OO gauge GWR Mogul and Prairie

[Clearwater]

A friend of mine who grew up in the north but now lives in Bristol posted in puzzlement a couple of years ago on Facebook to ask “what are daps?” when her oldest child was starting school.

 

David

[tomparryharry]

Of course, now having coined the moniker 'Dapline', what is the colour of the rolling stock? 

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

[The Johnster]

Of course, now having coined the moniker 'Dapline', what is the colour of the rolling stock? 

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

 

I refer you to Dunlop Green Flash 'deck shoes'.

[The Johnster]

You could always stick a Hornby Grange chassis under a mainline manor, there’s a bit of hacking on the chassis but it can be made to fit.

I’m guessing here, but if it were me I’d see this as the 63/61 route is a high cost & 2 year project as is, and calling out a Manor at the start not only increases cost, but adds risk Hornby could undercut both time and cost by doing a shell on the Grange in the meantime taking the market first.

But if when the 63/61 are released a Hornby Manor isn’t on the horizon both companies would be near enough equal start line positions in time & cost to do one.

I think Bachmann are out of this particular race, indeed if Hornby got the paint right on the Hall I think Bachmann would be pretty much pushed out of the GW market with only the niche stuff left.

 

Sounds about right!  Bachmann are already infamous for the time they take to bring models they have announced to market; they are out of this game for a decade at least in my view.  Hornby are the go to for GWR tender engines and the 42xx/5205/72xx, and Bachmann for tanks; I wouldn't call tanks a niche market, though!  Manors for the time being have to be sourced on 'Bay or similar and run until the Mainline split chassis give out, which they will sooner rather than later for one reason or another, at which time one has the choice of Hornby Grange chassis, tender chassis (Airfix/Hornby s/h), kit built, or the new Dapol.

 

Dapol are a valuable part of the market in my view, as are Oxford and Heljan, but the big players remain in red and blue boxes, and it is the smaller firms, which can react more quickly to demand and take on commissions, that can supply niche models; 1361/6, 47xx etc.

[mdvle]

Sounds about right!  Bachmann are already infamous for the time they take to bring models they have announced to market; they are out of this game for a decade at least in my view.  Hornby are the go to for GWR tender engines and the 42xx/5205/72xx, and Bachmann for tanks; I wouldn't call tanks a niche market, though!  Manors for the time being have to be sourced on 'Bay or similar and run until the Mainline split chassis give out, which they will sooner rather than later for one reason or another, at which time one has the choice of Hornby Grange chassis, tender chassis (Airfix/Hornby s/h), kit built, or the new Dapol.

 

 

I wouldn't count Bachmann out quite yet.  In the just started topic in the Bachmann area about their updates yesterday they announced that new production facilities have come online, and they have more EP samples pictures (2HAP, Class 24, Class 121) in addition to the Class 117 and 158 of the last couple of months as further proof that they are starting to move through the production backlog (for reference in January the 2HAP and 121 were only at the CAD stage, and so have already gone through tooling to EP in 7 months).

 

I can't comment on the accuracy, but the EP's look like the models are nicely detailed, and the specs for the 94xx sound promising (

94xx Pannier (body variations dependent on Swindon built or outside contractor, different bunker steps, plated or non-plated front valance, GWR and BR build variations) and it wouldn't surprise me at this point given how things have started to move if we don't see the 94xx next year.

[The Johnster]

I hope you're right about the 94xx; I'm looking forward to the BR version without the plated front valance, but I won't be holding my breath having been let down before.  It is good to hear that Bach have acquired new production facilities, but we don't know if they've lost any older ones, and the 94xx is still shown as photographs of prototypes in the only catalogue, with no expected delivery date (it was Q3 2019 a few weeks ago but that has been quietly dropped, which makes me even more suspicious).  

 

It may not be a matter of production capability if the cash isn't in place to develop and produce the model.  Of course, if the new facilities have the effect of clearing a backlog of work, we may yet see the 94xx next year, but I just don't have the feeling that the thing is off the drawing board yet!

 

I'm also in the market for a 5101 when Dapol release it, which will be numbered as 4145, delivered new to Tondu shed in 1946 in unlined green G W R livery, but if another livery is released first I'll probably go for it as I'm comfortable with doing my own repainting.  

Edited September 2, 2018 by The Johnster

[mdvle]

, and the 94xx is still shown as photographs of prototypes in the only catalogue, with no expected delivery date (it was Q3 2019 a few weeks ago but that has been quietly dropped, which makes me even more suspicious).

 

The impression I get from Andy Y's update is that the 94xx was covered in their mid-year press update on Friday.

 

It may not be a matter of production capability if the cash isn't in place to develop and produce the model.  Of course, if the new facilities have the effect of clearing a backlog of work, we may yet see the 94xx next year, but I just don't have the feeling that the thing is off the drawing board yet!

 

Well, the same update says since Dec 2017 16 upgraded or totally new products have been delivered or are in transit, and that their narrow gauge range is selling out prior to arrival in the UK.  I suspect its a bit of a case where it is easy to overlook all the stuff that Bachmann is delivering recently when it doesn't happen to be the item one is waiting for.  It wouldn't for example surprise me if the soon to arrive Mk2f doesn't make a lot of people happy.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/137096-Bachmann-2018-mid-year-update/

[mdvle]

You could always stick a Hornby Grange chassis under a mainline manor, there’s a bit of hacking on the chassis but it can be made to fit.

I’m guessing here, but if it were me I’d see this as the 63/61 route is a high cost & 2 year project as is, and calling out a Manor at the start not only increases cost, but adds risk Hornby could undercut both time and cost by doing a shell on the Grange in the meantime taking the market first.

But if when the 63/61 are released a Hornby Manor isn’t on the horizon both companies would be near enough equal start line positions in time & cost to do one.

 

 

Don't think Hornby factors in at all - Hornby will be aware as everyone here is that Dapol will be close to a Manor and thus could already be working on it to announce either at Warley or their next big yearly announcement (or of course Dapol could do a surprise announcement in December much like they did last year).

 

If I had to guess it is likely more a case of not putting too many similar locos on the market at the same time, where they would all be competing for the same hobby money and thus possibly cannibalizing each other, and instead attempt to spread out that purchasing over several years with the side benefit of a small amount of spreading the tooling costs.

[Hilux5972]

Hornby could have secretly been developing one behind the scenes that is ready to be released upon announcement. It has been known to happen previously.

[Clearwater]

Hornby could have secretly been developing one behind the scenes that is ready to be released upon announcement. It has been known to happen previously.

Given the stage Dapol is at, i reckon they’ve got a minimum of 18months to go based on their past progress on other projects. Plenty of time for Hornby to get to market.

[tomparryharry]

Given the stage Dapol is at, i reckon they’ve got a minimum of 18months to go based on their past progress on other projects. Plenty of time for Hornby to get to market.

 

You could well be right. However, Hornby would have to go some to bring a tender locomotive to market in the proposed timetable. For the sake of expediency, Hornby could re-work the aged Airfix Large Prairie. That leads into a sticky situation. Would Hornby use time & finance to upgrade an older (quite older) model, when the proposed newer model is on the horizon? 

 

I've still got this little thought that Hornby will pull off a blinder, namely a 94xx pannier. After all, Hornby did make a benchmark model with the toad. I wouldn't put it past them to produce a worthy successor to the aged 2721. If they do, good luck to them. The wallets await!

 

Happy modelling,

 

Ian.

[County of Yorkshire]

I think Bachmann are out of this particular race, indeed if Hornby got the paint right on the Hall I think Bachmann would be pretty much pushed out of the GW market with only the niche stuff left.

 

Err - if you want an archetypal GWR tank loco built in any great number and that is not a 2-8-0T or 2-8-2T then you have nowhere else to go other than Bachmann: see 57/8750's, 64xx's 45/4575's, 56xx's. I take your comment on board for tender locos however - it will just leave Bachmann with the Hall, Dukedog and City class to modern standards (the Collett Goods model is too long in the tooth now imo) - given Dapol's forthcoming Mogul and the ongoing rumors of a Hornby Manor. Unlesss Bachmann can spring a Saint or Hawksworth County on us in next years announcements?

 

Barwell's development timescales are glacial, aren't they? The 94xx is still at the CAD stage, 4 years after being announced, and the Warflat and Ransomes crane get no mention at all in this update, and again these were announced around 3/4 years ago iirc.

 

CoY

[County of Yorkshire]

Given the stage Dapol is at, i reckon they’ve got a minimum of 18months to go based on their past progress on other projects. Plenty of time for Hornby to get to market.

 

Personally I thought we might have had a surprise mid-year announcement of a Manor made at the Hornby-sponsored 'move event' at McArthur Glen in Swindon which saw Hinton Manor come out and Ditcheat Manor go in to the Food Court!

 

I have to say I would prefer a Hornby Manor over one from anyone else - Bachmann would take until 2025, Heljan and Oxford are still decidedly ropey in both design and QC, and Dapol, for me, are still something of an unknown quantity - the B4 model seems to have done well, but the GWR streamlined ralicar has the undecorated interior and that strange and visible bump covering the motor. Saying that I genuinely think Hattons would do you a good Manor - and you'd probably get myriad detail variations and wide livery choice too.

 

The Manor is a favourite loco of many and I think Hornby would really do it justice - imagine a 78xx to the same standard as their Castle!

 

CoY

Edited September 2, 2018 by County of Yorkshire

[gwrrob]

 Saying that I genuinely think Hattons would do you a good Manor - any you'd probably get myriad detail variations and wide liver choice too.

 

CoY

 

I whole heartedly agree with that especially as they shelved doing the 4mm King. I would expect them to do an excellent job of it.

[A Murphy]

But nobody has done a Saint, Hornby have all the bits and they would sell like hot-cakes. Sorry, don't meant to divert your thread....

 

Alastair M

[The Johnster]

I think it's a bit late to worry about thread diversion, Alistair!

 

There was a tv advert for 'Crest' soft drinks back in the 70s, with the strapline 'it's frothy, man'.  I shall not comment further at the present time, save to confess to being one of the worst offenders...

 

Actually, I will comment further.  Hornby are probably in theory in a position to spring a reworked large prairie or even a Manor on us, but I doubt their current capitalisation worries give them the confidence to go head to head with an announced model that is in progress.  I would be very surprised (pleasantly) if a 94xx is even on their radar.  Baccy could do the same with a 43xx/73xx.  But I don't rate either event as likely; just my personal opinion.  If I were Hornby, and thinking about a new small GW loco in the wake of the less than sparkling success of the 14/48/58xx, which must have seemed like a good idea but is probably tainted by reputation by now, I'd be looking at a completely from scratch, brand new, correct wheelbase, up to modern standard 2721.  But, if I examine the darker recesses of my cold hearted empty soul, further than the sign that says 'abandon hope all ye' and dodging the tumbleweed, I would not swear to this not being wishlisting!

 

There is a current lack of what I would describe as medium size GW locos, Manors, Moguls, Collett Goods, to modern RTR standards, partly a hangover from the days when such models were the backbone of Mainline's GW output.  Demand is rising as those models are wearing out, at a time when money is less freely available for speculative projects than it was a few years back, and despite these locos being a requirement of all but the smallest BLT GW layouts, useful on secondary and main lines, I do not see any progress anytime soon except for the Dap Mogul; anything that may be led to from that model is pure speculation on our part; it's frothy, man.

Edited September 2, 2018 by The Johnster

[woodenhead]

Bachmann missed a trick not doing a new tender with space for a chip and a speaker on the Collett Goods.

 

I too think a modern day 2721 would be nice plus some clerestory coaches as well.

 

I don’t need a Manor but it’s a big gap that no one is claiming which makes you wonder.

 

Ironically I am about to put half my GW locos back into their boxes, my layout is too SR for them but I still want a Mogul and a Large Prairie.

 

Edited to add phrase "on the Collett Goods"

Edited September 2, 2018 by woodenhead

[Ian Hargrave]

I whole heartedly agree with that especially as they shelved doing the 4mm King. I would expect them to do an excellent job of it.

So here we are with GWR thread drift and each of us has our particular pet projects.

 

I can't disagree with any of the above suspects.I won't rule Hornby out of producing a Prairie either. Their R&D operate under deep cover and not infrequently surprise .

 

The prime candidate for development is the Manor....."primus inter pares" ( apologies for posh Latin) without a doubt.

 

My own candidate for rejuvenation is Hawksworth's County.An unfashionable choice I know but it was a loco that I remember doing sterling work in its later double chimney guise with modified front end.Hornby have the coaching stock for it..So whyever not ?

Their current offering needs consigning to the scrapyard.

[woodenhead]

I must say I always found the County an interesting GW loco.

 

Is it just GW loco threads that drift off like this or is it simply that GW remains the favoured company.

 

There must be so many other prototypes from the other companies that we could talk about, for example how about the tender version of the Beattie Well Tank, not that anyone would do one.

[The Johnster]

How about a rebuilt Taff 'A'; oh, hang on, that's not really getting away from the GW is it?

 

Naughty Johnster; go to your room and think about what you've just done young man and don't come back until the pipe bridge is finished...

[tomparryharry]

Thread drift? Thread drift? On RM Web? You're putting me on....

 

On a slight aside, the Alexandra Docks & Junction Railway had a couple of interesting prairies, which look quite passable on a Hornby Jinty. RCTS, Volume 10.

 

"Get yer chainsaws out"

 

 

Ian.

Edited September 2, 2018 by tomparryharry

[County of Yorkshire]

So here we are with GWR thread drift and each of us has our particular pet projects.

 

I can't disagree with any of the above suspects.I won't rule Hornby out of producing a Prairie either. Their R&D operate under deep cover and not infrequently surprise .

 

The prime candidate for development is the Manor....."primus inter pares" ( apologies for posh Latin) without a doubt.

 

My own candidate for rejuvenation is Hawksworth's County.An unfashionable choice I know but it was a loco that I remember doing sterling work in its later double chimney guise with modified front end.Hornby have the coaching stock for it..So whyever not ?

Their current offering needs consigning to the scrapyard.

I would relish a new Hawksworth County - they were so very prominent on WoE expresses during my modelling period of 1945-1947 and had a powerful, purposeful look about them. Many claim they were the equal of a Castle despite having 2 cylinders!

 

I think a County will move up the R&D longlists as the new build takes shape over the next few years; something that also makes me think we’ll shortly see a Saint announced before anything else GWR.

 

CoY

[tomparryharry]

How about a rebuilt Taff 'A'; oh, hang on, that's not really getting away from the GW is it?

 

Naughty Johnster; go to your room and think about what you've just done young man and don't come back until the pipe bridge is finished...

One day, one day, I'll get my first 'A' class finished. Problem is, I'm too frightened to paint the blessed thing.

 

Ian.

[Pteremy]

Its no longer August. So silly season is over. Lets focus on getting top class Moguls (as specified) and Prairies (as specified) - and only then dream on.

[Budgie]

I'd love a Taff Vale 0-6-2T or three.