APT Resurrection?

['CHARD]

10 minutes ago, GWR-fan said:

  Dave was spruiking   

 

That's obviously where the rot set in!  

[phil-b259]

19 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

They already have two more - their Pendolino, and from a more distant era the Eurostar

 

A developed Eurostar, representing the short North of London sets, would make more sense for them - not least because they might be able to spin off an HO version under the Jouef banner (the SNCF used some Eurostars on domestic services - as did GNER)

 

Exactly how do you ‘spin off’ two different scale models from a single tooling.

 

As has been explained many times over the major costs incurred in producing model railway items are making the tooling and the actual assembly of the models. Doing something in two scales doubles the costs with no garuntee of making double the profits.

 

The Eurostar (373) also suffers from a restricted shepherd of operation and being a long fixed formation setup. Moreover all the ex NOL sets have now been scrapped and major inroads have already been made into the ‘3 capitals’ fleet. 

 

If you wanted to produce a Eurostar in HO then surely the obvious thing to do is go for the new Siemens class 374 Valero trains - the tooling for which can also be used to make other members of the Valero family as used in German and on various cross border flows to neighbouring countries.

 

The Pendalino on the other hand has been used more widely (even if that is just the WCML) plus there are no plans to replace the fleet. While it might not be the latest thing on rails, it’s still a more viable candidate to be reintroduced than a newly tooled 373 Eurostar or a APT.

 

[Ravenser]

2 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Exactly how do you ‘spin off’ two different scale models from a single tooling.

 

As has been explained many times over the major costs incurred in producing model railway items are making the tooling and the actual assembly of the models. Doing something in two scales doubles the costs with no garuntee of making double the profits.

 

The Eurostar (373) also suffers from a restricted shepherd of operation and being a long fixed formation setup. Moreover all the ex NOL sets have now been scrapped and major inroads have already been made into the ‘3 capitals’ fleet. 

 

If you wanted to produce a Eurostar in HO then surely the obvious thing to do is go for the new Siemens class 374 Valero trains - the tooling for which can also be used to make other members of the Valero family as used in German and on various cross border flows to neighbouring countries.

 

The Pendalino on the other hand has been used more widely (even if that is just the WCML) plus there are no plans to replace the fleet. While it might not be the latest thing on rails, it’s still a more viable candidate to be reintroduced than a newly tooled 373 Eurostar or a APT.

 

 

You can develop the HO model and OO model in parallel, sharing the research and modifying the CAD. I didn't mean to imply that there wouldn't be 2 sets of toolings , merely that Eurostars have been done in the past for both French HO and British OO markets - they might be marginal as stand-alone projects in one scale , but Hornby have the structure and brands to bring a model to market in both France and Britain,  sharing the development costs between the projects and thereby improving the economics against a single-scale stand-alone model

 

The Valero might well be a more tempting target for a Jouef HO model though

 

No new tooling is needed to re-introduce the Pendolino - you just need to re-run it from the existing perfectly adequete tooling

 

I still don't quite understand the logic that a 14 car prototype train that never entered service and ran a few trial trips between Preston and Glasgow is a better commercial proposition than an iconic unit that put in 25+ years squadron service on a major route with high public profile - plus periods on the ECML and some parts of the SNCF network.  The NOL sets may now have gone - but they offer a prototypical means of shortening the length of an otherwise rather long train, hence my suggestion that if you want a "full-length Eurostar" you go for an NOL set

[HonestTom]

I'd say it has the same kind of appeal as the APT-E. I think that, for all Dave Jones didn't succeed, crowdfunding would be the way to go, and I'd say someone like Rapido would be the lads to do it.

[woodenhead]

4 minutes ago, HonestTom said:

I'd say it has the same kind of appeal as the APT-E. I think that, for all Dave Jones didn't succeed, crowdfunding would be the way to go, and I'd say someone like Rapido would be the lads to do it.

Not so sure, the APT-E like the Blue Pullman is something that could be modelled in it's entirety and fit on most railways (overhang on the APT permitting).

 

The APT-P is a different beast and for that reason becomes a more difficult proposition for companies even Rapido - look at the HST Prototype - again it was a fixed length but issues over Brexit and then Oxford bringing out Mark 3s pushed the model which would have been backed by Locomotion onto the back burner.

 

Dapol are doing the HST Prototype in N but they have the mechs and could get away with their Mark 3s meaning they just need to tool the power car bodies.

[Allegheny1600]

Hi Guys,

Just for information, the ICE Velaro has already been done in H0 by Fleischmann/Roco: http://www.fleischmann-ho.nl/e/news/news-2018/201809-e.html

Note: These are two parts of the same overall company (like Hornby owning Jouef and Lima/Rivarossi).

As much as I would like them to, they haven't yet done the Eurostar livery so presumably, they don't think such a re-livery would sell that well?

 

Also, apart from the early Jouef/Hornby 'toy' effort, no-one has yet done a decent model of an original Eurostar in H0 scale. Tellingly, Kato has done quality models of both these trains in N scale.

So if the much larger Continental market considers these trains to be not worthwhile, what chance the UK market?

[JDW]

As much as I like tha APT, I can't see anyone rushing to try and bring one to market at the moment.  I'd have liked to have seen the DJM one succeed, and yes, I can imagine someone like Rapido or Accurascale making a good job of it but it's too big to be realistic for most people, both in terms of physical length and cost.  On top of that, look at the number of different options people were asking for, 5 coaches, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, it makes it very complicated.  If it were going to go again, I suspect something more like the Kato Eurostar would be the way to go - a basic set of, say, 6 or 8 vehicles, plus a further set of the remaining trailers. Probably with options for a set with the black windscreen surround, and one without.  DJM's long list of potential options and the arguments for and against seemed to just complicate what was already a complicated project.

 

I can't see Hornby's ever being re-released, even if the tools still exist, as it is just too far out of date to be well received - it'd be like trying to re-release the Hymek or original version of the HST (old power cars and short Mk3's).  Besides the nostalgia for it (real and model), there's not a lot that would sell it in the modern market, and no amount of upgrading the motor etc would change that.  OK, it looks like an APT, it tilts around corners, but it's much too far off what we'd expect there days, and the cost would likely push it out of the basic train set market too.

[Ravenser]

18 minutes ago, Allegheny1600 said:

Hi Guys,

Just for information, the ICE Velaro has already been done in H0 by Fleischmann/Roco: http://www.fleischmann-ho.nl/e/news/news-2018/201809-e.html

Note: These are two parts of the same overall company (like Hornby owning Jouef and Lima/Rivarossi).

As much as I would like them to, they haven't yet done the Eurostar livery so presumably, they don't think such a re-livery would sell that well?

 

Also, apart from the early Jouef/Hornby 'toy' effort, no-one has yet done a decent model of an original Eurostar in H0 scale. Tellingly, Kato has done quality models of both these trains in N scale.

So if the much larger Continental market considers these trains to be not worthwhile, what chance the UK market?

 

The "much larger Continental market" is in fact an agglomeration of individual markets. The French market is smaller than the British market - the German-speaking market and German based manufacturers have - obviously - no interest in Eurostars

 

I'm not sure of the logic here:

 

"Eurostars have been done in N gauge. Clearly an HO model wouldn't be viable" - though HO is a bigger market than N

 

"A "toylike" Eurostar was done in HO in the 90s. This proves that nobody wants to do a Eurostar in HO because it wouldn't be viable"

 

Perhaps more relevant is that the N gauge model came from a Japanese manufacturer, not a Germanic one. It's very tempting to suggest that a model was commercially viable - but the German manufacturers had their blinkers on and weren't interesting

 

However we come back to the same issue - if model Eurostars aren't commercially viable , why on earth should a 14 car prototype that never went into revenue service and ran just a few months of trials on one line be a "must" in RTR?

 

The APT-E was only 5 car I think - and therefore much more manageable on a layout - and it roamed quite widely on trials. Hence it falls into the same niche as Lion or the prototype Deltic, or a dynometer car or inspection saloon: rare , exotic , but with a surprisingly wide range , so lots of people can run one as a "rare visitor".  

 

APT-P is a very different proposition

Edited June 17, 2019 by Ravenser

[Pete the Elaner]

42 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

The APT-E was only 5 car I think - and therefore much more manageable on a layout - and it roamed quite widely on trials. Hence it falls into the same niche as Lion or the prototype Deltic, or a dynometer car or inspection saloon: rare , exotic , but with a surprisingly wide range , so lots of people can run one as a "rare visitor".  

 

APT-P is a very different proposition

APT-E was 4 car, although it ran as 3 for many of its early trials.

"Roamed widely on trials" is arguable. It ran on a short stretch of the WR main line, some of the ECML & some of the MML, the important bit being that they were all major routes. Many layouts are branch lines or secondary main lines, so any unusual trains are usually there because the owner/operator simply likes them. The same would be true of the APT-P.

 

I completely agree that the P train is a different matter. I am sure that since Hornby's 1980s offering, manufacturers have decided that making another is not worth the risk.

[MrTea]

3 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

There are some things both for & against reproducing a new model of the APT.

 

It is an iconic model so not only WCML modellers will want one in the same way that Duchesses sell really well, being bought by modellers who do not own anything resembling a WCML layout.

 

James May's Trouble in Model Britain mentioned that most of Hornby's older tooling was destroyed by the company's previous management, with the notable exception of the tunnel which had worn beyond its useful lifetime. Whether the P-train's tooling is damaged or discarded is irrelevant.

Any potential manufacturer would therefore need to be looking at new tooling.

 

You could sell the APT-P in several different variations: 5 car, 6 car, 8 car & extra carriages. but having to market several different ones slightly offsets the cost saving of buying it this way.

The Blue Pullman is probably a better comparison than IEPs as mentioned earlier.

Mk4s are not a good comparison because these can be sold as short sets or individual items. Class 90s have run with Mk4 sets before.

 

Anyone considering re-tooling such a product needs to be confident they can sell enough to make a decent return. A few people like us speculating on a forum is just not enough.

Manufacturers may even have already considered & rejected it....possibly even Hornby have been planning it & been holding back with their announcement just like they did the Terrier?

 

 

 

I think there’s a lot of sense in Pete’s post above. 

 

An APT-P makes sense in a lot of ways because those of us approaching middle-age with some disposable income remember the excitement when it came out. The Hornby one hasn’t been available for years and the InterCity livery as applied to the APT is pretty distinctive (I’d use the word ‘iconic’ if it hadn’t been done to death in the last few years). 

 

The question is: would enough of us buy one (and would we buy one for our kids?)?

 

Then there’s the question of spec and price. A few years ago you’d never have expected Rapido’s high fidelity APT-E and yet it sold out on first run. 

 

I reckon the dilemma would be whether to make it super super detail or go for something more affordable like they’ve just done with the Class 66 reissues?

 

If the Railroad HST sells well in the autumn then I think that might give us the answer. 

 

However, if I was 8 now and mad on trains I’d either want 2999 Lady of Legend or one of the new Stadler Hybrid EMUs for Greater Anglia - it’s streamlined and the noise it makes is amazing: http://transportdesigned.com/5-worlds-epic-sounding-trains/

 

Imagine one of those with TTS sound for less than £200! What’s not to like? 

[RedgateModels]

12 minutes ago, MrTea said:

The question is: would enough of us buy one (and would we buy one for our kids?)?

 

Then there’s the question of spec and price. A few years ago you’d never have expected Rapido’s high fidelity APT-E and yet it sold out on first run. 

 

Personally I have my childhood Hornby APT-P, so no, as with the DJM version I would not buy a new version. I'm happy chopping up Hornby coaches to make intermediates

 

APT-E was another matter, ran very close to home on the Old Dalby Test Track (as was) and had not been previously released. I would have bought a lower fidelity version from an different supplier though ......

[Steamport Southport]

If people are really thinking that an APT wouldn't sell then I reckon they are misguided. It's probably one of the most iconic trains ever. Far more important than most others. I also don't believe they even know about the train as it often ran about in shorter sets when on trials. Usually 6 cars. Saw it quite often in the early 1980s.

 

It's even had documentaries about it on channels such as BBC Four. How many other trains have? Not many.

 

Would there be a sixty page thread in the DJ Models section if nobody wanted one? I think not.

 

 

 

Jason

[brushman47544]

How many people buy multiple units because they are fans of them, rather than to help populate layouts to make them more accurate with what they remember? And how many of those model electrics as opposed to diesel or steam?

 

I fit neatly into the overall accuracy group, going for those units - diesel - I remember and ran on the SR and WR. So the likes of 304s, 310s and ER EMUs are of no interest for a layout. But younger family members who have grown up knowing a "Unit" railway, its different. And as adb has said, many types such as Electrostars now feature pretty well network-wide, so I would agree that longer term sales potential points towards modern Units being produced rather than what we older generation prefer.

[Gibbo675]

Hi Folks,

 

I would suggest that should any manufacturer rise to the challenge of the APT-P then it may be best presented as a seven car set comprising one power car, two driving trailers, two guards trailers and two intermediate coaches, it would then be a suitable model in itself for the very reasons as noted by Jason above. It would not be too much trouble for separate power cars and intermediate trailers to be made available to boost the set to its fullest extent.

 

As far as I can see the difference between first and second class is seating plan and a yellow stripe, the restaurant cars have only the seating plan and the blanked out windows of which there was a "shadow" of a window frame in any case.

 

This leaves three body styles and four bogies to be tooled up for, painting masks should be a relatively cheap part of the production process for first class and black cab window surrounds etc.

 

Just think of the weird and wonderful test trains you could run if the couplings were made compatible with prototype HST power cars and various test coaches.

 

Gibbo.

[RedgateModels]

18 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

 the restaurant cars have only the seating plan and the blanked out windows of which there was a "shadow" of a window frame in any case.

 

Not strictly true, some were plated over flush, some were opaque with a little clear circle so staff could see out.

 

 

Better informed members than me will be able to confirm that the underframe grilles etc were different to the "standard" intermediate cars too. Depends on the level of fidelity/compromise that any manufacturer chooses to follow I guess

Edited June 17, 2019 by RedgateModels

[Gibbo675]

15 minutes ago, RedgateModels said:

 

Not strictly true, some were plated over flush, some were opaque with a little clear circle so staff could see out.

 

 

Better informed members than me will be able to confirm that the underframe grilles etc were different to the "standard" intermediate cars too. Depends on the level of fidelity/compromise that any manufacturer chooses to follow I guess

Hi Redgate,

 

Excellent picture find there, I had a quick look for the other plated over types that were built but then I didn't look that hard.

 

There is a possibility that the underframe grills could be accommodated by way of alternate sectioned plugs in the moulds rather than a complete re-tool, the same may be possible for the restaurant cars blanked out windows dependant upon subject modelled.

 

Unfortunately these days, I feel that most of the small details that so many of the "box opening types" get shirty about these days are only seen with a magnifying glass in a any case.

 

That said this whole discussion is pretty much academic with regard the big picture, ie. real life * !

 

Gibbo.

 

* Real life is much more important than toy trains.

[RedgateModels]

On 17/06/2019 at 15:24, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Redgate,

 

Excellent picture find there, I had a quick look for the other plated over types that were built but then I didn't look that hard.

 

 

Well I have built my own, so I did know about the photo in advance 😉

 

 

Edited July 29, 2022 by RedgateModels

[Gibbo675]

12 minutes ago, RedgateModels said:

 

Well I have built my own, so I did know about the photo in advance

 

 

Hi Redgate,

 

I hope mine turns out that well when I get around to it.

 

Would you be able to let me know what paint colours you used for the livery that it carries.

 

Gibbo.

[RedgateModels]

I had to mix my own to match up with the (wrong) Hornby shades, just hope the light grey is still viable when it comes to doing the next one  The Dark grey was SR roof grey I think, but it was a bit too dark. I'll mix my own next time.

[njee20]

5 hours ago, Ravenser said:

I still don't quite understand the logic that a 14 car prototype train that never entered service and ran a few trial trips between Preston and Glasgow is a better commercial proposition than an iconic unit that put in 25+ years squadron service on a major route with high public profile - plus periods on the ECML and some parts of the SNCF network.  The NOL sets may now have gone - but they offer a prototypical means of shortening the length of an otherwise rather long train, hence my suggestion that if you want a "full-length Eurostar" you go for an NOL set

Evidently, since we had the exact same conversation a couple of weeks ago! Even a north London 373 is 2+14, it’s hardly the sort of thing people could easily accommodate, even if shorter than the ‘full’ 2+16 sets, and as we discussed previously it’s just not iconic in the way the APT is. I’ve no idea why you have this bizarre idea that models people have actually seen or travelled on are somehow more desirable. 

 

If you want one though then you need to model N. Here’s one I made earlier...

 

 

The cost savings of sharing development between 2 scales is minimal. This has been discussed before, and I can’t see in a million years that a new 373 in both scales would be a sensible release. 

 

The APT was a symbol for the future, even if it’s was ultimately a failure, it’s iconic status will always give it a certain mystique and desirability, possibly because of the fact it was a failure! That said, I also can’t see another manufacturer offering one in a hurry!

 

 

Edited June 17, 2019 by njee20

[159220]

On 16/06/2019 at 19:31, adb968008 said:

 

A railroad Electrostar...

 

 

Please no! I certainly do not want a railroad one. You’ll be a fool if you cater to a falsehood cheap end of the market!

 

I want an electrostar which captures the prototype truthfully, with intrinsic detail of both the underframe modules and the subtle details which separate a model from an item which has statement appeal.

 

There is a pitfall/range of details between the subclasses which would likely make tooling a rather expensive investment, only rewarded in sales if top notch!

 

Hornby could do a cracking Electrostar, I just don’t think other than 5 RMWebbers anyone else would want one though... 

 

Please can we stop racing down to the railroad cheap end of the market.

[adb968008]

45 minutes ago, 159220 said:

 

Please no! I certainly do not want a railroad one. You’ll be a fool if you cater to a falsehood cheap end of the market!

 

I want an electrostar which captures the prototype truthfully, with intrinsic detail of both the underframe modules and the subtle details which separate a model from an item which has statement appeal.

 

There is a pitfall/range of details between the subclasses which would likely make tooling a rather expensive investment, only rewarded in sales if top notch!

 

Hornby could do a cracking Electrostar, I just don’t think other than 5 RMWebbers anyone else would want one though... 

 

Please can we stop racing down to the railroad cheap end of the market.

Modellers can always upgrade.

younger modellers unfortunately cannot down grade.

 

A 4 car super dooper EMU isn’t going to come less than £400, out of range of many, and even fewer will buy two.

 

A budget one, with excellent paint job, at the quality of the mk2f’s about to be produced would put an rrp in the £220-250 range.. meaning sub £200 on the shelf.

 

That would shake a few more takers...after all no ones complaining of £70 class 66’s.

 

Edited June 17, 2019 by adb968008

[phil-b259]

12 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

You can develop the HO model and OO model in parallel, sharing the research and modifying the CAD. I didn't mean to imply that there wouldn't be 2 sets of toolings , merely that Eurostars have been done in the past for both French HO and British OO markets - they might be marginal as stand-alone projects in one scale , but Hornby have the structure and brands to bring a model to market in both France and Britain,  sharing the development costs between the projects and thereby improving the economics against a single-scale stand-alone model

 

The Valero might well be a more tempting target for a Jouef HO model though

 

No new tooling is needed to re-introduce the Pendolino - you just need to re-run it from the existing perfectly adequete tooling

 

I still don't quite understand the logic that a 14 car prototype train that never entered service and ran a few trial trips between Preston and Glasgow is a better commercial proposition than an iconic unit that put in 25+ years squadron service on a major route with high public profile - plus periods on the ECML and some parts of the SNCF network.  The NOL sets may now have gone - but they offer a prototypical means of shortening the length of an otherwise rather long train, hence my suggestion that if you want a "full-length Eurostar" you go for an NOL set

 

While it’s true that the inital ‘train set’ Eurostar was developed in both HO and OO, that was by two totally separate companies working independently (Hornby didn’t acquire the Jouef brand unitll 2004). Yes Hornby did initially arrange to procure the HO example for a couple of years to test the water before launching their own OO offering - but it’s obvious that neither company had much interest in it from a sales potential as they both studious ignored producing the extra intermediate cars. Compare this to how Hornby produced extra 1st, standard and catering Mk3s / Mk4s to expand those train sets while Jouef produced extra 1st, standard and catering cars for their TGV sets).

 

Over a decade later I see little sign that the market in either country has changed. In the UK the Eurostar’s were quickly superceed in ‘star billing’ terms by the tilting Pendalino - which has itself recently been kicked off the top spot by the Hitachi IET.

 

Yes the NOL Eurostar sets were a little shorter - but this produces no cost saving as you still got the full range of vehicle designs in both the NOL and 3 capitals sets. Also given the NOL were restricted to use certain platforms at ECML stations (including Kings Cross) they are actually still pretty long - how many modellers have space to run a full HST, 225 or Pendalio rake?

 

One should also not forget that anything ‘Euro’ tends not to ‘resonate’ with most British people - be it currency, parlements, passports or even trains, we have this lingering attitude of not wanting to bother with forgiven muck as it were.

 

True a NOL Eurostar is more useful when it comes to modelling railway operations than an APT - but the British have a sort spot for plucky underdogs (as manifested by the desire for all sorts of ‘oddball’ diesel locomotives) and the APT pulls at the heart strings in a way a 373 Eurostar will never do.

 

That said, the costs of tooling up a APT (even just the shorterned test sets) plus its status as a neche item means it’s unlikely to be on either of the big manufacturers radar - particularly Hornby who now have an reasonably well stocked portfolio of glamorous InterCity motive power in both the main and railroad ranges. Bachmann took an awful lot of prodding to produce a Midland Pullman and that was only a 6 coach train - which retailed for a very high price.

[Pete the Elaner]

17 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

If people are really thinking that an APT wouldn't sell then I reckon they are misguided. It's probably one of the most iconic trains ever. Far more important than most others. I also don't believe they even know about the train as it often ran about in shorter sets when on trials. Usually 6 cars. Saw it quite often in the early 1980s.

 

If a manufacturer believed it would make a suitable return for them, they would have made an updated one by now.

[njee20]

7 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

they are actually still pretty long - how many modellers have space to run a full HST, 225 or Pendalio rake?

Even a NOL one is at least 50% longer than a full 2+8 HST.