Spelling

[Pacific231G]

I firmly believe that the word "correct" should be expunged both from comments on other people's text and from railway modelling.

I try to use accepted spellings and grammar in what I write and quite often go back to edit a post if  I spot a mistake.  if I'm quoting someone else's text, it seems only polite to change any typos but I don't think it's ever polite to tell someone else in public that they're wrong unless their error may have consequences.

 

I won't name him but I used to direct a live news programme with a presenter who had once been an English teacher. On one particularly frantic news day when scripts were arriving with seconds to spare (or sometimes not) he decided to complain that a particular word had been misspelt on a script that he was about to read out on air. In the gallery (production control room) we were all struggling to keep things from falling apart so this particular pedantry produced the priceless explosion from the already harassed producer  " X, You're paid to read the effing script not effing mark it"  (but he didn't say effing!) 

Edited October 3, 2018 by Pacific231G

[BWsTrains]

The point on "politeness" re feedback is very well made.

 

I was taught grammar "right proper" (but that was after 1 fail of English O-Level so it was probably drummed into me) and can't help wince when I see the more extreme errors, it's a reflex.

 

On the other hand, after 2 years on here I'm amused at the irony of this topic when elsewhere the slightest rivet out of place, error of wheel diameter, factual error on signaling etiquette or loyalty to a favoured manufacturer can trigger "too and fro" debate that can turn even less polite, occasionally verging on vitriolic and irrational!

 

So perhaps the real take-away is, "whatever niggles us, it most likely niggles others less, so get over it"

 

Colin

 

 

Edited to add the comma, which as Pacific231G says, makes reading and sense a lot clearer. An unintentional but good example of the importance of good punctuation!

Edited October 4, 2018 by BWsTrains

[Alex TM]

Hi again,

 

Although a little off topic, one of the challenges in our time is that formal grammar hasn't been taught for decades.  If you work solely in English then experience may help compensate, however it's a true pain when you have to work in other languages whether living or dead.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[PaulCheffus]

Many people cannot see their own spelling or gramatical errors, despite having a clear knowledge of both. Years of experience in the printing and graphics industry has confirmed this to me time and time again. Having served my compositor’s apprenticeship many years ago in a small but very professional print shop, I had it drummed into me that you NEVER proofread your own typesetting.

 

 

Hi

 

Very true.

 

My Masters dissertation was proof read by four different people and each one found mistakes that the others had missed.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[melmerby]

Something that needs to be taken into consideration as well is aging.

I used to be the go to for spelling checks at work, something that I couldn't do now I'm into my 70s.

At one time I wouldn't hesitate when writing "Seperate" (or is it "Separate"?), Wether or Whether? etc. Now I have to double check I have got the right word and spelling!

 

Maybe I should just let it go?

 

Keith

[Nearholmer]

“formal grammar hasn't been taught for decades.“

 

Well, it has been for the past c5 years, to an almost ludicrous degree. We are, right now, educating a huge cohort of future-pedants in accordance with the Gove-led version of the National Curriculum, and thereby sapping the love of language from millions of children.

[Alex TM]

Sadly, it seems that it's not happening up here (i.e. the teaching of grammar).  A couple of friends are teachers.

 

I went to university as a mature student in 1994; during our last two years we had a scheme to work with school leavers to explain concepts such as 'sentence structure' and 'paragraphs'.

 

I'll stop moaning for the moment ..... !

[robert17649]

Nonsense Clive, I have followed your posts on many threads, no problems for me to know what your'e saying and as in many replies here, people obviously know what you mean......spelling/grammar or whatever bullsh*t the pedants wish to purvey(and aren't they generally the same ones!!) doesn't really matter as long as the post carries the meaning/message you want it to and yours are readily understood.

 

Rgds........Mike

A friend of mine at med school was the UK scrabble champion, she was also dyslexic, so am I but we both qualified and our writing is terrible not through laziness or owt else it's just terrible.

 

of course my stroke 20 years ago means my writing is even more terrible and the dyslexia hasn't improved.

 

 

I agree wholeheartedly with IKKS.

Edited October 3, 2018 by robert17649

[Ian J.]

So was quoting Windows character map incorrect then?

 

Character map.JPG

 

Keith

 

Not as such. Microsoft Windows Character Map and Windows Keyboard system still recognises the upper nibble for ASCII, and you can copy a character from that to anywhere. For how long Microsoft can hold out with that is anyone's guess, though I imagine there is a way to enter Unicode on Windows 10 though I know not how to do it (search online says apparently on 7 and before, it was four character number followed by Alt+X).

 

However, if you were to try and type the upper nibble number directly into say a web browser that only recognises Unicode, then it won't work. Also, it won't work on Linux (which I'm on) and probably therefore not on Android (which is Linux based). So there are plenty of common devices out in the wild that won't automatically pick up the upper nibble as ASCII, if they will even recognise the Alt+xxxx combination. On Linux Mint, Unicode is done by ctrl+shift+u, xxxx, then enter (where xxxx is hex characters 0 to F), so ß is [ctrl]+[shift]+00DF[enter].

Edited October 3, 2018 by Ian J.

[Pacific231G]

The point on "politeness" re feedback is very well made.

 

I was taught grammar "right proper" (but that was after 1 fail of English O-Level so it was probably drummed into me) and can't help wince when I see the more extreme errors, it's a reflex.

 

On the other hand, after 2 years on here I'm amused at the irony of this topic when elsewhere the slightest rivet out of place, error of wheel diameter, factual error on signaling etiquette or loyalty to a favoured manufacturer can trigger "too and fro" debate that can turn even less polite, occasionally verging on vitriolic and irrational!

 

So perhaps the real take-away is, "whatever niggles us, it most likely niggles others less so get over it"

 

Colin

Shouldn't that be "whatever niggles us, it most likely niggles others less, so get over it" ?

I jest of course, though it did take me a moment to decode that sentence, and totally agree with your sentiments. 

 

People learning to write in English for the first time, whether youngsters or non-English speakers, do need a set of unambiguous instructions to guide them through it and don't need ambiguity.

The same is true for anyone learning any craft but once they've mastered it they don't need to keep being told how to do it correctly. Would you really stand over a master stone mason and tell her she's holding her chisel incorrectly (though I'll bet that even the most highly skilled female engraver has to put up with more than enough mansplaining) 

I'm certainly not interested in some grammarian's opinion on the "correct" order of adjectives and even less in being told off for using split infiniitives (nor, since I'm neither American nor a p.w. engineer, for not calling points turnouts)

 

In my humble opinion, the two main causes of poorly written English are people not being taught the basic tools, including sentence structure and paragraphs, as a foundation to build on themselves and others trying to turn our language into a pedantic set of over-complex rules that only they and their mates fully understand.  That would stifle anyone trying to write clearly and elegantly while also being terrified of " making a mistake". Compared with that, spelling errors and minor grammatical glitches fade into insignificance.

Edited October 3, 2018 by Pacific231G

[steve1]

I write for a living and, in order to get the job, had to undertake written spelling, grammar and punctuation tests. (Even though

I was 56 at the time.)

 

Because of my job, spelling and grammatical errors (plus Americanisms such as center and color) leap off the page at me. However,

I rarely, if ever, comment as this just a model railway forum and we're here for fun, not English lessons.

 

steve

[rilksy]

Hi Clive, I'm in total agreement with you on this.

I've always been a bit of an anorak when it comes to good spelling and grammar, it's just a personal thing. It was drummed into me at grammar school in the early 60's. It was always a case of 'do it right or else detention'.

As you get older and experience the trials and tribulations of life you start to realise that as long as you get the message across, does perfect spelling and grammar really matter that much. It is really down to the individual.

However I am still very good at making errors of my own like getting my merds wuddled or making silly smelling pistakes, just like Spike Milligna the well known typing error!

The truth is that it's probably best not to take ourselves or our views and opinions too seriously.

Good on you, keep up the brilliant thread, although I think some of your music is a bit dodgy.....TeeHeee.  Brian

[E3109]

“formal grammar hasn't been taught for decades.“

Well, it has been for the past c5 years, to an almost ludicrous degree. We are, right now, educating a huge cohort of future-pedants in accordance with the Gove-led version of the National Curriculum, and thereby sapping the love of language from millions of children.

Grammar is important in itself, but I don't see the point of learning its rules by rote.

If English is your mother tongue, the 'rules' such as they are come naturally anyway, although it must be said that English grammar presents difficulties with foreign speakers.

I'm sure this is true for most languages, but our mother tongue seems especially complex in this regard, what with all the irregular verbs and suchlike.

 

When I lived in Asia I always found the lack of tense endearing, for instance "I go shop" could mean I've been or I'm going and that isn't a criticism at all, some languages don't really have a sense of tense as it's usually clear from the context.

 

In any case, the Cambodians I know and knew speak far better English than I speak Khmer!

[Oldddudders]

Sadly, it seems that it's not happening up here (i.e. the teaching of grammar).  A couple of friends are teachers.

I find it disquieting when teachers - anglo-saxon by birth, not incomers for whom English is not a first language, but who may still be fine teachers - demonstrate that their command of English is inferior. Regrettably I see some written examples on RMweb, unconnected with typing errors or predictive text.

 

The ultimate expression of this was a graduate younger teacher, brought in over Sherry’s head late in her career, who made an address to the class “Me and Mrs Burcher ....” instead of Mrs Burcher and I, of course. I’d have had her sacked on the spot. How on earth can we employ teachers who can’t manage their own language? How can we trust them with the education of others? Sherry decided to leave at the end of that term!

[Pacific231G]

I find it disquieting when teachers - anglo-saxon by birth, not incomers for whom English is not a first language, but who may still be fine teachers - demonstrate that their command of English is inferior. Regrettably I see some written examples on RMweb, unconnected with typing errors or predictive text.

 

The ultimate expression of this was a graduate younger teacher, brought in over Sherry’s head late in her career, who made an address to the class “Me and Mrs Burcher ....” instead of Mrs Burcher and I, of course. I’d have had her sacked on the spot. How on earth can we employ teachers who can’t manage their own language? How can we trust them with the education of others? Sherry decided to leave at the end of that term!

Was that at the start of the sentence or at the end?. In a school full of classicists and grammarians  I was actually taught to write something like "..so I hope you'll give Mr.Porter and I your full support" that should of course be "..so I hope you'll give Mr. Porter and me your full support!" 

I is the subject of the sentence and me is the object so it would be "Mrs. Higgs and I will be teaching you particle physics this term" not "Mrs. May and me will be in charge of the school visit to Brussels in March." 

I don't know if I was simply mistaught or whether the accepted use of I and me has changed since the early 1960s. Any use of the word "me" seemed to regarded as rather common so we would be expected to say "It is I" not "It's me". 

Edited October 4, 2018 by Pacific231G

[bike2steam]

The ultimate expression of this was a graduate younger teacher, brought in over Sherry’s head late in her career, who made an address to the class “Me and Mrs Burcher ....” instead of Mrs Burcher and I, of course. I’d have had her sacked on the spot. 

Perhaps it's a result of todays nanny state that well educated people are asked to 'dumb-down' their grammar so as not to make the lesser educated feel inferior. Strange things seem to be happening these days.

Edited October 4, 2018 by bike2steam

[Nearholmer]

I think snobbery goes back a lot earlier that the foundation of the welfare state.

 

The real tragedy is that some people continue to wield their knowledge of the pettifogging details of Victorian RP as a sort of light machine gun in a game of 'snob wars'.

 

George Bernard Shaw: It is impossible for an Englishman to open his mouth without making some other Englishman hate or despise him.

[Ashcombe]

Was that at the start of the sentence or at the end?. In a school full of classicists and grammarians  I was actually taught to write something like "..so I hope you'll give Mr.Porter and I your full support" that should of course be "..so I hope you'll give Mr. Porter and me your full support!" 

I is the subject of the sentence and me is the object so it would be "Mrs. Higgs and I will be teaching you particle physics this term" not "Mrs. May and me will be in charge of the school visit to Brussels in March." 

I don't know if I was simply mistaught or whether the accepted use of I and me has changed since the early 1960s. Any use of the word "me" seemed to regarded as rather common so we would be expected to say "It is I" not "It's me".

 

It was in the context of: “Me and Mrs. Burcher are concerned about behaviour.”

 

As soon as possible, I deliberately used a sentence in which I included the teaching assistants (no degree required!), who were present at the time, by saying, “Mrs. Connor, Mrs. Ecclestone and I would like.......”.

Both of those ladies understood exactly what grammatical point was being made.

 

On another occasion, the same irritating teacher had reason to speak to me about selecting pupils for a particular purpose.

She addressed me thus, ”Have you chose the children yet?”

Not believing what I was hearing, I replied, “Pardon?”

Which resulted in a shouted response, “HAVE YOU CHOSE YOUR CHILDREN YET?”

 

You rightly say that there is confusion over the use of these personal pronouns which can result in people using “myself”!!

 

That is a whole other issue!

[tomparryharry]

Wee did Spellinge wen I wuZ yunga an Wee diddnot com too eny arm. I reeEly duzznt undsstan wot the world iz cumin too. 

 

I recently raised this very subject with my good friend, Algernon Go-Lightly. We discussed the declining standard of grammar, and enunciation. Algernon agreed, and stated that things have gone downhill since the commoners have been allowed into the lower chambers in Westminster.

 

Tootle Pip!

 

Colonel Knuttt (Retired, off to flog some servants).

Edited October 4, 2018 by tomparryharry

[BWsTrains]

Further tangent - it's a good job accents don't transfer to the typed page.

 

When we landed at Glasgow, the taxi driver gave us a generous "welcome to Scotland" monologue the whole way into town. On arriving, my wife, who's spoken English all her life said "I didn't understand a single word of that".

 

Colin (from Melbourne)

[melmerby]

 

Colonel Knuttt (Retired, off to flog some servants).

On e-bay?

 

Keith

[melmerby]

Spelling obviously isn't too important when you inhabit a higher plain.

 

Seen outside a church in block capitals: "The Story of the Old Testiment"

 

Keith

[Colin_McLeod]

Am I allowed to comment on the word "plain" lol.

[Steamport Southport]

To be pacific that was a bit of a damp squid.

 

I suppose we really must have an escape goat and nip this in the butt.  But I'll bit my time and to all intensive porpoises I'll have to curve my enthusiasm.

 

Don't forget it's a doggie dog world out there. Does it matter if someone makes a foe par?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Alex TM]

Further tangent - it's a good job accents don't transfer to the typed page.

 

When we landed at Glasgow, the taxi driver gave us a generous "welcome to Scotland" monologue the whole way into town. On arriving, my wife, who's spoken English all her life said "I didn't understand a single word of that".

 

Colin (from Melbourne)

Hi,

 

I was born in Glasgow, and grew up just outside of the city.  Anyway, I hope you're wife doesn't have to to try to understand the language of some of the younger generations in that city - it's almost devoid of consonants.  One local comedian (and former teacher) describes the current version of the dialect as sounding like an 'adenoidal hyena'!

 

Regards,

 

Alex.