OO gauge GWR Mogul and Prairie

[woodenhead]

The off centre pivot seems to have entered into the world via this forum than from Dapol and I note that when mr 71000 Duke of Gloucester offered his idea for the off centre pivot on Dapols forum it went unanswered.

[ndg910]

Final CAD images posted on Dapil Digest for the Churchward Mogul. Look good to my untrained eye.

[tomparryharry]

Well! That's starting to look like something!

 

We discussed some time back about how polite discussion & debate works, and this is the result (thus far). It would appear that we can have anything we want, if we go about it the right way. Of course, not just Western, but the obscure stuff, like Southern or eastern (joke).

 

I'm in a bit of a dilemma: I've strictly enforced my personal tank locomotive-only policy. Hmm. Large Prairie, perchance? So far, so good.....

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

[woodenhead]

 

I'm in a bit of a dilemma: I've strictly enforced my personal tank locomotive-only policy. Hmm. Large Prairie, perchance? So far, so good.....

 

 

Just think of it as a Large Prairie that has a mineral come water cart immediately behind it.

[The Johnster]

The online catalogue has CAD of the 5101.  Still no sliding shutters on the cab sides, but this can be rectified...

 

Personally, I find it quite hard to visualise the finished model from a CAD image, and would not like to comment on the accuracy.  Unpainted pre-production samples are very clear to me, however.

Edited August 29, 2018 by The Johnster

[tomparryharry]

The online catalogue has CAD of the 5101.  Still no sliding shutters on the cab sides, but this can be rectified...

 

Personally, I find it quite hard to visualise the finished model from a CAD image, and would not like to comment on the accuracy.  Unpainted pre-production samples are very clear to me, however.

If you look over at Dapol Digest  and have a look on their pages. It's only a day old, but pretty good.

 

Ian.

[The Fatadder]

https://digest.Dapol.co.uk/forum/main-forum/steam-aa/gwr-mogul-4300-class/7818-63xx-mogul-project-managers-blog 

for the current photos:

[brushman47544]

https://digest.Dapol.co.uk/forum/main-forum/steam-aa/gwr-mogul-4300-class/7818-63xx-mogul-project-managers-blog 

for the current photos:

 

I see someone has already commented on the Dapol Forum about the raised numberplates. Those on the Heljan 47xx are awful. Why is this approach so popular now? Much better printed on so you can fit aftermarket plates for your chosen loco.

[tomparryharry]

Well, we haven't seen a first print yet. My wallet is my personal arbiter of whether Dapol have it right or not. I wouldn't suggest Dapol are lacking, so we should all bide our time. After all, we're not going anywhere, are we? Relax, and let them get on with it!

 

Dear me! What a lot of froth!

 

I'm off to load Teddy into the Silver Cross Martin-Baker.

 

Ian.

Edited August 30, 2018 by tomparryharry

[MatthewCarty]

I see someone has already commented on the Dapol Forum about the raised numberplates. Those on the Heljan 47xx are awful. Why is this approach so popular now? Much better printed on so you can fit aftermarket plates for your chosen loco.

Yes that was me, I have also received a reply form Andy which sounds reassuring on the plates front:

 

Hi, Thanks for your comments. To answer your question take a look at the CAD I published in the 63xx thread <here>. (although the models are being developed together, the threads should have been separated, which is now the case). You'll note the plates are separate parts and there is no moulded 'bead' or plate. Therefore, if you wish can be replaced with those of your choice. This will also be the case with the Prairie.

 

BR versions will of course feature the appropriate smoke box numbers and shed plates. We'll show these in due course.

[rovex]

My wallet is my final arbiter of whether Dapol have it right or not.

 

Ian.

Gosh is you're wallet an expert on GWR locos then?

 

[lofty1966]

Looks rather interesting.

Maybe time to start oiling the hinges on the Lofty wallet !

[tomparryharry]

Gosh is you're wallet an expert on GWR locos then?

Ho Ho! You made me chuckle! No, my wallet is not an expert on Western locomotives!

 

Actually, I'm on a learning curve, just like everyone else. What I have noticed, however, is that people react more favourably to polite discussion, rational debate, and diplomacy. Shouting from the sidelines won't work. It will only breed indifference. We all know that Western modellers form a large segment of railway modelling, so my question is this; do we deserve the best? I'd like to think so!

 

Now, I'd hope Dapol would notice what's going on, and act favourably towards the client(s). I'm hoping to be a client also. If on the other hand, it's a dogs dinner, then my wallet will sadly stay shut, hence my earlier post.

 

It's down to Dapol to deliver. They know this. Giving them grief won't work.

 

There's a large list of Western locomotives I'd like to see made. Perhaps we're (all) leading the way towards getting what 'we' want, rather than someone else saying "That'll do for 'that' lot...."

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

Edited August 29, 2018 by tomparryharry

[woodenhead]

I think what Dapol (and others for that matter) don't like is a feeling of being preached to.

 

Demonstrating an issue using clear examples and suggesting possible solutions are all acceptable as is taking Dapol's (or other manufacturers) final words on a subject if the request is beyond the scope of the cost window of the product.

[Adrock]

CADs are looking fantastic, let’s hope this project keeps moving along in the way it has done so far. I will certainly be purchasing.

 

Question: I know that the wheel sets and motion of the real things were used as part of the rebuild into Manor class locomotives. However, were the wheel centres similar across the two classes? I’m wondering whether I could buy a second loco and donate the engine chassis to my Bachmann Manor....any early thoughts?

[Coach bogie]

CADs are looking fantastic, let’s hope this project keeps moving along in the way it has done so far. I will certainly be purchasing.

 

Question: I know that the wheel sets and motion of the real things were used as part of the rebuild into Manor class locomotives. However, were the wheel centres similar across the two classes? I’m wondering whether I could buy a second loco and donate the engine chassis to my Bachmann Manor....any early thoughts?

The Manors shared the 7' / 7' 9" spacing of the moguls and prairie tanks. The motion parts included the connecting rods which required the same spacing.

 

As far as purchasing, I will no doubt buy a Mogul out of loyalty for Dapol's marketing initiative to give us all an updated model. I have several K's Moguls that are heavy and can haul long trains up my hills. There are very few modern plastic rtr locos than can haul the trains I run. 

 

Mike Wiltshire

[The Johnster]

CADs are looking fantastic, let’s hope this project keeps moving along in the way it has done so far. I will certainly be purchasing.

 

Question: I know that the wheel sets and motion of the real things were used as part of the rebuild into Manor class locomotives. However, were the wheel centres similar across the two classes? I’m wondering whether I could buy a second loco and donate the engine chassis to my Bachmann Manor....any early thoughts?

 

This should be possible, but you will have to fabricate mountings for the body to fit to the new chassis.  Position the cylinders in line with the Manor's outside steam pipes, and all should be in place correctly; make sure the body sits level on the chassis.

 

I did something similar with my Limbach 94xx; the body mountings are cross stretchers at front and rear and some soft wood inside the cab walls to 'interference fit' the body, lightly secured with pound shop superglue that can be easily broken if I need to get inside the loco.  I'm not recommending this, it's pure bodgery in my best tradition, but it works!

[adb968008]

I strongly suspect this chassis is being designed to allow placement of a Manor bogie truck on it, in place of the 2 wheels for the 61xx/63xx.

Then already will have the tender from the mogul, the only bit left is a Manor body.

 

In my opinion all that’s needed is patience and I suspect a Dapol Manor will be forthcoming, assuming Hornby doesn’t stick a manor body on to it’s grange chassis / tender first.

Edited August 31, 2018 by adb968008

[The Johnster]

I think you are probably right, and if you're not Dap have deffo missed a trick!  Problem with waiting for new models to appear is the time they take even when they are announced, and this is what led to my building the Limbach 94xx; I got fed up of waiting for Bachmann to turn up with a loco they announced 3 years ago and which has been continually deferred and is not even at CAD stage yet; I have no faith at al in their ability to produce it in the shops when they say they will, and they've already let me down twice.  

 

Not being unsympathetic to their problems here; financing new models in the current economic climate is fraught when the shareholders are snapping at your heels, and then you've got to find production facilities and hope nothing badly delays the project; glad I'm not in their position!  The Limbach will do for now, and stop me fretting about a new 94xx until one is in the offing; it was worth the time and cash expended on it in those terms.  I would suspect that anyone hoping for a Dapol Manor, and there seem to be a good few of you out there if the wishlist threads are anything to go by, will be at least tempted to use a 43xx chassis under an old Mainline/Bachmann body; these were very good bodies in their day and not at all bad now!  A perfectly acceptable model, better than my Limbach with it's slightly incorrect chassis and inside cylinder cover, should result.

 

Patience is a virtue, and playing the long game will no doubt turn up an RTR Manor to modern standards eventually, but some of us are getting on a bit and have to consider that we might not be around by the time it arrives, so I can see a good few people going down the 'Mainpol Manor' route, or is it Dapline.  I won't be joining you; my South Wales mining branch has no need for a Manor, but I can justify a 5101 to replace my antediluvian Airfix.

Edited August 31, 2018 by The Johnster

[rockershovel]

Thanks for that 34theletterbetween.....I wasn't aware of the issues you describe with double pivoting. It will be interesting to see what solution Dapol come up with, assuming the existing design is changed. Please feel free to contact Dapol to suggest a better solution.

 

I agree with your point about making the front cylinder cover a separate, push fit moulding. I have suggested precisely that in my most recent post on Dapol Digest. Perhaps a removable 'half relief' cylinder cover could be fitted to the model in the factory, with an full relief one supplied in the accessory pack for the consumer to fit?

 

Hornby have used rebated cylinders on several of their GWR 2 cylinder models (Grange, 42xx/72xx/52xx, 28xx) though to date haven't supplied alternate covers. A shame, as that would be a nice feature for people without tight radii.

Perhaps they feel that modellers using only larger radii, and discriminating enough to notice, are quite capable of executing this fairly simple modification ?

[tomparryharry]

I think you are probably right, and if you're not Dap have deffo missed a trick!  Problem with waiting for new models to appear is the time they take even when they are announced, and this is what led to my building the Limbach 94xx; I got fed up of waiting for Bachmann to turn up with a loco they announced 3 years ago and which has been continually deferred and is not even at CAD stage yet; I have no faith at al in their ability to produce it in the shops when they say they will, and they've already let me down twice.  

 

Not being unsympathetic to their problems here; financing new models in the current economic climate is fraught when the shareholders are snapping at your heels, and then you've got to find production facilities and hope nothing badly delays the project; glad I'm not in their position!  The Limbach will do for now, and stop me fretting about a new 94xx until one is in the offing; it was worth the time and cash expended on it in those terms.  I would suspect that anyone hoping for a Dapol Manor, and there seem to be a good few of you out there if the wishlist threads are anything to go by, will be at least tempted to use a 43xx chassis under an old Mainline/Bachmann body; these were very good bodies in their day and not at all bad now!  A perfectly acceptable model, better than my Limbach with it's slightly incorrect chassis and inside cylinder cover, should result.

 

Patience is a virtue, and playing the long game will no doubt turn up an RTR Manor to modern standards eventually, but some of us are getting on a bit and have to consider that we might not be around by the time it arrives, so I can see a good few people going down the 'Mainpol Manor' route, or is it Dapline.  I won't be joining you; my South Wales mining branch has no need for a Manor, but I can justify a 5101 to replace my antediluvian Airfix.

 

I Hear Dapline is the name for the new South Wales  Metro system.

[adb968008]

I think you are probably right, and if you're not Dap have deffo missed a trick!  Problem with waiting for new models to appear is the time they take even when they are announced, and this is what led to my building the Limbach 94xx; I got fed up of waiting for Bachmann to turn up with a loco they announced 3 years ago and which has been continually deferred and is not even at CAD stage yet; I have no faith at al in their ability to produce it in the shops when they say they will, and they've already let me down twice.  

 

Not being unsympathetic to their problems here; financing new models in the current economic climate is fraught when the shareholders are snapping at your heels, and then you've got to find production facilities and hope nothing badly delays the project; glad I'm not in their position!  The Limbach will do for now, and stop me fretting about a new 94xx until one is in the offing; it was worth the time and cash expended on it in those terms.  I would suspect that anyone hoping for a Dapol Manor, and there seem to be a good few of you out there if the wishlist threads are anything to go by, will be at least tempted to use a 43xx chassis under an old Mainline/Bachmann body; these were very good bodies in their day and not at all bad now!  A perfectly acceptable model, better than my Limbach with it's slightly incorrect chassis and inside cylinder cover, should result.

 

Patience is a virtue, and playing the long game will no doubt turn up an RTR Manor to modern standards eventually, but some of us are getting on a bit and have to consider that we might not be around by the time it arrives, so I can see a good few people going down the 'Mainpol Manor' route, or is it Dapline.  I won't be joining you; my South Wales mining branch has no need for a Manor, but I can justify a 5101 to replace my antediluvian Airfix.

You could always stick a Hornby Grange chassis under a mainline manor, there’s a bit of hacking on the chassis but it can be made to fit.

I’m guessing here, but if it were me I’d see this as the 63/61 route is a high cost & 2 year project as is, and calling out a Manor at the start not only increases cost, but adds risk Hornby could undercut both time and cost by doing a shell on the Grange in the meantime taking the market first.

But if when the 63/61 are released a Hornby Manor isn’t on the horizon both companies would be near enough equal start line positions in time & cost to do one.

I think Bachmann are out of this particular race, indeed if Hornby got the paint right on the Hall I think Bachmann would be pretty much pushed out of the GW market with only the niche stuff left.

[The Johnster]

I Hear Dapline is the name for the new South Wales  Metro system.

 

It is now!  

 

Daps, for the incognescenti, are a South Wales and Bristol word for canvas running shoes, what some people called pumps in their school days.  They have an association with Bristol through the 19th century shipowner and philanthropist Samuel Plimsoll, another name for them, who amongst other things is responsible for the 'Plimsoll Line', the line on the side of a merchant ship's hull indicating the safe level to which she can be loaded.  He was instrumental in persuading another Samuel, Dunlop this time, the rubber products manufacturer, to make rubber soled canvas shoes for sailors, cheap and very effective on wet wooden decks.

 

These were marketed as Plimsoll's deck shoes and became popular amongst runners and gymnasts as well as merchant seamen.  Dunlop's own version, Dunlop Athletic Plimsoll's, are of course the original daps.

 

I prefer the story that the word 'daps' comes from the noise they make when somebody is running in them, though, dap-dap-dap-dap-dap.  

 

A Cardiffism for somebody with a scowling expression is that 'she got a face like a ripped dap'.

Actually I've just realised a flaw in 'Dapline'; it gives them an excuse to use Sprinters...

[Horsetan]

I think what Dapol (and others for that matter) don't like is a feeling of being preached to....

...by the converted?

[Ian Hargrave]

It is now!  

 

Daps, for the incognescenti, are a South Wales and Bristol word for canvas running shoes, what some people called pumps in their school days.  They have an association with Bristol through the 19th century shipowner and philanthropist Samuel Plimsoll, another name for them, who amongst other things is responsible for the 'Plimsoll Line', the line on the side of a merchant ship's hull indicating the safe level to which she can be loaded.  He was instrumental in persuading another Samuel, Dunlop this time, the rubber products manufacturer, to make rubber soled canvas shoes for sailors, cheap and very effective on wet wooden decks.

 

These were marketed as Plimsoll's deck shoes and became popular amongst runners and gymnasts as well as merchant seamen.  Dunlop's own version, Dunlop Athletic Plimsoll's, are of course the original daps.

 

I prefer the story that the word 'daps' comes from the noise they make when somebody is running in them, though, dap-dap-dap-dap-dap.  

 

A Cardiffism for somebody with a scowling expression is that 'she got a face like a ripped dap'.Actually I've just realised a flaw in 'Dapline'; it gives them an excuse to use Sprinters...

Thanks for this.I haven't heard that term since schooldays in the 1950's."Plimsolls,pumps,trainers....." What the hell are they ?

Any Valleys kid could tell you what daps are.....or were,anyway.