OO gauge GWR Mogul and Prairie

[Tom F]

Forgive me if this has already been asked (I've been having a read through the thread). Are Dapol doing variations between models? I notice the Cad doesn't show outside steam pipes, will they be producing variants with these?

[gwrrob]

 Are Dapol doing variations between models? I notice the Cad doesn't show outside steam pipes, will they be producing variants with these?

 

Yes they are. Short and tall safety valve covers and pipes and no pipes variations too.

[Tom F]

Yes they are. Short and tall safety valve covers and pipes and no pipes variations too.

 

 

Cheers Rob!

 

Well, Croes Newydd had plenty so I've a few to choose from!

Edited November 27, 2018 by 9793

[gwrrob]

Cheers Rob!

 

Well, Croes Newydd had plenty so I've a few to choose from!

 

If you give me your numbers I can check for you Tom.

[Miss Prism]

 

A grubby 7309, one of the Robert Stephenson locos (its splasher works plate long-since removed), in later days, with parallel buffers, a short safety valve cover, a dome case on the pony truck spring, ATC, the front top lampiron moved down to the smokebox door, and a slightly heavier balance weight on the middle axle. The circular patch on the smokebox wrapper indicates its boiler has been used previously on an outside-steampiped loco, possibly 7309 itself. (A bit of cylinder swapping took place on the Moguls.)

 

 

[The Johnster]

This is because locos took about 3 weeks to overhaul whereas boilers took about a month.  So the next available overhauled boiler, no.4 in this case, would be fitted to the loco to get it back into traffic earning money for the shareholders and not blocking bays in the works while the boiler you'd taken off the loco was still in the boiler shop.  A number 4 might have previously served on a City/Atbara, Churchward County, 42xx/5205/72xx or 3150 as well as a mogul.

[checkrail]

Was impressed by the spec. details on the flyer Dapol were handing out at Warley. Think it looks set to be a quality product.

 

With a s. Devon based thirties layout I'd have preferred one of the front-weighted 83xx variants, but beggars can't be choosers and I'll certainly be ordering one. According to Beck & Copsey 6305 lived at Newton Abbot in 1938, so that'll probably be the identity it gets. All the other Laira/NA/Exeter mogul allocations for that year were for 83xx locos.

[Miss Prism]

All the other Laira/NA/Exeter mogul allocations for that year were for 83xx locos.

 

The 83xxs existed for that purpose.

[checkrail]

The 83xxs existed for that purpose.

Indeed, which is why I would have liked one!

[gwrrob]

 According to Beck & Copsey 6305 lived at Newton Abbot in 1938, so that'll probably be the identity it gets. All the other Laira/NA/Exeter mogul allocations for that year were for 83xx locos.

 

You'll be needing one without pipes then .

[Tom F]

I notice there appears to be some difference in loco numbers between Dapol’s site and Hatton’s. Hatton’s states 7324 in BR black. Relatively odd it being an ex 93xx Collett version, to be BR black one would expect it to still have its 93 number.

 

Dapol have the BR black version listed as 6324, which with a standard Churchward cab, makes financial sense.

Edited November 28, 2018 by 9793

[9402 Fredrick]

I notice there appears to be some difference in loco numbers between Dapol’s site and Hatton’s. Hatton’s states 7324 in BR black. Relatively odd it being an ex 93xx Collett version, to be BR black one would expect it to still have its 93 number.

 

Dapol have the BR black version listed as 6324, which with a standard Churchward cab, makes financial sense.

I have yet to see it changed on other shops too to the correct number, also I'm wonsering what the number on 4s-043-003 wil be.

[Tom F]

 I'm wonsering what the number on 4s-043-003 wil be.

 

 

Ah yes, me too! 

 

Am I right that a number of Moguls post 1956 were given Brunswick Green, unlined? I suppose 4s-043-003 would be a could candidate for anyone wishing to depict an unlined one. It should just be a change of shirtbutton, to late BR crest I guess.

Edited November 29, 2018 by 9793

[Miss Prism]

Am I right that a number of Moguls post 1956 were given Brunswick Green, unlined?

 

Apart from a few large Prairies given unlined green in 1956-7 (from Caerphilly), there is as yet no evidence of other locos getting unlined green. The unlined green instruction of November 1956 was rescinded on 25 January 1957.

[Tom F]

Apart from a few large Prairies given unlined green in 1956-7 (from Caerphilly), there is as yet no evidence of other locos getting unlined green. The unlined green instruction of November 1956 was rescinded on 25 January 1957.

Thanks for that.

 

I’ll have a closer check on photos, a lot seem to be finished in unlined grime so it is hard to tell. I’ve a lovely photo of 6311 coming out of Bala with a goods from Barmouth to Ruabon, dated 1956 with an early crest so I presume black.

[Miss Prism]

Unlined black is definitely the predominant mode for Moguls in BR(W) days. It doesn't make them any less pretty.

 

For those of you nutty enough to want a specific loco at a specific time, the key things to look out for are the cylinders (inside or outside piped), boiler/firebox type (firebox washout line level, and tall/short safety valve) being carried at the time, and the match of the tender underframe beneath the Churchward top. Cylinders were changed rarely on Moguls I think, but boilers and tenders were subject to normal regular changing.

 

The type of Churchward 3500g favoured for some Moguls in later years seems to be those retrofitted with the stronger Collett underframes, as per the coaled-to-the-max 6349 below (at Stourbridge on 18 Oct 1959, with outside steam pipes, btw), although this is one of the 'non-Dapol' locos carrying a high firebox washout plug line firebox:

 

 

Dapol's choice of 6336, at least for its non-early years, is on reasonably safe grounds, although that too ran with differently-underframed tenders, at Swindon 1953, with the early Collett reinforcing brackets, and later on at Tyseley, with an old-fashioned Churchward frame (both are outside-piped and with short safety valve covers, btw):

 

 

Edited December 1, 2018 by Miss Prism

[gwrrob]

 also I'm wonsering what the number on 4s-043-003 wil be.

 

The paperwork I picked up at Warley states GWR green with BR smokebox number.

[Edwardian]

Was impressed by the spec. details on the flyer Dapol were handing out at Warley. Think it looks set to be a quality product.

 

With a s. Devon based thirties layout I'd have preferred one of the front-weighted 83xx variants, but beggars can't be choosers and I'll certainly be ordering one. According to Beck & Copsey 6305 lived at Newton Abbot in 1938, so that'll probably be the identity it gets. All the other Laira/NA/Exeter mogul allocations for that year were for 83xx locos.

 

I don't know which end of the '30s you're interested in, but if earlier, allocations for 1934 are published, and I have 1935 allocations.

[martinT]

Apart from a few large Prairies given unlined green in 1956-7 (from Caerphilly), there is as yet no evidence of other locos getting unlined green. The unlined green instruction of November 1956 was rescinded on 25 January 1957.

 

I'm a little surprised by this statement Russ. Unlined green was a common livery for Moguls, esp. post 1960. See the 4 colour photos on pp152/153 of David Maidment's 'Moguls & Prairies' book. These shew 5306 at Haverfordwest (June 1962), 6320 at Dauntsey (November 1960), 6378 at Cowley Bridge Junc (July 1961), & 7304 at Dulverton (November 1962),. All 4 are green & unlined. On p76 of David Andrews' 'Churchward 2-6-0s' monograph there is a photo of a clean 6326 at Hereford in April 1957 - which he claims is in unlined green, although as it is a B&W photo I can't be so confident!

 

Martin

[Miss Prism]

Excellent, Martin, and exactly the rebuttal I was hoping for. The Maidment book is fairly new on the scene (and I don't have it), so postdates the 'old' livery awareness. Mods to gwr.org coming up in the next few minutes...

 

What this does indicate however, is that the rescinding of the 'unlined green instruction' had fallen into disuse by c 1960, and probably opens up the likelihood of unlined green being applied to other 'non-express passenger' classes.

 

I guess by 1960 Swindon was in adhoc mode anyway.

Edited November 29, 2018 by Miss Prism

[boxbrownie]

 

For those of you nutty enough to want a specific loco at a specific time

Love it

[Pendennis]

The paperwork I picked up at Warley states GWR green with BR smokebox number.

 

This would restrict its period of operation far more than without; is it a moulded smokebox number plate?  If so it can be a pain in the a**e to remove without damage!  In which case I think I'll probably wait and see what future releases bring forth.

[The Stationmaster]

I'm a little surprised by this statement Russ. Unlined green was a common livery for Moguls, esp. post 1960. See the 4 colour photos on pp152/153 of David Maidment's 'Moguls & Prairies' book. These shew 5306 at Haverfordwest (June 1962), 6320 at Dauntsey (November 1960), 6378 at Cowley Bridge Junc (July 1961), & 7304 at Dulverton (November 1962),. All 4 are green & unlined. On p76 of David Andrews' 'Churchward 2-6-0s' monograph there is a photo of a clean 6326 at Hereford in April 1957 - which he claims is in unlined green, although as it is a B&W photo I can't be so confident!

 

Martin

 

Yes, but I am sure that Miss P's original reply was correct for the time period stated.  What Miss P did not refer to was the 'economy' green livery which followed the lined green livery on various smaller engines (61XX seem to have been favourites for this treatment at Swindon and  a number of 56XX also acquired it instead of full lining).  The only way to tell the difference between the original BR unlined green and the economy green is by the tender emblem (assuming the tender was painted at the same time as the engine) as the economy livery engines all carried the later BR emblem.   The change might even have come as early as 1958 but definitely seems to have been in use by 1960.

[The Johnster]

Locos painted between 1st January and 31st May 1948 would have been in unlined green livery with 'BRITIISH RAILWAYS' in GW 1920s style Egyptian Serif lettering; I have seen a photo of 4159 at Barry shed exworks in this condition.  After 31/5/48 matters become more complex.  The lettering would have been Gill Sans 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' until the end of April 1949, when the unicycling lion totem became available, but there seem to have been examples of WR mixed traffic locos, which includes these classes, in both lined and unlined black.  I have the impression that unlined became more predominant as time passed, and then the unlined green BR unicycling lion livery was introduced in 11/56, being withdrawn 2 months later 1/57, so very few locos appeared in that livery; but the sheer quantity of moguls and large prairies suggest that it was applied to some of them.  It was followed by some locos being painted in lined green and some in unlined black, the ferret and dartboard totem appearing in 1958.  

 

Then there was an 'economy' livery introduced in the early 60s, not sure of exact date but I think 1963, of unlined green with the ferret and dartboard.  Some locos continued to appear in black and in lined green alongside this livery.  AFAIK, though I am happy to be corrected, no ex GW locos were turned out in the mixed traffic lined black LNWR based livery after November of 1956, though some WR BR standards may have been.

 

To put it another way, the original May 1948 intention of painting mixed traffic locomotives in LNWR style lined black livery was never fully complied with on the WR, or ever fully ignored either.  Other regions are guilty to degrees of this; for example the LMR painted Fowler 4Ps and even some bigger passenger rated engines in it that should have been in passenger lined green, and the Southern did the same to the Schools, L1s, and T9s.  Post January 1957, the WR painted many locos in lined green passenger livery that were mixed traffic rated, including some moguls and large prairies, and AFAIK all the named 4-6-0s of the Hall, Grange, and Manor classes were turned out in this livery when they should have been in lined black.  On the other hand, lined black appeared on locos not designated as mixed traffic, notably 8750 and 15xx panniers on Paddington ecs duties.  The 94xx on these duties were in plain black; nowhere was there any attempt at consistency, or at least not a successful one.

 

Superimpose on to this any permutation you like of polished or painted safety valve covers and copper chimney caps, and an early 50s period of red backed number plates, including on late GW liveried locos some of which were still in austerity black and some of which may have carried Caerphilly Works' 'Grotesque' austerity lettering, and almost any mogul or large prairie might appear in any number of variations of livery between 1948 and the end of steam on the WR.  One needs to attempt to find actual evidence of the livery carried at a particular period, although some assumptions can be made for brand new locos ex works in 1948 and early 1949.  

 

Good luck...

Edited November 29, 2018 by The Johnster

[9402 Fredrick]

The paperwork I picked up at Warley states GWR green with BR smokebox number.

I know that, I was talking about the number on said number plate.