souwest Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 Apologies if this is already answered elsewhere - I have looked here and on the internet elsewhere. On blood and custard (1950s - not Strathclyde Transport) coaches, I have seen photos showing some coaches with the red as a red line above the window and some without. Which is correct ? or are both? Thanks Stewart Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted March 3, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 3, 2018 I think it was a regional thing (IIRC the LMR went in for it quite a bit) and/or was applied to some designs of stock but not others. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 The red line was correct and is in all the official specifications. But on some coaches it didn't fit or looked "wrong" so was left off. The Southern were possibly the worst offenders at not putting the top line on. Some information on this website. http://www.bloodandcustard.org/ Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RFS Posted March 3, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 3, 2018 On the SR both styles appeared on Bulleid and Maunsell coaches. I have a pair of Bachmann Bulleid brake seconds, one with the stripe and one without. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted March 3, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 3, 2018 Ex GW design auto trailers featured a non-standard thinner line at cantrail level, carried around the ends of the coaches, a continuation of GWR chocolate and cream livery on these vehicles. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 Ex GW design auto trailers featured a non-standard thinner line at cantrail level, carried around the ends of the coaches, a continuation of GWR chocolate and cream livery on these vehicles. Gresley coaches often omitted the upper crimson strip. Regards, John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Bruce Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 Gresley coaches often omitted the upper crimson strip. Regards, John Isherwood. Shouldn't that be carmine John? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 Shouldn't that be carmine John? ... if that is your preferred term - crimson & cream has had, at least, just as wide a usage in my experience. I don't think that the general membership would thank us for rehearsing that particular debate yet again !! In passing, though, the 'Railway Pictorial and Locomotive Review', in a contemporary article, referred to crimson, not carmine. Regards, John Isherwood. BR STANDARD LIVERIES (RAILWAY PICTORIAL).doc 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium corneliuslundie Posted March 4, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 4, 2018 The issue on older stock was that there was often not a suitable place for the Crimson Lake line. Perhaps the worst were some pre-Grouping Southern corridor carriages which had high windows one side and low ones the other, so there was no-where to put the line on one side. There was official dispensation in these cases. You will have to wait until it is published later in the year, but the next volume in the HMRS Southern Style series will deal with the post Nationalisation period and explains quite a bit about this. Jonathan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 Shouldn't that be carmine John? If, and it's a big if. the shade of red used in the two-tone livery adopted in 1949 was the same as the one used on non-corridor stock, it conformed to British Stsndard BS381c number 540, which was called "crimson". The BR announcement in 1949 of the new liveries did not help by referring to "crimson lake". I understand that the use of the word "carmine" was an initiative of J N Maskelyne, then editor of Model Railway News. I expect that there is a BS number for carmine but it is not known to me. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 ... if that is your preferred term - crimson & cream has had, at least, just as wide a usage in my experience. I don't think that the general membership would thank us for rehearsing that particular debate yet again !! In passing, though, the 'Railway Pictorial and Locomotive Review', in a contemporary article, referred to crimson, not carmine. Regards, John Isherwood. BR STANDARD LIVERIES (RAILWAY PICTORIAL).doc The RP&LR document, compiled from a BR official publication, does not differentiate in its use of the term Crimson Lake between Mainline Corridor Coaches and Local Steam-hauled Trains. All that this tells us, though, is that at the outset it was intended to use the same finishing paint for both. Whether this intention was changed, or whether the body preparation and / or undercoats varied between the two classes of stock, and thereby produced a different appearance, must be researched elsewhere. For what it's worth, I have seen enough photographic evidence to convince me that, where preparation and undercoat were to mainline standards - and it did happen - non-corridor stock could exactly match the crimson of corridor stock when ex-works. (Both matched the crimson used on BR road motors, too). Regards, John Isherwood. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium corneliuslundie Posted March 4, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 4, 2018 Remember that the lining (or lack thereof) will affect your perception of the colour(s). Jonathan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Kirk Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 My memories of crimson/carmine and cream or as we used to say blood and custard was that former LMS coaches and the then new Mk1s had the top strip. Ex LNER Gresley and Thompsons had not. Presumably because the LNER windows extended almost right up to the cantrail and there would not have been room for colour and lining. This was certainly the case for Scottish region but I am fairly sure it was nationwide. best wishes, Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Bruce Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 ... if that is your preferred term - crimson & cream has had, at least, just as wide a usage in my experience. I don't think that the general membership would thank us for rehearsing that particular debate yet again !! In passing, though, the 'Railway Pictorial and Locomotive Review', in a contemporary article, referred to crimson, not carmine. Regards, John Isherwood. BR STANDARD LIVERIES (RAILWAY PICTORIAL).doc Thanks for that John. I give in Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Right Away Posted March 5, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 5, 2018 Whilst trying to keep to the theme of this post, I have a query which I'm sure must have been raised many times before (can't seem to find a definitive answer quickly by searching). It seems almost daft now as like many of us, I clearly remember travelling on Red & Cream stock in the mid 50's on the SR and LMR. Oh for a photographic memory! In the meantime, does anyone know what shade/hue/colour of red was standardised by BR for the Red & Cream/Carmine & Cream - call it what you will, livery. Photographs and original cine show many variations, doubtless many attributed to the characteristics of the films and transparencies of the period. Looking at recent TV footage of stock on the North Yorkshire Moors Railway, there is a considerable difference in the red of their stock to that which I have seen myself on the Bluebell Railway, (the latter's almost identical to that used by Bachmann.) It would appear that there may have been variations in the cream paint used. There may well have been slight variations in colour tone used in BR paint shops throughout the Regions but the degree of difference shown in illustrations would suggest a huge amount. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 Whilst trying to keep to the theme of this post, I have a query which I'm sure must have been raised many times before (can't seem to find a definitive answer quickly by searching). It seems almost daft now as like many of us, I clearly remember travelling on Red & Cream stock in the mid 50's on the SR and LMR. Oh for a photographic memory! In the meantime, does anyone know what shade/hue/colour of red was standardised by BR for the Red & Cream/Carmine & Cream - call it what you will, livery. Photographs and original cine show many variations, doubtless many attributed to the characteristics of the films and transparencies of the period. Looking at recent TV footage of stock on the North Yorkshire Moors Railway, there is a considerable difference in the red of their stock to that which I have seen myself on the Bluebell Railway, (the latter's almost identical to that used by Bachmann.) It would appear that there may have been variations in the cream paint used. There may well have been slight variations in colour tone used in BR paint shops throughout the Regions but the degree of difference shown in illustrations would suggest a huge amount. IMHO, https://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/products/precisionrailway/nationalised/14p303 , which originated as a Cherry Paints product, gives the best rendition of BR Crimson as seen in traffic. Be aware, though, that the finished shade of crimson is dependant upon the undercoat used; try using it over cream, grey and red oxide undercoats to see this effect. In passing, I am convinced that this effect is what leads many modellers to believe that the crimson used on corridor coaches was lighter than that used on suburban stock. Regards, John Isherwood. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 The issue on older stock was that there was often not a suitable place for the Crimson Lake line. Perhaps the worst were some pre-Grouping Southern corridor carriages which had high windows one side and low ones the other, so there was no-where to put the line on one side. There was official dispensation in these cases. You will have to wait until it is published later in the year, but the next volume in the HMRS Southern Style series will deal with the post Nationalisation period and explains quite a bit about this. Jonathan I presume you're referring to Maunsell's - so called - High Window stock built from 1929 onwards ( definitely post-grouping ) ...... very few pre-grouping coaches of any sort received the carmine / crimson / red / "blood & custard" livery. On the Southern I think the scheme was virtually restricted to former SECR corridor stock - of which there wasn't a lot in any case ! ......... revenue-earning Brighton corridor stock - excluding pull& push sets - was extinct by this time but the one survivor ( the inspection saloon ) was repainted. ( I don't think any LSWR 'Ironclads' were so treated.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 Ex GW design auto trailers featured a non-standard thinner line at cantrail level, carried around the ends of the coaches, a continuation of GWR chocolate and cream livery on these vehicles. Ex-GWR railcars also had a very thin crimson line applied in a similar way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 And the brake behind doesn't seem to have one. Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted March 5, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 5, 2018 And the brake behind doesn't seem to have one. Jason Oddly enough I think it does. Blow the image up a little and a hint of red appears below the cantrail. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium corneliuslundie Posted March 5, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 5, 2018 Sorry, I was writing from memory of dealing with proofs of the book. I am no expert on the Southern. The specific stock referred to is the "high window" Maunsell stock. Apparently some were painted with the top Crimson band on one side. Re-reading what the author of the book has written, I get the impression that the new livery instructions were written by ex-LMS staff with ex-LMS locos and stock in mind. They weren't aware of some of the issues their instructions would raise for stock of other companies, not rust regarding the upper crimson line but in all sorts of ways (possibly equally applicable to the LMS's own pre-grouping vehicles). Jonathan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall5 Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 I don't know if this will help. Ray. BR Swindon painting specs.PDF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 One other factor was that the crmson/carmine faded over time, almost to an orange shade. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 One other factor was that the crmson/carmine faded over time, almost to an orange shade. See #16 above. Regards, John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium corneliuslundie Posted March 5, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 5, 2018 BR Crimson has been stated to be colour BS No 540 of the 1948 edition of British Standard BS381C "Colours for ready mixed paints". The equivalent reference in BS 2660: 1955 is 1-025 which is given in the standard as being 5.0 R 2.5/12. I hope this helps. Jonathan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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