So, financial aspects and wishful thinking.... you betcha i'm wishful thiking, but if no one ever dd that, would anyone ever make anything?, I don't have the cash to throw at the model, that's why It will be crowd funded. Step one once the niggly stuff is sorted is to get an expression of interest from as many people as possible IF enough people show interest, we take a deposit, and start on the model development. IF we don't get enough interest, then much like the Revolution class twenty something (ok complete mindblank moment here) then it won't happen.

A lot of people don't understand crowdfunding and the risks associated with it.

 

how many to make.well this is where the expressions of interest come in, and here I have worked backwards. I have looked at some comparable models when looking at the N2 in N gauge, gone for a competitive price, and worked backward to establish a minimum run needed to cover costs, and vat, packaging, postage and so on. as part of the process, if for instance the expression of interest came up short, we could conceivably give people the opportunity to pay more and go ahead, or call it a day and move on. It's worth noting that the Pendolino did NOT meet the minimum expressions of interest, but Rapido bumped up the number themselves.

This is where I think you are muddled, either you are going to make a model to a price or to a certain quality.  I'm also not sure that you should or could be estimating costs 2-3 years in advance across 2 currencies and 2 continents.

 

regarding not knowing me, fair enough, I personally don't know Ben or Mike, but they are proposing models I want, and I will take a gamble on that. and if you are ever in Manchester, happy to meet for a pint.  I hope once the full details are out, then people will consider that with the N2 and Quadarts.

Ben and Mike have been quite visible in the production of Revolution and getting projects off the ground.

 

Why this model? well, why not.

Maybe some market research and looking at the wish list polls?

 

 i'm sure any number of OO models have tanked over the years. 

They probably have, but you're asking for peoples money to do this not as a company with a large product range to spread any losses over. 

 

questions re teak finish and articulation, may be a bit ahead of me right now, i'll get that inf in due course.

But surely that was part of your costings?

 

At the end of he day Chris, we can all sit back and wait ten years for an established company to finally produce a model we want, or we can make some inquiries, work out the money and see how many people want to jump on board. You may be right and it will come to nothing, but at least i'll have a go.

I've been self employed for 30+ years and I am used to taking risks.

 

 I'm not even hugely bothered about profit, it will be about saying "i made that" (ok i project managed that with some very experienced help... but that's not so catchy)

You'll need to clarify this, you are either crowdfunding to share the cost of R&D & production across many shareholders,  or you are seeking funding to do it yourself and to make profit. If the latter then any loss is borne by yourself.

 

As a keen modeller of the GN (OO) I want to see items produced, but I still think you've a way to go to inspire confidence in the project and the way it's going to be funded. This is my personal view although I realise that others may differ and say It's negative.

[grahame]

If one person asking a question about the choice of model undermines a £100,000+ project,  then it isn't much of a serious project in the first place. 

 

After an announcement 6 months ago, wouldn't you expect at least some detail by now if you are expected to part with money beforehand? And don't forget that with crowdfunding there is no expectation of success or anything for your money after time has elapsed.  You put the money up for the research and CAD but to get it to production you'll need either 1000+ investors or it folds.

 

You've obviously missed the point of my comments in that you appeared to have misunderstood the market for the model in that is not just OO.

 

And no-one is asking you or anyone to part with money before the details are made known. I'm sure they will be published when available and when the project manager decides to open up the crowdfunding pre-order/deposit facility. As has already been mentioned they have been waiting on details.

 

G.

[TrevorP1]

I've just discovered this topic today and will keep in touch via this thread.

 

I'm just starting on a layout (the boards are nearly finished) that will require at least a couple of N2s. This would have meant updating the Hornby/Mainline model chassis and detail wise but if this project comes off there is potentially another way...

 

I'm in no rush but very interested and wish the project well.

 

Just one thing in the back of my mind though and absolutely not wanting to pour cold water...  If Hornby wanted to they could potentially get an updated model into production to go with the L1, Gresley and Thompson coaches.

[hiffano]

Chris, you are the little voice on my Shoulder, that nagging doubt. and I suspect you will keep me on my toes. 

sometimes i think we all need that :-)

 

I'm not going to go through all the further points right now, otherwise we will be too and frowing all night. 

 

re the finish and articulation on the coaches. The coach quote came late in the day after some advice to look at producing these. I've barely had time to consider this product, hence why I have not listed a spec or cost.  rather i have let people know that there is work in progress to produce these. 

 

a number of your other points are valid to a greater or lesser degree, as you have said, you don't know me, and just because some things haven't been explicitly stated, does not mean they are not done or understood. 

 

the difference between the King and these, is the king has reached a go live, and has a CAM that can be used from another project (the OO version for hattons), so can move quicker. no Guarantees that it will happen of course, but i'm having a shirtbutton one.

[chris p bacon]

You've obviously missed the point of my comments in that you appeared to have misunderstood the market for the model in that is not just OO..

I quite possibly missed your point as the interest seems to be 50/50 N/OO version,  but having looked seriously at manufacture of coaching stock some time ago, there is quite a difference in producing the same item in 2 different scales. Much as I would like another set of quad arts I would be surprised if they were a realistic production option unless done as a short run of resin castings.

 

I shall step away from this as I am unlikely to order and I'll only be seen as negative when asking questions.

[dpgibbons]

All perfectly valid questions in my view. If Hiffano has the answers then great, but if not then better no project than a failed one that leaves everyone out of pocket and poisons the well for others. 

[hiffano]

I quite possibly missed your point as the interest seems to be 50/50 N/OO version,  but having looked seriously at manufacture of coaching stock some time ago, there is quite a difference in producing the same item in 2 different scales. Much as I would like another set of quad arts I would be surprised if they were a realistic production option unless done as a short run of resin castings.

 

I shall step away from this as I am unlikely to order and I'll only be seen as negative when asking questions.Not at all

 

Not at all, as i said, after Digesting it properly I was fine, I do understand your concerns. Stick around, you could be useful :-)

[Phatbob]

With regard to the 00 quadart set, are you going to produce and "all third/second" set, a "composite set", or both?
I've had a thought regarding articulation of these coaches, that would enable a protypically close spacing of the coaches, while still being able to negotiate unprototypically tight curves.  A cam machanism such as that used by Bachmann, Hornby, ROCO et al for close coupling with NEM boxes, could be designed to enable the coaches to share a bogie while alomost touching on straight track, but their outer edges would move appart on curves.  This would enable them to get around tighter curves, without the need for a huge gap between the coaches, at least while on a straight. 

[grahame]

It's​ over two months since the last post on this thread.

 

Is there a progress/update report on these projects, particularly the N gauge ones?

 

Cheers.

G.

[EHSUK2001]

It's​ over two months since the last post on this thread.

 

Is there a progress/update report on these projects, particularly the N gauge ones?

 

Cheers.

G.

[EHSUK2001]

Total pie-in-the-sky this one. We don't know who is behind it or if a company has even been formed to progress it. No website either.

 

RTR model production, even by crowdfunding, is a big boys game and this gentleman, who ever he is, is clearly out of his depth and under-resourced.

 

Edward S

[Roy L S]

There doesn't appear anything is to be lost by giving Hiffano a chance. If anyone is taking a risk it is him.

 

I am not sure what the relevance having no website is. There are plenty of businesses like Union Mills who do not have one, and conversely some where there has been a website saying all manner of things but delivering nothing!

 

Regards

 

Roy

[thegreenhowards]

With regard to the 00 quadart set, are you going to produce and "all third/second" set, a "composite set", or both?

I've had a thought regarding articulation of these coaches, that would enable a protypically close spacing of the coaches, while still being able to negotiate unprototypically tight curves.  A cam machanism such as that used by Bachmann, Hornby, ROCO et al for close coupling with NEM boxes, could be designed to enable the coaches to share a bogie while alomost touching on straight track, but their outer edges would move appart on curves.  This would enable them to get around tighter curves, without the need for a huge gap between the coaches, at least while on a straight.

 

We really need both types of quad art, as they always ran in 8 car formations with one of each type in the rake. They were fixed in their formations with one set number covering the whole 8 car rake. I like the articulation idea, but it depends on the market. My Kirk set runs fine using their articulation system with minimal gaps between coaches, but I have a minimum radius of 30". I don't suppose it would go round Hornby set track!

 

I need a second set and a decent N2, so I'm interested if and when it happens.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[Richard Battersby]

Is there any news on this project?   

[Colin_McLeod]

I would be interested in an 00 quad art at a reasonable price and level of confidence.

Edited June 24, 2017 by Colin_McLeod

[Hilux5972]

Nothing on the Facebook page since September last year.

[chris p bacon]

Maybe the reality of costs has struck.

 

This is not meant to be a criticism.

[Colin_McLeod]

Nothing on the Facebook page since September last year.

No so. There has been activity on Facebook up to 6th June.

[DougN]

I would be interested in an 00 quad art at a reasonable price and level of confidence.

Well Colin I have been building a Ian Kirk Kit which I have had for years. I am not suggesting this is cheap solution to a "Quad Art" infact I think it is quite an expensive little beast! So far this is what I have used/ Bought in-

1 Kirk kit  (52 Quid, online price though I have had it for years) 

2 1 Full pack of Hornby coach wheels  (say 12.5Quid) 

3 2 Full packs of MJT roof top ventalators (say 8 quid)

4 4 full packs of MJT truss rod underframes (Say 44 Quid)

5 1 pack of MJT Sprung buffers  (say 4 quid)

6 4 packs (could be more) of Ratio Coach seating (the kirk ones had gone west years ago)

 

So all in less paint, transfers, time, effort, sundry wire and any other bits this little lot comes in at 120Quid (  other than a note to my self NEVER EVER work this out again  ) I think anyone contemplating doing one in ready to run should be looking at around 140 to 160Quid in RTR form and may be more depending on the volume. (looking at Hornby's discounted pricing) 

 

I am not sure what the UK market is like but if it is anything like the Melbourne market where at certain exhibitions I have seen people walking out with bags groning they will have spent a fortune to get the train they wanted. 2 of these at 300Quid plus a loco probably doesnt work out too bad. Even say a N7 from Oxford at 170(with sound) and 1 set at 150 would be an impressive train and really only 2 pieces of rolling stock. 

 

Keeping this all in the realms of reality is difficult as people will spend what they can afford but pitching a new product at these levels is confronting for a lot of people. If we were to look at the blue pullman or other limited edition release vs the suggestion of a quad art I think it would stack up. For an every day range, "Hornby/Bachmann" I doubt the ongoing sales would be there BUT the  plus side is you can get GNR with fox bogies, ER with Gresley Bogies, GNR with Gresley Bogies, in teak, pregroup just, LNER teak, war time brown (ok so grotty it didnt appear to be finished in any way) and BR liveries there is enough options to keep the sales for a few years. 

 

Any how would I be interested in another set... probably, Just dont tell SWMBO....   

 

[Horsetan]

....Keeping this all in the realms of reality is difficult ....

 

Understatement of the year.

[DougN]

Bit harsh there Horse, the good old economics 101 and supply demand vs price point define this. If some one was to say the Quad art was to be 400 quid which is not too bad when compared to the latest limited edition of the LNER dynamometer coach is. Would people spend this type of money? Of course some will. Well if the price point is 240quid which is the same as Hornby teaks at hattons. Is this the point that this crowd funded/ business proposal should be looking at?

 

What volume should be considered as a first run say 2000 units of each livery. So if we have LNER, and say 2 br versions. That would be 6000units at 240quid = 1,440,000. Less vat &a business/ profit works out at 1,000,000 to pay for all the development, manufacturing packaging design etc. is this reasonable and who would wants to risk about a mil on a venture like this?