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Model Rail/Rapido Trains GER/LNER 'J70' 0-6-0T 'Project Toby'


dibber25
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Black side frames with red buffer beams in the books. So BR livery.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Toby-Tram-Engine-Railway-No-7-x/dp/0434966754

 

 

Jason

 

SS, I'm afraid your post simply demonstrates the need to undertake proper prototype research before posting!

 

You have linked to a picture of Toby before he and Henrietta were purchased by the Fat Controller and taken to Sodor.  In service with the North West Region, his wood was painted brown and his skirts, blue, not dissimilar from the original GE livery.  Otherwise, pre-rescue, Toby would have been just another BR-liveried J70, except, of course, actually, according to Rev. Awdry, he was a G15/Y6 0-4-0!

Edited by Edwardian
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I may well be interested in buying one of these, and the very best of luck with the project in any case, but I wonder whether I can ask a question, on the basis of the pictures in MR 237.  What is the difference between "partial skirts" (e.g. MR-201 and MR-210) and "no skirts" (e.g. MR-203 MR-208)?

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I was the one who pointed out it was a Y6 in the original thread.

 

But show me a picture of Toby from the original books that have him any other colour than the one I posted. Can't find one, and all other pictures show the side skirts to be grey. But I think that's because black doesn't show up very well in a picture. In all the C Reginald Dalby paintings they are still black even after the number 7 appears. Also black in the TV series.

 

 

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=toby+the+tram+engine&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwis98SlrN7UAhUhLcAKHcbeDRAQ_AUIBigB&biw=1366&bih=651

 

 

 

Jason

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I may well be interested in buying one of these, and the very best of luck with the project in any case, but I wonder whether I can ask a question, on the basis of the pictures in MR 237.  What is the difference between "partial skirts" (e.g. MR-201 and MR-210) and "no skirts" (e.g. MR-203 MR-208)?

 

I think MR 203 is a mistake and should say "partial skirts". Or the photo is wrong for the description.

 

I'm assuming that "partial skirts" means still with cowcatcher, but side frames removed. Whilst "no skirts" mean that all the skirts have gone including cowcatcher.

 

 

Although how many cows they managed to catch rather than mangle is open to question.   :jester: 

 

 

Jason

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I think MR 203 is a mistake and should say "partial skirts". Or the photo is wrong for the description.

 

I'm assuming that "partial skirts" means still with cowcatcher, but side frames removed. Whilst "no skirts" mean that all the skirts have gone including cowcatcher.

 

 

Although how many cows they managed to catch rather than mangle is open to question.   :jester:

 

 

Jason

 

I think you translate "partial" to "a bit of" skirt.

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I think MR 203 is a mistake and should say "partial skirts". Or the photo is wrong for the description.

 

I'm assuming that "partial skirts" means still with cowcatcher, but side frames removed. Whilst "no skirts" mean that all the skirts have gone including cowcatcher.

 

 

Although how many cows they managed to catch rather than mangle is open to question.   :jester:

 

 

Jason

 

 

Thanks; I was thinking along those lines myself.  i quite fancy one with cowcatchers (to show it's a tram) but without side plates so that the valve gear can be seen.

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I was the one who pointed out it was a Y6 in the original thread.

 

But show me a picture of Toby from the original books that have him any other colour than the one I posted. Can't find one, and all other pictures show the side skirts to be grey. But I think that's because black doesn't show up very well in a picture. In all the C Reginald Dalby paintings they are still black even after the number 7 appears. Also black in the TV series.

 

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=toby+the+tram+engine&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwis98SlrN7UAhUhLcAKHcbeDRAQ_AUIBigB&biw=1366&bih=651

 

 

 

Jason

As a devout follower of the Railway Series I assume that you are referring to the first 26 books when you say 'original' - I.e. written by the good Reverend himself? If you are then I am sorry but you are sorely mistaken!

 

Post book 7 we know that Toby is repainted into North Western blue and chocolate - as evidenced by artwork in the following books:

 

No.16 Branch Line Engines

No.18 Stepney the Bluebell Engine

No.26 Tramway Engines

 

Certainly the last one should be clear as Toby features in most of the stories...

 

In fact having just checked my copy of No.7 Toby the Tram Engine there is a rather nice illustration of Toby, in blue and chocolate doubleheading a train with a well known blue tank engine!

Edited by NeilHB
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In fact having just checked my copy of No.7 Toby the Tram Engine there is a rather nice illustration of Toby, in blue and chocolate doubleheading a train with a well known blue tank engine!

On page 46 of my March 1961 Fourth Impression, the Fat Controller says "Toby shall have a coat of paint - chocolate and blue I think." Up to that point he has grey skirts, then in the next chapter he's clearly seen double heading with Thomas in chocolate and blue, as Neil says.

 

As to which class he is, none of the illustrations in No. 7 show any wheels, but the silhouette on the hard cover shows him with 6 wheels!

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A prototype question for those conversant with matters post-1948; would Rev Awdry have encountered any Y6s?  I rather doubt it. The last pair were, I believe, withdrawn in 1952, but I understand that the class had long since departed the W&U.

 

I suspect that literary Toby was based upon the Rev's experience of J70s on the W&U, but, when it came to his model Toby, he had a Y6 drawing to hand.

 

Perhaps one better versed in matters Sudrian than I could confirm? 

 

On that basis, I had rather assumed Toby could either.  Anyhow, I shall stick to my old Ks J70/C53 and, if I need another, there is Silver Fox and a 3D print, but really, my other Tobys will be Y6/G15s.  I believe a member of this parish is in the process of producing a 3D-print Y6/G15.  If so, I will have several, and may even include Toby!  

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I take it you have all sent an email to Model Rail......

 

First thing I did this morning, although it really just repeated the one I sent when they started the project and wanted our input on liveries ;)

Alex

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If the demand is there then they may well do one in GER.

 

Don't forget they added at least two extra USA tanks to the original list because of demand. The K&WVR and Maunsell ones I think it was. I also believe they are possibly going to do another run of Sentinels.

 

 

Jason

 

We can hope :)

Alex

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A prototype question for those conversant with matters post-1948; would Rev Awdry have encountered any Y6s?  I rather doubt it. The last pair were, I believe, withdrawn in 1952, but I understand that the class had long since departed the W&U.

 

I suspect that literary Toby was based upon the Rev's experience of J70s on the W&U, but, when it came to his model Toby, he had a Y6 drawing to hand.

 

Perhaps one better versed in matters Sudrian than I could confirm? 

 

On that basis, I had rather assumed Toby could either.  Anyhow, I shall stick to my old Ks J70/C53 and, if I need another, there is Silver Fox and a 3D print, but really, my other Tobys will be Y6/G15s.  I believe a member of this parish is in the process of producing a 3D-print Y6/G15.  If so, I will have several, and may even include Toby!  

 

*

 

“Toby” was a hybrid.

 

 

I refer interested parties to Wilbert Awdry’s article in Railway Modeller, July 1961, pp.161-163.

 

 

[1]   The article is styled – “Toby” immediately followed by the explanation – “A 4mm scale model of an ex-G.E. Y6 0-4-0 tram-engine using a motor bogie as a basis.”

 

 

[2]   The opening sentence of the article is this.

 

“My son and I first met a J70 tram-engine at Yarmouth in 1951.”

 

 

[3]   I quote para 3 of the article.

 

“The pictures of “Toby” in the books were based on my photographs and Skinley’s blue-print. They therefore more or less resemble a J70. I started planning a model for my own line, but had no chance to build it till we moved to our present parish near Wisbech in 1953. Meanwhile I read up on the subject and found that there were two types employed at Yarmouth, Lowestoft and on the Wisbech and Upwell line. They were the 0-4-0 Y6, introduced in 1883, and the 0-6-0 J70, introduced in 1903. Both looked similar in general, but there were differences in detail. As my model was to be powered by a Romford motor bogie, it struck me that the four- wheeled prototype would be more suitable.”

 

 

[4]   The photographs of the model of “Toby” clearly show the skirts with no indication of outside cylinders - but with Y6 style cab footsteps.  

 

 

[5]   The final para of the article refers to the accompanying prototype photograph. This shows Y6 No 0125 and the caption reads –

 

“A Y6 in original condition”.

 

 

*****

 

 

I would suggest that the above, from Wilbert Awdry’s own words, means that “Toby” was a hybrid. He began in Wilbert’s mind as a J70 but became a Y6.

 

Further evidence of this can be seen in the original (Nos 1-26) books written by Wilbert Awdry himself.

 

When “Toby” first appears in “Toby the Tram Engine” (book No 7 first published in 1952) the first illustration by Reginald Dalby (p.5 and on the cover) shows J70 style cab steps and a suggestion of the bottom of the skirts being of reduced width. There is not, however, and indication of the the J70 outside cylinders. Other illustrations in book No 7 are similar except of that on p.9 which shows the skirts as flat right to the bottom.

 

When Toby finally appears in “Tramway Engines” (book No 26 first published in 1972) the illustrators are Gunvor and Peter Edwards and the skirts are flat to the bottom, with no indication of outside cylinders, but with the J70 style cab steps.

 

 

*****

 

 

To all the above I would add a caveat about the work of the various illustrators of the original 26 books.

 

On 13 April 1982 I had the privilege of a personal conversation with Wilbert Awdry during the annual MRC Easter exhibition. Part of this centered around the fact that what Wilbert had wanted had not always been faithfully achieved by the illustrators.

 

“Henry” had been drawn as a Pacific, but Wilbert had intended he be a GCR Robinson Atlantic. Similarly “Edward” was portrayed as a 4-4-0 when a 2-4-0 had been what Wilbert had in mind.

 

 

 

CP

Edited by cp409067
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Rev Awdry's own 00 model of Toby from his 1960 Ffarquhar Branch layout was painted GER chocolate brown with blue side plates, and a big number '7'. It had no face! Toby hauled 'Henrietta', a four-wheeled W&U tram coach, and 'Elsie', the unique low-slung luggage van from the W&U. There is a picture of this train in the RMweb archives here:

post-28483-0-14426600-1498624770.jpg

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Guest Midland Mole

Slightly off topic (or on topic? I'm confused at this point :P ) but are there any colour illustrations showing the original GER liveries on the C53s? I can find black and white photos, but If I were ever to get one repainted I would need something for reference than just something written down. :D

Alex

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*

 

“Toby” was a hybrid.

 

 

I refer interested parties to Wilbert Awdry’s article in Railway Modeller, July 1961, pp.161-163.

 

 

[1]   The article is styled – “Toby” immediately followed by the explanation – “A 4mm scale model of an ex-G.E. Y6 0-4-0 tram-engine using a motor bogie as a basis.”

 

 

[2]   The opening sentence of the article is this.

 

“My son and I first met a J70 tram-engine at Yarmouth in 1951.”

 

 

[3]   I quote para 3 of the article.

 

“The pictures of “Toby” in the books were based on my photographs and Skinley’s blue-print. They therefore more or less resemble a J70. I started planning a model for my own line, but had no chance to build it till we moved to our present parish near Wisbech in 1953. Meanwhile I read up on the subject and found that there were two types employed at Yarmouth, Lowestoft and on the Wisbech and Upwell line. They were the 0-4-0 Y6, introduced in 1883, and the 0-6-0 J70, introduced in 1903. Both looked similar in general, but there were differences in detail. As my model was to be powered by a Romford motor bogie, it struck me that the four- wheeled prototype would be more suitable.”

 

 

[4]   The photographs of the model of “Toby” clearly show the skirts with no indication of outside cylinders - but with Y6 style cab footsteps.  

 

 

[5]   The final para of the article refers to the accompanying prototype photograph. This shows Y6 No 0125 and the caption reads –

 

“A Y6 in original condition”.

 

 

*****

 

 

I would suggest that the above, from Wilbert Awdry’s own words, means that “Toby” was a hybrid. He began in Wilbert’s mind as a J70 but became a Y6.

 

Further evidence of this can be seen in the original (Nos 1-26) books written by Wilbert Awdry himself.

 

When “Toby” first appears in “Toby the Tram Engine” (book No 7 first published in 1952) the first illustration by Reginald Dalby (p.5 and on the cover) shows J70 style cab steps and a suggestion of the bottom of the skirts being of reduced width. There is not, however, and indication of the the J70 outside cylinders. Other illustrations in book No 7 are similar except of that on p.9 which shows the skirts as flat right to the bottom.

 

When Toby finally appears in “Tramway Engines” (book No 26 first published in 1972) the illustrators are Gunvor and Peter Edwards and the skirts are flat to the bottom, with no indication of outside cylinders, but with the J70 style cab steps.

 

 

*****

 

 

To all the above I would add a caveat about the work of the various illustrators of the original 26 books.

 

On 13 April 1982 I had the privilege of a personal conversation with Wilbert Awdry during the annual MRC Easter exhibition. Part of this centered around the fact that what Wilbert had wanted had not always been faithfully achieved by the illustrators.

 

“Henry” had been drawn as a Pacific, but Wilbert had intended he be a GCR Robinson Atlantic. Similarly “Edward” was portrayed as a 4-4-0 when a 2-4-0 had been what Wilbert had in mind.

 

 

 

CP

 

The illustrations, though beautiful, were notoriously dodgy, and Rev. Awdry was unhappy about it.  Dalby famously changes Henry's wheel arrangement half way through a story.

 

The point here is that the illustrations are not necessarily a reliable guide to the author's intention.

 

It seems, to me, that he met and wrote a J70, but modelled a Y6, so was evidently pretty relaxed on the subject!

 

I'm not sure I'd agree that he intended to create a hybrid, however, as that is more readily explained by the vagaries of the illustrators.

 

Awdry would not have met a Y6 at Wisbech, I'm sure, though 2 were photographed there as late as 1946.

 

As you say, his first encounter with the tram engines was at Yarmouth. This was a family holiday in 1951, as you say, the year before Toby was published.  So far as I am aware, neither of the 2 surviving Y6 were at Yarmouth or Wisbech by this time, so presumably, as he recalls, he met a J70.

 

It was only after this that he encountered them again when visiting Rev. Teddy Boston then curate of Emneth IIRC. By that time I reckon he can only have seen a J70.

 

I have now had a chance to open Model Rail.  This will be a wonderful model by a very competent manufacturer and it is a shame that, as so often, Pre-Groupers are denied an invitation to the party, but the message is clear; if you want a GER version, ask for it!  we must all lobby hard for what we want.

 

As to the versions announced, upon opening Model Rail this morning I could not help thinking "what an odd and probably unrepresentative selection".  3 skirtless versions, including both BR liveries and the earlier LNER version?  A brief flick through some W&U albums this morning confirmed my recollection that shots of skirtless J70s are relatively rare, and, indeed, tend to be of locos standing around the shed rather than on services, though I cannot say they did not run in this condition (and one BR example is pictured on a train in Model Rail). 

 

While the temptation for both manufacturer and modeller might be to show off the virtuoso rendering of the working parts, it is still an odd preponderance.  And no skirted BR version at all, really?

 

If we are to believe that 500 is the necessary minimum, are there really customers for 1,000 skirtless BR versions in preference to a skirted one?  My concern is that slavishly following a straw poll might lead to over-catering for some of these versions, just as it has led to the neglect of the classic GE version.

 

If there is a subsequent glut is of unsold skirtless locos as a result, I cannot step in to buy one for a GE repaint!

 

Anyway, a great development, and I acknowledge that there is some work to be done in order to secure a GE version.  Please, everybody interested in a GE version, ensure you email as Model Rail invites you to do: modelrail@bauermedia.co.uk

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Aren't we going off on a bit of a tangent with Toby. Agreed that this is how most people will know this engine whether it was a Y6 or J70 but it isn't Toby being modelled it's a J70.

 

Weren't the versions offered Based on feedback from MR readers? It does seem a bit odd and if so probably shows you can't trust the great British voting public , as various people have found out recently we are a contrary bunch. I would have thought the obvious choices were GER , LNER and BR. Let's face it there are very few people actually needing a J70 for their layout , most will buy using Rule 1 because it's a nice little engine . In which case they might as well go completely out of period and geographical region and buy a GER one , because it has blue skirts.

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most will buy using Rule 1 because it's a nice little engine . In which case they might as well go completely out of period and geographical region and buy a GER one , because it has blue skirts.

 

I have to honest, last night I thought I might buy one of the LNER versions to be a privately owned loco on my planned *currently unannounced and set nowhere near East Anglia* layout. I could just remove the lettering and add my own, no repaint required. :)

Alex

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The point of the 'skirtless' versions is that the skirts were only fitted when the locos were used on the Wisbech & Upwell line; when used elsewhere on the GE system they were generally removed and latterly the cowcatchers were removed as well.  This would have applied when the locos were used on the dockside lines at Yarmouth, Ipswich and Colchester.

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Aren't we going off on a bit of a tangent with Toby. Agreed that this is how most people will know this engine whether it was a Y6 or J70 but it isn't Toby being modelled it's a J70.

 

Weren't the versions offered Based on feedback from MR readers? It does seem a bit odd and if so probably shows you can't trust the great British voting public , as various people have found out recently we are a contrary bunch. I would have thought the obvious choices were GER , LNER and BR. Let's face it there are very few people actually needing a J70 for their layout , most will buy using Rule 1 because it's a nice little engine . In which case they might as well go completely out of period and geographical region and buy a GER one , because it has blue skirts.

 

That must be right.  You'll never convince me that an ultramarine and coach-brown GE version would not sell.  Just as you will never convince me that all those who bought (or failed to and now lust after) the fully lined Bachmann C have a pre-Grouping SE&CR layout, or that all those who were lucky enough to bag the oversubscribed Hornby H&P Peckett have a layout featuring an Edwardian-period biscuit factory in Berkshire. 

 

If Hornby had conducted a similar poll, do you honestly think they would have had enough people choosing a turn of the century saddle tank owned by a biscuit factory in Reading?  I realise that they asked for suggestions, but, ultimately, Hornby seems to have selected liveries on the basis of what original liveries they could adequately research, no doubt with an eye to their attractiveness. Rapido might consider the example of their Stirling Single. Of 1874. Modellers no longer have the choice of the 1938 condition, which would have been a lot more relevant to the periods covered by reasonable RTR support, but that has far from killed the project.  Think about that, please, Model Rail.

 

Attractive models, and, for some reason, blue locomotives, always sell.

 

Which brings me back to Toby.  He is not in GE livery minus the initials.  For one thing, ultramarine was apparently used on the buffer beams by the GE.  For another, Toby's upper works seem to be painted a chocolate brown.  This is not correct for either GE or LNER examples, so far as I can tell.

 

So far as I have been able to ascertain, the GE painted the tram engine bodies the same colour they painted their teak coach bodies when these were too far gone to support a varnished finish.  After the crimson interlude shortly before Grouping, I believe that the LNER adopted much the same practice when repainting coaches and the tram bodies.

 

Although more yellowy in some lights, this seems to be a slightly reddish brown, and, though it may well have darkened over time for all I know, certainly not chocolate.   

post-25673-0-19169900-1498638012_thumb.jpg

post-25673-0-08564800-1498638032_thumb.jpg

post-25673-0-13118200-1498638043.jpg

Edited by Edwardian
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That must be right.  You'll never convince me that an ultramarine and coach-brown GE version would not sell.  Just as you will never convince me that all those who bought (or failed to and now lust after) the fully lined Bachmann C have a pre-Grouping SE&CR layout, or that all those who were lucky enough to bag the oversubscribed Hornby H&P Peckett have a layout featuring an Edwardian-period biscuit factory in Berkshire. 

 

If Hornby had conducted a similar poll, do you honestly think they would have had enough people choosing a turn of the century saddle tank owned by a biscuit factory in Reading?  I realise that they asked for suggestions, but, ultimately, Hornby seems to have selected liveries on the basis of what original liveries they could adequately research, not doubt with an eye to their attractiveness. Rapido might consider the example of their Stirling Single. Of 1874. Modellers no longer have the choice of the 1938 condition, which would have been a lot more relevant to the periods covered by reasonable RTR support, but that has far from killed the project.  Think about that, please, Model Rail.

 

Attractive models, and, for some reason, blue, locomotives, always sell.

 

Which brings me back to Toby.  He is not in GE livery minus the initials.  For one thing, ultramarine was apparently used on the buffer beams by the GE.  For another, Toby's upper works seem to be painted a chocolate brown.  This is not correct for either GE or LNER examples, so far as I can tell.

 

So far as I have been able to ascertain, the GE painted the tram engine bodies the same colour they painted their teak coach bodies when these were too far gone to support a varnished finish.  After the crimson interlude shortly before Grouping, I believe that the LNER adopted much the same practice when repainting coaches and the tram bodies.

 

Although more yellowy in some lights, this seems to be a slightly reddish brown, and, though it may well have darkened over time for all I know, certainly not chocolate.   

 

Totally agree.

 

Yes the LNER painted their old coaches in " Teak " livery the same for NSPCC stock as well. e.g. Rails have the J70 in the same correct colour for LNER days.

 

post-7186-0-97694200-1498639150_thumb.jpg

Edited by micklner
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Yarmouth docks were a tramway, and as such skirted locomotives were used there, includine the final diesels.

 

Terry

 

 

I was paraphrasing what it says in the RCTS "Locomotives of the LNER Part 8A"; it actually says "Latterly, except when working on the Wisbech & Upwell tramway, the side skirting were generally removed and stored at the sheds (fig. 108).  In their last years, a number of the engines were even running without cow-catchers (fig. 111)".

 

Fig. 108 shows No. 7139 at Ipswich shed in March 1937 with the side skirting removed, and Fig. 111 shows No. 68219 running in the street "at Yarmouth Vauxhall" in May 1951 with both skirts and cow catchers removed.  It's in front of The Lord Nelson pub, and the distinctive girder bridge (now painted red) by which the tramway crossed the River Bure to get from the station to the town streets is visible in the background.

 

The pub now seems to be called The Seafood Restaurant, and the picture was taken from approximately this position, with the loco where the two parked cars are in front of the (now) restaurant:

 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.6103197,1.7222751,3a,75y,86.18t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5ZVcIMERuKYhh9cHEA1NXw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

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From just doing a very quick Google search, I found at least three pictures of them running at Ipswich docks (in LNER livery) without side skirts.

Alex

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