APT Resurrection?

[HonestTom]

I think a lot of these models sell not because they're useful to the serious modeller, but because people like them. Are there really enough people modelling the ECML in pre-Grouping days to justify a Stirling Single? But it sold out. How many people model Huntley & Palmer's biscuit factory? But the Peckett in that livery sold out and looks to sell out again, even while other Pecketts languish on the shelves. Similarly, I think the selling points for the APT-P are nostalgia, novelty and looks rather than operational usefulness. The big sales drawback as I see it would be that it's a complete train, but then again, how many people can really justify the APT-E?

[atom3624]

I would almost think to the contrary.

 

An enthusiast modeller would probably have a specific time period / era and region to model, so may well avoid 100%, whereas your 'normal, run-of-the-mill' enthusiast who 'loves trains' would find it fascinating to the extent of 'must get that one'.

 

Al.

[woodenhead]

2 minutes ago, HonestTom said:

I think a lot of these models sell not because they're useful to the serious modeller, but because people like them. Are there really enough people modelling the ECML in pre-Grouping days to justify a Stirling Single? But it sold out. How many people model Huntley & Palmer's biscuit factory? But the Peckett in that livery sold out and looks to sell out again, even while other Pecketts languish on the shelves. Similarly, I think the selling points for the APT-P are nostalgia, novelty and looks rather than operational usefulness. The big sales drawback as I see it would be that it's a complete train, but then again, how many people can really justify the APT-E?

I don't think there is an issue with an APT being produced per se - it is the length and cost that is the issue.

 

If someone produces some of an APT there will be those who say it isn't enough, if you produce the whole thing it's too much then you get back to where Dave was with lots of options and no clear strategy.

 

If you're going to do an APT in these days of high expectations it needs to be the full APT, it needs lights & sound and probably should tilt (in OO anyway).  From a risk perspective it is a big one to undertake and so far only Dave was brave/foolhardy enough to attempt it.

[Joseph_Pestell]

17 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

I don't think there is an issue with an APT being produced per se - it is the length and cost that is the issue.

 

If someone produces some of an APT there will be those who say it isn't enough, if you produce the whole thing it's too much then you get back to where Dave was with lots of options and no clear strategy.

 

If you're going to do an APT in these days of high expectations it needs to be the full APT, it needs lights & sound and probably should tilt (in OO anyway).  From a risk perspective it is a big one to undertake and so far only Dave was brave/foolhardy enough to attempt it.

 

All the longer fixed-formation trains suffer this problem to some extent. The cannier manufacturers e.g. Kato have got round it with a base pack plus one or more additional packs for those that can run/showcase the full train. It would be interesting to know how many of the add-on sets they sell.

[njee20]

1 hour ago, atom3624 said:

I would almost think to the contrary.

 

An enthusiast modeller would probably have a specific time period / era and region to model, so may well avoid 100%, whereas your 'normal, run-of-the-mill' enthusiast who 'loves trains' would find it fascinating to the extent of 'must get that one'.

That's exactly what he said?

[atom3624]

I've lost the plot then!!

 

Flicking to the cricket was quite a distraction!!

 

Al.

[black and decker boy]

On 16/06/2019 at 13:37, Crewlisle said:

With the demise of DJModels Ltd and its crowdfunding scheme for an 00 gauge APT, could this help to bring Hornby's 1980s APT back to production?  The APT was scanned at Crewe Heritage Centre last summer so I would think any discrepancy in the scan and production of usable CADs would be complete.  In DJM's last newsletter at the end of March this year, a number of discrepancies had been rectified and everything appeared to be progressing well towards tooling.  On the 7th May I received this reply from Dave to my query about progress:

 

Although its proceeding quite slowly, i would hope something tangible would be ready for production later this year. Production and shipping should take 4 months so i would think we could have something before Chinese New Year 2020, if not before then.

 

Would it be commercially viable to buy the progress so far off the liquidators and get the DJM selected Chinese manufacturers to manufacure it?

 

 

From the DJM end thread, it’s reported that only 2 cars of the APT were in ‘finished CAD’ form.

 

His promise that tooling was imminent was the same hot air as many of his other projects. He simply didn’t have the cash to move things like CAD along let alone commission tooling.

 

we also know from his postings that the take up for the APT wasn’t at the necessary levels and ultimately isn’t viable at £1000 each (assuming anyone else can do it so cheaply).

 

id suggest that prospects of a new APT model will now fade away just like DJM.

[Crewlisle]

Naturally there is a mixture of positive and negative comments to my original post; unfortunately most appear to be negative.  Yes, there were quite a number of variations to choose from the DJModels APT;  I chose the 5 car version to fit my existing Hornby APT cassette on 'Crewlisle'.   It did run as a test train of 5 cars as I have seen a photo.

The two comments I do disagree with is that it would be too expensive and was only running for a short period of time 36 years ago.  The example I quote to refute these arguments is the Midland Blue Pullman which first ran 59 years ago from 1960 until 1966 when the WCML electrification from Euston to Manchester/Liverpool was completed.  Bachmann introduced their 6 car model in 2014 and I paid just under £200 with a rrp of £270 (I think) for the first run which quickly sold out.  It was so popular that they did a re-run a few years later.

An 00 gauge 5 car APT-P might be worth considering with modern motors, DCC onboard, lights and similar carriage connections to the Blue Pullman (plus of course the tilt mechanism).

 

[No Decorum]

2 minutes ago, Crewlisle said:

Naturally there is a mixture of positive and negative comments to my original post; unfortunately most appear to be negative.  Yes, there were quite a number of variations to choose from the DJModels APT;  I chose the 5 car version to fit my existing Hornby APT cassette on 'Crewlisle'.   It did run as a test train of 5 cars as I have seen a photo.

The two comments I do disagree with is that it would be too expensive and was only running for a short period of time 36 years ago.  The example I quote to refute these arguments is the Midland Blue Pullman which first ran 59 years ago from 1960 until 1966 when the WCML electrification from Euston to Manchester/Liverpool was completed.  Bachmann introduced their 6 car model in 2014 and I paid just under £200 with a rrp of £270 (I think) for the first run which quickly sold out.  It was so popular that they did a re-run a few years later.

An 00 gauge 5 car APT-P might be worth considering with modern motors, DCC onboard, lights and similar carriage connections to the Blue Pullman (plus of course the tilt mechanism).

 

The tilt mechanism of the APT-E is quite sophisticated. If I recall correctly, for the APT-P Hornby came up with the idea of the ends of the cars being supported on a piece of vertical plastic, resting on the bottom of another, V-shaped, piece of plastic on the bogie. As the car turned, the vertical plastic rode up the slope of the V, producing the tilt. Ingenious, brilliantly simple and inexpensive.

[GWR-fan]

On a whim I chose to run an extended length Hornby APT comprising ten cars overall with two end cars, two powered "driving" cars and six stock coaches.  The ten car train did look impressive when running and tilting but I had no intention of rebuilding the cars to look prototypical.  Even buying the three sets purchased at a relatively inexpensive price my outlay was around $750.00.  It was less expensive overall to purchase sets rather than individual cars.   I am able to choose a full yellow cab or a black outline cab and have a spare (third) powered car for the amount spent.  The proposed DJM full length APT was expensive,  however, if you so the maths,  to purchase enough models to run a 14 car Hornby stock production APT then the DJM price was not outrageously expensive.

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

7 hours ago, GWR-fan said:

 the DJM price was not outrageously expensive.

 

... just outrageously non-existent, so price is moot

[black and decker boy]

12 hours ago, Crewlisle said:

....  Bachmann introduced their 6 car model in 2014 and I paid just under £200 with a rrp of £270 (I think) for the first run which quickly sold out.  It was so popular that they did a re-run a few years later.

An 00 gauge 5 car APT-P might be worth considering with modern motors, DCC onboard, lights and similar carriage connections to the Blue Pullman (plus of course the tilt mechanism).

 

That was then, current pricing would be double that. Second hand the 00 BP is fetching over £400.

 

even the current n gauge version is retailing at over £350 new.

 

A small run of new, high spec APT isn’t going to be £200 and it’s just not going to fly as a mainstream catalogue item.

[nightstar.train]

I’ve no doubt that an APT-P would sell, but the real question is how many and at what cost. The reason railroad models are so cheap is 1) the tooling is less complex and 2) Hornby have either long since paid for it, or plan on using it for many thousands of models, so the tooling cost per model is low or 0. Unlike limited edition high spec steamers (Stirling single, Caley 812 etc) that have a very high tooling cost per model. 

 

It’s oft quoted around rmweb that it costs in the region of £100,000 for the tooling for a small tank engine and £150,000+ for a large tender engine, and maybe £50,000 for a coach. So let’s say the power unit for the APT will be equivalent to a large tender engine, given the need for fiddly things like pantographs and the tilting mechanism. Then 4 different coaches. Given the need for them to have articulated tilting bogies I’d add another 20% on and say £60,000 per. So you’re looking at fixed tooling costs of £390,000. That’s before an production and assembly costs. If you can only sell 500 sets then you’re starting at a cost of £780 before any production costs, let alone profit. DJMs cost of £1000 for a 5 car set doesn’t seem so unrealistic. In fact it might well have been too cheap! 

I model the current scene, in fact the APT-P was withdrawn whilst I was still in nappies. And I’d love a model of one. But not at £1000+. 

 

[JSpencer]

On 18/06/2019 at 23:22, black and decker boy said:

From the DJM end thread, it’s reported that only 2 cars of the APT were in ‘finished CAD’ form.

 

His promise that tooling was imminent was the same hot air as many of his other projects. He simply didn’t have the cash to move things like CAD along let alone commission tooling.

 

we also know from his postings that the take up for the APT wasn’t at the necessary levels and ultimately isn’t viable at £1000 each (assuming anyone else can do it so cheaply).

 

id suggest that prospects of a new APT model will now fade away just like DJM.

 

I was perfectly interested in the APT despite the thing never running in the south east at any point in history. I just was not at all keen on the hoops one had to jump through to get one.

Now if Hornby did it via their normal means, my pre-order would be in tomorrow.

Edited June 27, 2019 by JSpencer

[atom3624]

It's probably one of the most important 'train sets' on B.R. in recent history.

 

Let's face it, it's failure's given us more than 40 years' worth of HST / IC125 !!

 

I would love a model of the prototype gas turbine one - not paying the money of the current rendition - I'd be in the garage for 3 years, possibly allowed in the house by the wife for birthdays and Christmas!!

 

Al.

[TravisM]

I hope Hornby are reading this thread as they could possibly re-release the ATP-P as it wasn’t a bad model for the time.  I’m sure if Hornby still have the tooling and prepared to “tweak” the model to today’s standards, I’m sure they’d have a sure winner.

[dibber25]

The major manufacturers - particularly Bachmann - have told us on many occasions that multiple units are expensive to produce. Yes, we've had the Blue Pullman, despite assurances that Bachmann would never do it. One swallow does not make a summer. We had the old Hornby APT in the days when a crude mechanical tilt system would pass muster. Nowadays, it won't. Today's models have sophisticated electronics, including directional lighting and DCC capability. Multiple units need through-wiring, which means couplings which are complex and expensive - and these would need to tilt, too. (Coupling and uncoupling Rapido's APT-E requires nerves of steel, with its articulated, tilting, plug-socket connectors) There are various DMUs promised, but only the single cars seem to make it into production relatively easily. No one is rushing to get units of 2+cars into production. Could it be that difficulties with costs, complexity and ultimately pricing, are behind some of these delays? Against that background, even a half-length APT is a non-starter, whether it be to modern standards or merely a resurrection (if that were even possible) of the old Hornby model. (CJL)

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, dibber25 said:

 Today's models have sophisticated electronics, including directional lighting and DCC capability. Multiple units need through-wiring, which means couplings which are complex and expensive

Want, not need.

 

Hornby has just made a 1940s DMU for £136 RRP... A Terrier for £89 retail, and a Bulleid coach for £47.

 

they could made a 2 car DMU / EMU for a similar amount if they kept the detail the same, the electronics at bay and the coupling as standard hook/loop.

 

My little one would love a modern image EMU, and she doesn't care for wanting through wiring, sophisticated electronics and a fancy coupling. An accurate render with a good paint job will do.

 

When we were little, we didn't care either.

 

we are in a loop of being dazzled by the up-sell, that I dont think we as consumers can afford.

 

So if we “must” have it, its because manufacturers dont see a future in the hobby, not just because they see it as too expensive, they aim products at the established market, not a  current one.

 

In reality they also see that we don't want the detail .. how many people are running 8/12 car 350/450’s, I suspect very few,  most pribably have only 1, yet have no problem with a dozen colourful class 47’s...

 

If the DMU/EMU was accurate with a decent paint job, but spec’d down to a price, chances are a few people may be more willing to stock up.

 

I know Ive a big stash of Bachmann DMUs (101/105/108/DLW) when they were cheap, and they don't have fancy couplings and delicate electronics but theres nothing wrong with the detail. 

 

Railroad 66’s show colour and price can trump detail and electronics, and Hornbys already said its volume they need to increase.

 

Edited June 27, 2019 by adb968008

[acko22]

Hi all,

 

Honestly while I would to see one in N gauge in my case, regardless of gauge to make it honestly viable for any manufacturer you are talking an update of 1000+ models where all the tooling is guaranteed to be utilised to be financially.

When you consider the costs for tooling these days which is where the single biggest individual cost is no manufacturer is going to do a cheap version it would be a case of all singing and dancing or nothing at all, if you start messing making 2 versions (DCC with lights etc and a basic or "railroad" version) the likely reality is the price would pretty much be the same when you take the logistic of doing the differences would suck up the few pennies you save from not having a few extra wires and lights.

 

The best bet to for this model does rest at a properly managed crowdfunded project where nothing is spent until the minimum order quantity has been meet and the money is there. With recent events around DJM I don't think that makes it a palatable option for anyone who may use that business model and I doubt the likes of Hornby would use a crowdfunding method.

[JSpencer]

5 hours ago, acko22 said:

The best bet to for this model does rest at a properly managed crowdfunded project where nothing is spent until the minimum order quantity has been meet and the money is there. With recent events around DJM I don't think that makes it a palatable option for anyone who may use that business model and I doubt the likes of Hornby would use a crowdfunding method.

 

Or a Cavalex style. Get all the Cad work done in house - like they are doing with the 91 and Mk4s - then see if there is a viable set of orders to produce it.

[Fireline]

9 hours ago, jools1959 said:

I hope Hornby are reading this thread as they could possibly re-release the ATP-P as it wasn’t a bad model for the time.  I’m sure if Hornby still have the tooling and prepared to “tweak” the model to today’s standards, I’m sure they’d have a sure winner.

 

Didn't SK already confirm that Hornby DON'T have the tooling? 

[Vistisen]

5 minutes ago, Fireline said:

 

Didn't SK already confirm that Hornby DON'T have the tooling? 

Yes, Many times. But as this whole DJM farce had shown, realism not reality is our primary focus.

[GWR-fan]

Some years ago while Hornby was still at Margate, SK made a comment that the APT tooling did exist at the time however, it was stored in such a way that OH&S regulations made it unsafe to retrieve.  Apparently in the move away from Margate there was a rumour that the tooling had suffered a mishap rendering it useless.  An APT will not be coming from Hornby, even a design clever model.  If Hornby was to release a Railroad version there would be howls of criticism from the masses and if they bit the bullet and won the lottery and released a full fat version people would criticise them for not investing the money in something more "practical" and desirable.  It would be a no win situation for them.

 

I am more than happy with the three sets that I purchased to enable a ten car train (even if not prototypical) and I can choose a yellow or black outline model and have a spare power car.  To make a 14 car train I would need to purchase two more sets (or source individual coaches) and that is not going to happen given the current pricing.

[Andy W]

12 hours ago, JSpencer said:

 

I was perfectly interested in the APT despite the thing never running in the south east at any point in history. I just was not at all keen on the hoops one had to jump through to get one.

Now if Hornby did it via their normal means, my pre-order would be in tomorrow.

APT never ran in the south east at any point in history? Are you sure? Euston is in the south-east of England by any possible definition, and the several journeys I had on APT-P between Euston and Preston were all my imagination? There was a regular Friday afternoon departure which effectively acted as a relief. I even have the boarding card for one of these journeys. You can't even say that APT never saw the 3rd rail network, because Euston had and still has 3rd rail electrification into some platforms.

[melmoth]

This is precisely the sort of instructive pedantry I want with my morning coffee