Hornby - New tooling - Large Prairie

[Budgie]

On 14/10/2019 at 01:52, phil-b259 said:

On tender locos room is only really available for speaker in the tender - which means the decoder goes in there too. While the resulting components are not as high as the Ringfield motor drives seen in the days of old, in most cases they are too high to permit a coal less tender to be modelled.

 

Why can't the speaker be put below the chimney?

[The Great Bear]

27 minutes ago, Budgie said:

 

Why can't the speaker be put below the chimney?

 

I'm no expert, but I believe the bigger the speaker, the more bass it has and so the more realistic the sound. Whilst various "cube" speakers improve what you can get from a small speaker I think as a principle this still holds. So whilst a small speaker could go in the smokebox, boiler a bigger speaker elsewhere would give better sound quality.

[Star-rider]

9 hours ago, melmerby said:

I wonder why so many model GWR locos get the "G W R" livery treatment when it was one of the shortest periods for a particular livery.

Being mainly wartime meant that many appeared not to get it for the first few years anyway.

 

This frustrates me as well. I quite fancied the Bachmann 64XX which I think has had two releases now in GWR livery both of which I've shyed away from as I'm focused "sometime in the '30s."

 

I don't think they even realise they are missing a sale.

 

Many people will have got over this doing thier own paint job but personally I don't have the skill or time.

[ndg910]

30 minutes ago, Star-rider said:

 

This frustrates me as well. I quite fancied the Bachmann 64XX which I think has had two releases now in GWR livery both of which I've shyed away from as I'm focused "sometime in the '30s."

 

I don't think they even realise they are missing a sale.

 

Many people will have got over this doing thier own paint job but personally I don't have the skill or time.

I’m with you on the GWR livery. Bachmann traditionally do that livery first and then eventually Shirtbutton and then Great Western. The 64xx is an unusual animal in that only the first few(10 I think) ever legitimately wore Great Western. I’m happy to wait. Same with the large Prairies the choices are in my view a bit late in the GWR era for me. Am sure next year or 2021 there will be some variety with liveries to suit me. 
 

im quite capable of making the changes but why should I.

[gwrrob]

Hornby have also never done their Grange in GWR livery with them preferring the shirt button.

[Steamport Southport]

Maybe because of forty years or so experience they know which ones sell and which ones are left in the warehouse to end up in the bargain bin.

 

Just a thought....

 

 

 

Jason

[tomparryharry]

1 hour ago, ndg910 said:

I’m with you on the GWR livery. Bachmann traditionally do that livery first and then eventually Shirtbutton and then Great Western. The 64xx is an unusual animal in that only the first few(10 I think) ever legitimately wore Great Western. I’m happy to wait. Same with the large Prairies the choices are in my view a bit late in the GWR era for me. Am sure next year or 2021 there will be some variety with liveries to suit me. 
 

im quite capable of making the changes but why should I.

 

I need to check my Cowbridge Railway book, but I'm fairly sure it shows a 64xx in Great Western livery, without top feed, to boot. (6425?).

 

I'll try to look for it.

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, tomparryharry said:

 

I need to check my Cowbridge Railway book, but I'm fairly sure it shows a 64xx in Great Western livery, without top feed, to boot. (6425?).

 

I'll try to look for it.

The first ten 64XX were built in 1932, the next ten in '34, ten in '35 and a final ten in '37

The first 74XXs were built in 1936

The first 20 of the larger wheeled 54XX were built in 1931/2 and another 5 in '35

Only locos built after the war (later 74XXs) had top feeds from new, by then some earlier ones had also gained them.

Edit. The shirtbutton came in in the latter half of 1934

Edited October 15, 2019 by melmerby

[john dew]

Locos built in 1938 would have the shirt button......I am guessing that it is highly likely they would still have that livery in 1948?

 

Birkenhead were allocated a number of new 41xx in 1938.....I dont mind changing the buffer beam #s but not too keen on replacing the GWR with a Shirt Button.

 

Comments on balance of probability would be appreciated

 

Regards

 

John

[The Johnster]

Nowadays, stock is repainted very quickly when changes of ownership or even rebranding by current owners, but in Big 4, and for that matter BR days, locos were not repainted unless and until it was necessary, usually at full overhauls, which in turn depended on mileage accrued and wear adjustments taken up since new or last overhaul (unless some mishap brought it forward).  A large prairie is unlikely to accumulate mileage as quickly as a Castle or Hall, or even a 43xx, so it is entirely possible that a Birkenhead loco painted in '38 whose work is mostly running down to Chester and back would last until '48 and beyond in that livery.  OTOH, a sister 1938 loco might well have been repainted recently into G W R livery by '48...

 

It's best to work from dated and verified photographic evidence whenever that is available, but when it isn't one has to go with one's assessment of what is most likely until better information comes to light!

 

 

[phil-b259]

6 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Maybe because of forty years or so experience they know which ones sell and which ones are left in the warehouse to end up in the bargain bin.

 

Just a thought....

 

 

 

Jason

 

 

I would say it’s the other way round!

 

Hornby (and to a lesser extent Bachmann) are very good at releasing identically livered locos year after year and then wonder why they don’t sell - whiteness their King Arthur’s in Olive which have ALL carried exactly the same post 1936 style.

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

7 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

...Hornby (and to a lesser extent Bachmann) are very good at releasing identically livered locos year after year and then wonder why they don’t sell...

The mediators of this process are the retailers. They are the customers of the manufacturing businesses, and what they order in sufficient quantity from the manufacturer's proposed products listings is what is manufactured, and thus ends up on sale to us, the end users.

 

There is a weakness in this process. Many retailers will naturally select what is ordered on the basis of 'what sold', and since only what is stocked can be sold, their opinion of what is most wanted by their customers is - inevitably - most often going to be confirmed. (To this day I make a point of buying anything of GWR origin required for a project or whatever, privately second hand: specifically to remove 'votes' for GWR at retail. Of course it was 'popular' in model form; more of it was available to folk who wanted RTR models.)

 

[tomparryharry]

Having checked my Cowbridge Railway book, there is indeed a photo of 6425, but sans logo of any kind. Funnily enough, no topfeed either, but the photo shows a kink in the handrail, where the pipe cover travels underneath the handrail.

 

Back to square one, methinks....

Still a vote for the button logo though.

 

Ian.

[The Johnster]

11 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

 

I would say it’s the other way round!

 

Hornby (and to a lesser extent Bachmann) are very good at releasing identically livered locos year after year and then wonder why they don’t sell - whiteness their King Arthur’s in Olive which have ALL carried exactly the same post 1936 style.

 

Both are past masters in releasing locos and stock in the precise livery that I don't want...

[The Johnster]

2 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

The mediators of this process are the retailers. They are the customers of the manufacturing businesses, and what they order in sufficient quantity from the manufacturer's proposed products listings is what is manufactured, and thus ends up on sale to us, the end users.

 

There is a weakness in this process. Many retailers will naturally select what is ordered on the basis of 'what sold', and since only what is stocked can be sold, their opinion of what is most wanted by their customers is - inevitably - most often going to be confirmed. (To this day I make a point of buying anything of GWR origin required for a project or whatever, privately second hand: specifically to remove 'votes' for GWR at retail. Of course it was 'popular' in model form; more of it was available to folk who wanted RTR models.)

 

You may well be on to something here, 34.  Computerised reordering systems which log the number of items through the till and automatically re-order from the distributor would work in exactly that way, and probably the only time a human would intervene in the process is if a customer had specifically asked him to..

[tomparryharry]

Hmm, I'm not exactly sure about that, old chap. Pallets of baked beans & sausage is one thing, but something like a model? Oh dear! When the retailer will only have X number of a model, the order person will only order as much stock as they need to retain a profit, such that they can order more models. .... " I say! we've got 10,000 large prairies in black! Should we reduce it for next week?" A computerised  system will tell you what you've sold, but that won't necessarily translate into direct orders from Hornby. 

 

He He. I can just imagine the scenario... Right! We've got a container load of large prairies for Newport Road, Cardiff...  "But! They had a container last week....! That's what the computer says, and you can't argue with the computer....!"

 

Now look what you've started.....

[The Johnster]

23 hours ago, ndg910 said:

I’m with you on the GWR livery. Bachmann traditionally do that livery first and then eventually Shirtbutton and then Great Western. The 64xx is an unusual animal in that only the first few(10 I think) ever legitimately wore Great Western. I’m happy to wait. Same with the large Prairies the choices are in my view a bit late in the GWR era for me. Am sure next year or 2021 there will be some variety with liveries to suit me. 
 

im quite capable of making the changes but why should I.

 

3 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

Hmm, I'm not exactly sure about that, old chap. Pallets of baked beans & sausage is one thing, but something like a model? Oh dear! When the retailer will only have X number of a model, the order person will only order as much stock as they need to retain a profit, such that they can order more models. .... " I say! we've got 10,000 large prairies in black! Should we reduce it for next week?" A computerised  system will tell you what you've sold, but that won't necessarily translate into direct orders from Hornby. 

 

He He. I can just imagine the scenario... Right! We've got a container load of large prairies for Newport Road, Cardiff...  "But! They had a container last week....! That's what the computer says, and you can't argue with the computer....!"

 

Now look what you've started.....

Baccy have also ignored the later series 64xx the squared off corner between the bunker side and rear cab sheet, which makes the otherwise simple conversion to 74xx much more difficult than it would be otherwise.  It probably isn’t deliberately intended to annoy me but it does a bit. 

 

Not as much as their persistent refusal to provide any pannier so far without a top feed, which needs serious butchery to achieve.  That annoys me quite a lot...

 

As for surplus 5101s in Newport Road, work with me, Ian, I’m trying to create a situation of discounted oversupply for you, mate!

[Star-rider]

On 15/10/2019 at 20:49, Steamport Southport said:

Maybe because of forty years or so experience they know which ones sell and which ones are left in the warehouse to end up in the bargain bin.

 

Just a thought....

 

 

 

Jason

 

I wouldn't argue with the basics of your point, but I do wonder if it is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

Whilst some like me have a specefic period in mind I think a greater number just want a 64XX (or whatever). If the GWR is produced first the market absorbs them and then the second batch with a Sirtbutton or Great Western" does not shift so well as those who just wanted the model in any livery are now out of the game.

 

Look at Hornby's recent Collett bow-enders - Released in the Shirtbutton first, to the best of my knowledge they flew of the shelves. It would be interesting to know if those of us that bought them bought a lesser number of the following releases.

 

I'd always assumed that the GWR fixation was down to a "living memory" thing, probaly in the '80 modellers had mermories that they wanted to recreate and as age starts to claim us all this may well be less so now.

 

Pete.

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, Star-rider said:

 

I'd always assumed that the GWR fixation was down to a "living memory" thing, probaly in the '80 modellers had mermories that they wanted to recreate and as age starts to claim us all this may well be less so now.

 

Pete.

My earliest memory is of BR early emblem with red & cream coaches but I want the GWR in the 1930s!

Edited October 17, 2019 by melmerby

[Steamport Southport]

My memories are mostly of BR blue 25 KV electrics, DMUs and ex LMS third rail EMUs. 

 

That's why I mostly model late 1950s/early 1960s BR LMR/WR based somewhere on the English/Welsh border with a bit of Cambrian thrown in. I blame what was available RTR when I was young. Manors, 43XXs, Collett Goods, Halls, Castles, Prairies, Panniers, Jubilees, Royal Scots, Black Fives, Jinties, BR 4MTs, etc.

 

As well as trips to my localish heritage railways where I could see all those locomotives in real life. Usually the same locomotives that my models were for some reason....  

 

 

 

Jason

[TheSignalEngineer]

32 minutes ago, melmerby said:

My earliest memory is of BR early emblem with red & cream coaches but I want the GWR in the 1930s!

There was also quite a bit of era overlap. 

My earliest railway memory is of sounding the whistle on a Jubilee at New Street sometime around my second birthday. I can vividly remember the heat of the fire as I was lifted onto the footplate by the driver, who just happened to be married to my Great Aunt. At that time there were mainly black engines there, but BR green was starting to appear. I also remember catching a train at Corfe Castle during our holidays in 1953 and the coaches still being in Southern railway green livery. In 1961 I travelled on a return excursion from Windermere Lakeside to Birmingham in an LNER Buffet Car which looked more like a 1930s film set then in 1963 I travelled in a Gresley coach from Taunton to Birmingham still resplendent in LNER guise inside right down to LNER carpet in the First Class. A couple of weeks ago I was looking at a picture I took in 1967 at Plymouth. Through the coach window can be seen an LMS mirror, although the coach was actually delivered just after nationalisation, 

[adb968008]

On 15/10/2019 at 18:17, Budgie said:

 

Why can't the speaker be put below the chimney?

Weight...

 

Steam locomotives lack weight, and the UK doesnt like traction tyres or tender drive. Removing weight from the metal block of the chassis reduces traction of the locomotive. Theres not much space under a loco body as it is.

The tender, by comparison is an empty block of space, perfect for the decoder.

[David Stannard]

On 16 October 2019 at 06:06, Star-rider said:

 

This frustrates me as well. I quite fancied the Bachmann 64XX which I think has had two releases now in GWR livery both of which I've shyed away from as I'm focused "sometime in the '30s."

 

I don't think they even realise they are missing a sale.

 

Many people will have got over this doing thier own paint job but personally I don't have the skill or time.

 

I am certainly with you on this one, it frustrates me immensely how no one has bothered to bring out any of the Collett era Panniers in pre war condition. The inclusion of topfeeds on models is fine for anything from 1941 onwards, sadly though that only covers the last seven years of their service in GWR ownership. I bit the bullet and backdated my Baccy model but I would have much preferred spending my time on other projects, I still have two 8750’s that I need to backdate including the only low cab member of the class 8700. 

Edited October 18, 2019 by David Stannard

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On ‎15‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 18:17, Budgie said:

Why can't the speaker be put below the chimney?

There's a  further problem beyond the available volume and weight considerations. Really the 'port' by which the output of the transducer leaves the enclosure wants to be at least the same cross sectional area as that of the transducer. A relatively small chimney opening is far from ideal, a well perforated or even totally removed tender floor much the better plan.

[The Johnster]

3 hours ago, David Stannard said:

 

I am certainly with you on this one, it frustrates me immensely how no one has bothered to bring out any of the Collett era Panniers in pre war condition. The inclusion of topfeeds on models is fine for anything from 1941 onwards, sadly though that only covers the last seven years of their service in GWR ownership. I bit the bullet and backdated my Baccy model but I would have much preferred spending my time on other projects, I still have two 8750’s that I need to backdate including the only low cab member of the class 8700. 

8700 was an ordinary member of the 57xx class, wasn't she?  You may be confusing her with the original 5400 which the 54xx class (and consequent 64xx and 74xx) was developed from.  This loco was a rebuild of a 2021, which was later scrapped and replaced with a brand new 5400 to standard 54xx specification and appearance 2 years later.  She had 5'2" driving wheels and a low roof cab, a unique loco that I've never seen modelled, probably due to it's short working life in this form.

 

We are splitting hairs here as the only difference between 57xx and 8750 is the cab and bunker; the GW regarded them as different classes because of the differences in weight, which were minor and not enough to affect Route Availability.  Bachmann have released both 57xx and 8750s in the prewar pre-1934 Egyptian Serif livery; not sure about shirtbuttons but I'm fairly certain I remember a Replica 57xx in shirtbutton.  Hornby have released their 2721 in this livery as well, but you are right in general; prewar liveries seem to be avoided despite the popularity of the period.

 

Nice conversion to later 64xx without topfeed as built, though.  I've recently done this job on a 57xx, removing the top feed casing and the pipes which run along the tank tops and down the sides just ahead of the cab, and disappear into the plumbing.  The cab has to lose the lip on the leading edge of the roof and the radius joint between the backsheet and bunker side on your model as well, and you seem to have made a seamless job of this!  

 

Topfeedless boilers were repaired and put into storage at Swindon to be put on to the next loco needing one that they would fit, in this case any 54/64/74xx, as overhauls of locos were quicker than of boilers and the locos needed to be in traffic earning money and not blocking workshop bays, so boilers were swapped freely between locos of any class that they would fit.  From a modelling perspective, this means that topfeedless boilers could appear on locos that had previously had top feeds and vice versa.  So a post 1941 built loco might well have a topfeedless boiler after a later overhaul, and a top feed one after a later still overhaul, and vice versa.  It is very difficult to establish which boilers were fitted to which locos at any given time and it best to work from photos if possible.  

 

Bachmann have IMHO missed a trick with their panniers in not providing the top feed casing and delivery pipes as separate fittings, either removable or as retrofit item in the box.  It would increase the retail price, but not by much, and would enable any member of a class to be correctly represented at any time of it's service history.  

Edited October 18, 2019 by The Johnster