Hornby - New tooling - Large Prairie

[The Johnster]

Ideally we want sliding cab shutters that slide, of course, but being able to position them would be a big advantage in the same way that separate or removable top feeds for panniers would.  I like the idea of being able to suggest inclement weather and sliding cab shutters would help with this.  I imagine the reality was that coal dust got in the sliders and they jammed up anyway, though.

 

Panniers and 14xx are easier; the shutters were inside and only need a piece of card behind the cab cutout reveal.  

 

The new Hornby 5101 seems to have etched brass bits, including the whistle shield, and cab shutters are prime candidates for such treatments.  

 

As for the Terrier, it seems to me that H must have been at an advanced stage with this and probably originally intended it for release in 2020.  If this is true and they (or their Chinese subcontractors) had booked assembly and packing slots, they might have held another model back specifically to left-field Rails of Sheffield.  The model held back would probably have been the 5101, given the release date of the Collett suburbans.  H have done well out of this, as both the Terrier and the suburbans have sold well and are probably making profit by now, and the 5101 will be a good seller as well.

[tomparryharry]

1 minute ago, The Johnster said:

Ideally we want sliding cab shutters that slide, of course, but being able to position them would be a big advantage in the same way that separate or removable top feeds for panniers would.  I like the idea of being able to suggest inclement weather and sliding cab shutters would help with this.  I imagine the reality was that coal dust got in the sliders and they jammed up anyway, though.

 

Panniers and 14xx are easier; the shutters were inside and only need a piece of card behind the cab cutout reveal.  

 

The new Hornby 5101 seems to have etched brass bits, including the whistle shield, and cab shutters are prime candidates for such treatments.  

 

As for the Terrier, it seems to me that H must have been at an advanced stage with this and probably originally intended it for release in 2020.  If this is true and they (or their Chinese subcontractors) had booked assembly and packing slots, they might have held another model back specifically to left-field Rails of Sheffield.  The model held back would probably have been the 5101, given the release date of the Collett suburbans.  H have done well out of this, as both the Terrier and the suburbans have sold well and are probably making profit by now, and the 5101 will be a good seller as well.

Err, no, I don't think so. A cab shutter is about 3/16" solid steel plate, and is usually mounted externally to the cab. As such, coal dust doesn't get too much into the cab runner, and you can bet that if inclement weather came along, the crew would get that working pretty smartish!

[The Johnster]

No doubt with a big 'ammer if necessary!

[mdvle]

On 26/10/2019 at 06:17, Miss Prism said:

 

I hope that is so, but as yet there is no sign of a redraw. Dapol's notices of 'Awaiting final CADs' almost gives the impression the design is being done by an outside party.

 

 

It's an outside possibility that Dapol could be proceeding with it but not making anything public until the last moment given the competition with Hornby.

 

Equally possible Dapol focusing on the Mogul for now with the Prairie to come later after Hornby's version arrives.

 

[The Stationmaster]

16 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

It's an outside possibility that Dapol could be proceeding with it but not making anything public until the last moment given the competition with Hornby.

 

Equally possible Dapol focusing on the Mogul for now with the Prairie to come later after Hornby's version arrives.

 

I formed a strong impression from a recent conversation with someone who has an involvement at Dapol that they intend to proceed with their prairie.  Things can of course change as can plans but if they are investing in work on its design that equally suggests that they hope to make use of that work although they do of course have other models under development. 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

17 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

I formed a strong impression from a recent conversation with someone who has an involvement at Dapol that they intend to proceed with their prairie.  Things can of course change as can plans but if they are investing in work on its design that equally suggests that they hope to make use of that work although they do of course have other models under development. 

Past form suggests to me that it will be on the back burner, pending the Hornby model's market reception.

 

Dapol have six all new OO traction models to release: Class 21/29, Class 59, Terrier, Mogul, Large Prairie, SECR D class. Just those six all new OO traction models is an ambitious list for any of the present group of RTR OO manufacturers to progress in timely fashion, in the present environment.

 

Look at Dapol's full announcement list, which they have plans to add to in early November. No idea what their process capacity is, but it is a long list in three scales; my opinion, some prioritisation decisions will be required.

[The Johnster]

If I were Dapol, and I'm not nor am I any sort of expert in planning, designing, building (or having built), or marketing model railway locomotives, I'd be pushing the mogul before the prairie; it has, IMHO, a greater reservoir of demand built up as this loco has not been available RTR for some time.  Problem with this is that it means appearing to give up on the prairie in the face of aggressive marketing of Hornby's, and unless the Dapol has some significant advantage over the Hornby it'll be hard to find a niche in the market for it.  This'd have to be some sort of party trick, either in the form of electronic wizardry, perhaps working reverser, or a feature the Hornby won't have, like working Stephenson valve gear visible between the frames, and it must be provided at a price that makes the loco competitive with the Hornby; certainly well below £200 whatever all-singing all-dancing features it, um, features.

 

Dap have shot themselves in the foot with a prairie that looked severely compromised from the CAD artwork, and attracted adverse comment from us for it.  This has possibly meant that the loco was initially delayed in favour of the mogul while the mistakes were corrected, but Dap have paid a price for listening to our complaints and Hornby have blindsided them.  Damned if they did and damned if they didn't.  A smaller company going head to head with a bigger one has few advantages, but one is that they are capable of being lighter footed (I don't mean that in the American sense, btw) and quicker off the mark, an advantage squandered in this instance by foot shooting.  

 

The mogul, OTOH, is a fresh field, and unblemished by adverse comment.  It should be a very popular model, so long as it is realistic and runs well.  Very few steam age GW/WR layouts except very small BLTs can claim not to need at least one; well over 300 were built and survived to BR days.  They got everywhere and were widely geographically dispersed.  The same can be said of the large prairie of course, but that is to some extent a horse that has already partly bolted so far as Dap are concerned

 

I wonder, but we will never know until Simon Kohler retires and publishes his memoirs (!), if Hornby were considering a prairie at all until Dap announced theirs, then looked at the idea, and decided to go for it when Dap's loco attracted adverse comment as an easy quick build project for which they'd already done the research or inherited it from Airfix.  I've commented before that Simon is a canny operator who plays things close to the chest, but he is also very aggressive and ruthless; this is of course exactly what Hornby need now just!

[Steamport Southport]

The Hornby Prairie was hinted at quite some time before Dapol announced one.

 

Remember the photo of the GWR vacuum pipe at Didcot which couldn't be anything else but 6106?

 

 

 

Jason

[Miss Prism]

39 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

The mogul, OTOH, is a fresh field, and unblemished by adverse comment.

 

I recognize and accept the need for 'prioritisation decisions', but nevertheless I was surprised the development on the Mogul appeared to halt abruptly over a year ago. Having repositioned the cylinders correctly, there is still a significant related issue, namely that the slidebars are far too short and the conn rod is far too long. (This chassis issue is shared with the large Prairie of course.)

 

[Islesy]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

The Hornby Prairie was hinted at quite some time before Dapol announced one.

 

Remember the photo of the GWR vacuum pipe at Didcot which couldn't be anything else but 6106?

 

 

 

Jason

 

You're not referring to this picture, are you Jason? If so, this was rather strangely attached to the back of Fonmon when we measured her at Ribble at the beginning of August 2017. The Prairie was measured at Didcot on 17 August 2017 and looking back at my notes, I first started research around April that year...

[tomparryharry]

14 hours ago, Islesy said:

 

You're not referring to this picture, are you Jason? If so, this was rather strangely attached to the back of Fonmon when we measured her at Ribble at the beginning of August 2017. The Prairie was measured at Didcot on 17 August 2017 and looking back at my notes, I first started research around April that year...

 

I'd guess Fonmon was retro-fitted for vacuum brake when at Avon Valley. Lots of wagons bear the logo on the swan neck.  I'd guess someone went looking for the required parts, and Port of Bristol Authority was just down the road.

 

Edited October 29, 2019 by tomparryharry
spelling.

[Steamport Southport]

19 hours ago, Islesy said:

 

You're not referring to this picture, are you Jason? If so, this was rather strangely attached to the back of Fonmon when we measured her at Ribble at the beginning of August 2017. The Prairie was measured at Didcot on 17 August 2017 and looking back at my notes, I first started research around April that year...

 

Ah! So that's what it was.

 

I must be clairvoyant to have seen that and guessed at a 61XX....

 

 

 

 

 

Jason

[adb968008]

7 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

 

I'd guess Fonmon was retro-fitted for vacuum brake when at Avon Valley. Lots of wagons bear the logo on the swan neck.  I'd guess someone went looking for the required parts, and Port of Bristol Authority was just down the road.

 

And the biggest christmas tree of all, Barry Scrapyard not much further

 

worth noting its buffers are a preservation addition too...

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/peckett-sons-works-no-1636-fonmon-0-6-0st/

Edited October 29, 2019 by adb968008

[tomparryharry]

1 minute ago, adb968008 said:

And the biggest christmas tree of all, Barry Scrapyard not much further

 

Yes, I well remember buying some 18 & 21" vacuum cylinders from Mr Woodham himself.

[The Johnster]

I once bought a lubricator for a 57xx from Dai Woodham on behalf of it’s owners.  I’d removed from the loco ( this was pre-BSLAG days) and presented it to The Man Himself in the warm cigar smoke filled grounded brake van Dai used as his office.  He poured me a cup of very welcome tea,, picked it up and ‘hefted’ it,and announced ‘£1.80, butty’; scrappys work by weight. 

 

Great days!

[Hal Nail]

10 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Great days!

Being the spritely young thing that I am has its advantages but I do often feel like I missed out when I read stories like that.

 

I saw a diesel pull passengers once tho!

[Les1952]

On 28/10/2019 at 18:43, Miss Prism said:

 

I recognize and accept the need for 'prioritisation decisions', but nevertheless I was surprised the development on the Mogul appeared to halt abruptly over a year ago. Having repositioned the cylinders correctly, there is still a significant related issue, namely that the slidebars are far too short and the conn rod is far too long. (This chassis issue is shared with the large Prairie of course.)

 

 

Talking to Dapol the fact that nothing appears in public is almost the exact opposite of "stopped".  It invariably means there is work going on behind the scenes.  The Dapol mogul and prairie are a big technological advance on anything they have done before, so a lot of tweaks going in that we will just not see before completion.

 

Les

 

[tomparryharry]

On 30/10/2019 at 13:21, Les1952 said:

 

Talking to Dapol the fact that nothing appears in public is almost the exact opposite of "stopped".  It invariably means there is work going on behind the scenes.  The Dapol mogul and prairie are a big technological advance on anything they have done before, so a lot of tweaks going in that we will just not see before completion.

 

Les

 

 

Will Warley bring lots of surprises? I hope so!

[The Johnster]

It's frothy, man. 

 

And if you understand that reference you must be nearly as old as wot I is...

[The Stationmaster]

15 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

 

Will Warley bring lots of surprises? I hope so!

Probably - but I doubt they'll come from Hornby as they nowadays seem to prefer their much older method of doing an announcement at a hotel in Margate. (which avoids their end purchasers asking questions and making critical comments).  So they'll most likely restrict 'new' to stuff due to reach the market this year and with any sense they'kll have made sure a container load of prairies will have cleared customs the week before the show so all the retailers will have them ready to sell.

 

But no doubt some other 'manufacturers' will be making announcements - and possibly showing such things as CADs or even EPs of upcoming models.

[Ian Hargrave]

And I hope Hornby’s presence at the NEC this year will revert to the dynamic and interactive presentation it achieved a couple of shows ago.rather than the frankly underwhelming,anodyne  stands of the last couple of years which were notable only for the last year’s televised standoff with Rails.

 

It would be nice to see members of the R&D team there again....or are we asking too much ?

[gwrrob]

3 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

 

It would be nice to see members of the R&D team there again....or are we asking too much ?

 

Disappointed not to have seen Paul Isles at the recent GETS show last month.

[Neal Ball]

19 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

........But no doubt some other 'manufacturers' will be making announcements - and possibly showing such things as CADs or even EPs of upcoming models.

 

Is that a strong hint there Mike?

 

Am I reading too much into the quote marks around manufacturers - sounds like a retailer is going to announce something.....

 

Clearly it would be great if Hornby managed to get a container of Priaries into the country for Warley - that would mean they would need to be on the high seas as we speak. Which if that was the case, they would be shouting it from the rooftops by now - I would if it was my product :-)

 

Maybe at 09:15 I need to head for the Hornby stand, just in case they have air-freighted an initial batch in :-) 

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Neal Ball said:

 

Is that a strong hint there Mike?

 

Am I reading too much into the quote marks around manufacturers - sounds like a retailer is going to announce something.....

 

Clearly it would be great if Hornby managed to get a container of Priaries into the country for Warley - that would mean they would need to be on the high seas as we speak. Which if that was the case, they would be shouting it from the rooftops by now - I would if it was my product :-)

 

Maybe at 09:15 I need to head for the Hornby stand, just in case they have air-freighted an initial batch in :-) 

They don't sell on the Hornby stand Neal - unless they've decided to make a change this year (which I doubt because, as Ian has said above, in recent years they have got distinctly lack lustre at the big shows having gone back to the past with their Margate release day thing instead of feeding us interest rousing titbits in the way The Engine Shed used to do).  And of course this year end will come the big 'brave new, exciting, Hornby' presentation of what the new management can do so while there might possibly be some subtle teasers I doubt we'll see anything concrete as that would spoil their Margate showmanship fun.  And I seriously wonder if the new old markering approach is up to doing subtle teasers in any case.

 

As for announcements at Warley it has become the fashion in recent years for new items to be announced or even suddenly presented to the public at the two biggest shows and certain key gauge/scale related shows. So no strong hint there Neil but on past form I would be surprised if there are no announcements/revelations.

[Neal Ball]

Thanks Mike.