HonestTom Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, cctransuk said: Knowing myself to be included in your characterisation of "Usual Suspects", I would merely point out that I am, as usual, merely banging the drum for actual modelling. I cannot accept the premise that the availability of RTR 'never wazzers' can in any way promote the cause of acquiring modelling skills in order to produce accurate models. The stumbling block nowadays seems to be that the newer generation of modellers wants it all NOW, and is not prepared to spend time building up a skill set. Producing generic coaches will only encourage this 'near enough' attitude - which is bound, in the long run, to lead to the 'dumbing-down' of the hobby. Now that is not disagreeing for the sake of it; it is a genuine concern for the hobby. Regards, John Isherwood. (Usual Suspect) You seem to be contradicting yourself here. You're arguing that "the newer generation of modellers wants it all NOW," i.e. that they want perfect prototypical ready-to-run models straight out of the box. Yet you're also arguing that the Genesis coaches will lead to the dumbing down of the hobby because they aren't prototypical ready-to-run models. Also, can we have a definition of where the "newer generation" of modellers begins? Edited October 10, 2019 by HonestTom Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLWP Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 1 hour ago, wombatofludham said: Which frankly is why I cannot understand why so many are sneering at this announcement. I think you are missing the point - I'm not sneering at anything. Good luck to Hattons, these look like they will sell very well I'm just bemused by the amount of positivity for them being posted on this forum. If they were not-really-BR-standards but painted in BR livery, the'd be torn to pieces here. As they are for railways people don't know much about, they seem to be great I'm just finding that a bit odd And as I'm not the target market, it doesn't matter a damn* Richard *Actually, it's worse than that - I model in 009 so have no credibility left anyway 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Saunders Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 6 minutes ago, cctransuk said: Knowing myself to be included in your characterisation of "Usual Suspects", I would merely point out that I am, as usual, merely banging the drum for actual modelling. I cannot accept the premise that the availability of RTR 'never wazzers' can in any way promote the cause of acquiring modelling skills in order to produce accurate models. The stumbling block nowadays seems to be that the newer generation of modellers wants it all NOW, and is not prepared to spend time building up a skill set. Producing generic coaches will only encourage this 'near enough' attitude - which is bound, in the long run, to lead to the 'dumbing-down' of the hobby. Now that is not disagreeing for the sake of it; it is a genuine concern for the hobby. Regards, John Isherwood. (Usual Suspect) John On several subjects I disagree with you but on this I totally agree that why make up something when you can invest the same amount of money and make it correct in the first place! Why spoil the ship for a ha'p'orth of tar! Mark Saunders 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr chapman Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 Just for a little context guys... Until the last decade or so the only coaches available in N were either MK1 or generic 57' "mainline" or "suburban". Generic pullman's are still the only way forward if you don't want a MK1 vehicle. Generic four wheelers are quite often still used. Things have dramatically improved and you can now get a set of native coaches for each of the big four. Even two types of coaches! Wow! I do find it funny that the staggering array of rtr models either by commissioning or as part of a main range are often moaned about! You have a range of generic coaches here in all sorts of interesting and complicated livery options. For £30... With lighting... If anyone would like to ask for a quote from me or one of the other kit builders for hire for a "proper" model feel free! I dare say though a Roxey 6 wheeler built and lined out, with pickups and lighting, will be a tad more pricey... 5 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aire Head Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 17 minutes ago, cctransuk said: The stumbling block nowadays seems to be that the newer generation of modellers wants it all NOW, and is not prepared to spend time building up a skill set. I bet the guys who were the old boys to your generation of modellers said exactly the same thing about you.... 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HonestTom Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, RLWP said: I think you are missing the point - I'm not sneering at anything. Good luck to Hattons, these look like they will sell very well I'm just bemused by the amount of positivity for them being posted on this forum. If they were not-really-BR-standards but painted in BR livery, the'd be torn to pieces here. As they are for railways people don't know much about, they seem to be great I'm just finding that a bit odd And as I'm not the target market, it doesn't matter a damn* Richard *Actually, it's worse than that - I model in 009 so have no credibility left anyway I don't think it's so much that they're for railways people don't know about, but that they're for railways that don't have anything at all, and that are unlikely to get anything specific ready-to-run in the near future. Edited October 10, 2019 by HonestTom 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Saunders Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 1 minute ago, Mr chapman said: Just for a little context guys... Until the last decade or so the only coaches available in N were either MK1 or generic 57' "mainline" or "suburban". Generic pullman's are still the only way forward if you don't want a MK1 vehicle. Generic four wheelers are quite often still used. Things have dramatically improved and you can now get a set of native coaches for each of the big four. Even two types of coaches! Wow! I do find it funny that the staggering array of rtr models either by commissioning or as part of a main range are often moaned about! You have a range of generic coaches here in all sorts of interesting and complicated livery options. For £30... With lighting... If anyone would like to ask for a quote from me or one of the other kit builders for hire for a "proper" model feel free! I dare say though a Roxey 6 wheeler built and lined out, with pickups and lighting, will be a tad more pricey... Why not break the cycle of lookalike/fantasy when you can get it right first time for the same price! Mark Saunders Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLWP Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, HonestTom said: I don't think it's so much that they're for railways people don't know about, but that they're for railways that don't have anything at all, and that are unlikely to get anything ready-to-run in the near future. But 'anything' does not equal RTR . There is plenty of stuff for even pretty obscure railways, if that's what floats your boat. You're not going to take it out of a box and run it straight away though. And to be fair, I rarely take any modelling item out of a box and use it as is, which I guess confirms I'm not the target market for these And I'm now remembering (I think) Tebay, a 00 model on the LNWR featured in Railway Modeller in probably the early 70s. ISTR it had a slightly modified LNER B12 to represent an Experiment... Richard Edited October 10, 2019 by RLWP Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sem34090 Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said: You do use photoshop or a similar program to ridicule models where the splasher is half a millimetre too big or the chimney is too wide. Or there is no ashpan. Look through the Oxford Rail Dean Goods, Hattons 14XX and Hornby Terrier threads for evidence. I think this is unduly unfair on James, for the following reasons: The models that you mention are all purporting to be accurate models of real prototypes, and therefore it is understandable that points ought to be raised about the inaccuracy of such models - After all, better for a manufacturer to get it as close to correct as possible. These coaches are not purporting to be accurate models of real prototypes - For me, personally, they are absolutely perfect (As I say - I want some coaches cascaded to the Southern from a small, fictional, company) but I think they provide a reasonable enough approximation for the vast majority of people who have purchased RTR locos in pre grouping liveries. In the case of the Dean Goods, I have zero interest in the GWR and even I thought the model looked wrong before it was corrected! In the case of the Hornby Terrier, I have rather more interest. I wouldn't touch the A1 (the front end looks completely wrong to my eye), but I'm happy enough with my SR Green A1x despite my knowledge of some of its shortcomings. It was the cheaper, readily available, choice so I took it. As for making things? I have very limited time currently (Regardless of what people may think about A Levels and applying for university courses, those are my priorities currently. And yes I know all the arguments against a university education, and that we have a lot of intelligent people who entirely lack life experience and common sense in this country), and what modelling time I have is being spent actually building my layout. I have a few kits waiting to be built, but I am reluctant to buy any more just yet. Another major consideration for me is how expensive brass kits are compared with ready to run models. I enjoy building stock, I enjoy modelling generally (and don't classify the purchase of stock as modelling), but when there is a ready-to-run option, in the livery or condition I require it available at the same price (often a cheaper price) than the equivalent etched brass kit then I'm afraid the RTR wins hands down. Also, I still have yet to gain the experience I would like in building brass kits (scared stiff of messing up the tumblehome on my Roxey LBSCR Tri-Comp) so that's another reason why I don't wish to spend a small fortune buying more of them. Instead I scavenge about the second hand market, buying cheap bits when I can and doing bashes of Triang Clerestories. When these come out I will probably 3D Print some accurate Metropolitan, NLR and District bodyshells for the chassis (if I can). Edited October 10, 2019 by sem34090 9 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ryde-on-time Posted October 10, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 10, 2019 20 minutes ago, cctransuk said: ............... The stumbling block nowadays seems to be that the newer generation of modellers wants it all NOW, and is not prepared to spend time building up a skill set. Producing generic coaches will only encourage this 'near enough' attitude - which is bound, in the long run, to lead to the 'dumbing-down' of the hobby. Now that is not disagreeing for the sake of it; it is a genuine concern for the hobby. Regards, John Isherwood. (Usual Suspect) No, the main stumbling block for me is time. I do 2 jobs and have a family. What little modelling time I have I like to devote to building things I enjoy (and playing trains!). I have tried painting and lining coaches before, didn't enjoy it, and they looked awful. It seems you are suggesting that rather than buy the Hattons coaches (which I will), I should be compelled to carry on unhappily wasting time (& money) learning a skill I don't want? The time is better spent happily refining and using the skills I do have 4 6 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 7 minutes ago, sem34090 said: I think this is unduly unfair on James, for the following reasons: The models that you mention are all purporting to be accurate models of real prototypes, and therefore it is understandable that points ought to be raised about the inaccuracy of such models - After all, better for a manufacturer to get it as close to correct as possible. These coaches are not purporting to be accurate models of real prototypes - For me, personally, they are absolutely perfect (As I say - I want some coaches cascaded to the Southern from a small, fictional, company) but I think they provide a reasonable enough approximation for the vast majority of people who have purchased RTR locos in pre grouping liveries. In the case of the Dean Goods, I have zero interest in the GWR and even I thought the model looked wrong before it was corrected! In the case of the Hornby Terrier, I have rather more interest. I wouldn't touch the A1 (the front end looks completely wrong to my eye), but I'm happy enough with my SR Green A1x despite my knowledge of some of its shortcomings. It was the cheaper, readily available, choice so I took it. I miss Larry. That was quality abuse. No one gives grief like that these days. No one has those skills any more. What has the hobby come to? 1 15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post richarddavies Posted October 10, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted October 10, 2019 Hi Disclaimer: I'm MD of Hatton's I am really enjoying this thread. I think the reaction has been incredibly positive. I had expected it to cause a bit of shock - we realise this project is not to everyone's usual taste Some absolutely brilliant feedback on the designs arriving - very proud of the way our team are responding to it too We are huge fans of the "Prototypically literate" term coined by (I think) @Edwardian Looking forward to talking about this with some of you at GETS this weekend - I will be on the stand Saturday & Sunday Thanks to everyone for all their views. I think it's been received rather well Richard 38 3 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 11 minutes ago, HonestTom said: You seem to be contradicting yourself here. You're arguing that "the newer generation of modellers wants it all NOW," i.e. that they want perfect prototypical ready-to-run models straight out of the box. Yet you're also arguing that the Genesis coaches will lead to the dumbing down of the hobby because they aren't prototypical ready-to-run models. Also, can we have a definition of where the "newer generation" of modellers begins? No! You totally misinterpret what I said. I did not imply that the newer generation of modellers ".. want perfect prototypical ready-to-run models straight out of the box"; my clear statement was that they are prepared to accept an RTR 'never-wazzer' now, rather than work towards acquiring the skills to be able to produce accurate models in the future. No contradiction there! By 'newer generation of modellers', I indicate an emerging group who purport to espouse the pre-Grouping era but, unlike the established modellers of that period, are none too fussy about accurate representation. I believe the appeal to be principally the 'quaint' outlines and 'pretty' liveries of the stock. Nowt wrong with that, but if it principally involves opening RTR and RTP boxes, it doesn't tick my box for creative railway modelling. Moreover, when some of those proponents have publicised themselves as sticklers for precise accuracy in RTR locomotives, it ill behoves them to decry those who are less than enthusiastic about wholly generic RTR rolling stock. Regards, John Isherwood. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 16 minutes ago, Aire Head said: I bet the guys who were the old boys to your generation of modellers said exactly the same thing about you.... If they did, they were doing me a grave injustice. Lack of funds meant that I had no alternative but to produce dire, but ever improving, scratch and kit-built models. It's the only way if you want to become a skilled modeller - there's no escape from that fact. .... if, on the other hand, you just want to drive trains - so be it. Regards, John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Saunders Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 3 minutes ago, Ryde-on-time said: No, the main stumbling block for me is time. I do 2 jobs and have a family. What little modelling time I have I like to devote to building things I enjoy (and playing trains!). I have tried painting and lining coaches before, didn't enjoy it, and they looked awful. It seems you are suggesting that rather than buy the Hattons coaches (which I will), I should be compelled to carry on unhappily wasting time (& money) learning a skill I don't want? The time is better spent happily refining and using the skills I do have What is the problem with the correct coach in the wrong livery! Mark Saunders Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium boxbrownie Posted October 10, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 10, 2019 3 minutes ago, richarddavies said: Hi Disclaimer: I'm MD of Hatton's I am really enjoying this thread. I think the reaction has been incredibly positive. I had expected it to cause a bit of shock - we realise this project is not to everyone's usual taste I think it's been received rather well Richard That's one way to put it Keep it up Richard, I am sure the vast majority are going to be more than happy to have these running around their layouts 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Wickham Green Posted October 10, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted October 10, 2019 21 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said: What would be the last year that it would be reasonable to run these: i.e. when did the last 4-wheel and 6-wheel carriages operate in revenue-earning service the UK (not counting NPCCS). Just thinking that they would look rather nice in BR Crimson. Four-wheelers are still running ................... but not in crimson 2 1 16 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLWP Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 4 minutes ago, richarddavies said: Hi Disclaimer: I'm MD of Hatton's I am really enjoying this thread. I think the reaction has been incredibly positive. I had expected it to cause a bit of shock - we realise this project is not to everyone's usual taste Some absolutely brilliant feedback on the designs arriving - very proud of the way our team are responding to it too We are huge fans of the "Prototypically literate" term coined by (I think) @Edwardian Looking forward to talking about this with some of you at GETS this weekend - I will be on the stand Saturday & Sunday Thanks to everyone for all their views. I think it's been received rather well Richard Hi Richard, take the horizontal beading off the middle of the end panels, please. That makes them far more valuable for conversion Otherwise, well done on doing something different. Richard 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sem34090 Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 3 minutes ago, Wickham Green said: Four-wheelers are still running ................... but not in crimson 3 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlfaZagato Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 When the Pacers start appearing at heritage lines, we might see four-wheelers behind four-wheelers. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HonestTom Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 Just now, cctransuk said: No! You totally misinterpret what I said. I did not imply that the newer generation of modellers ".. want perfect prototypical ready-to-run models straight out of the box"; my clear statement was that they are prepared to accept an RTR 'never-wazzer' now, rather than work towards acquiring the skills to be able to produce accurate models in the future. No contradiction there! By 'newer generation of modellers', I indicate an emerging group who purport to espouse the pre-Grouping era but, unlike the established modellers of that period, are none too fussy about accurate representation. I believe the appeal to be principally the 'quaint' outlines and 'pretty' liveries of the stock. Nowt wrong with that, but if it principally involves opening RTR and RTP boxes, it doesn't tick my box for creative railway modelling. Moreover, when some of those proponents have publicised themselves as sticklers for precise accuracy in RTR locomotives, it ill behoves them to decry those who are less than enthusiastic about wholly generic RTR rolling stock. Regards, John Isherwood. This seems to be making the assumption that one can either have generic models or learn to make accurate ones. I don't see why a person can't do both. In fact, isn't that exactly what most modellers do? Start with something basic and take it from there? Certainly that's how I learned. At least this way, people have a starting point, something to run with their locomotives while they build something more accurate. If they don't want to build something more accurate, they probably wouldn't have done so before these coaches were announced anyway. As for the question of people being fine with generic coaches, but not locomotives, I don't see any hypocrisy there. I have an interest in the history of fashion, and on layout after layout I see figures dressed so wrongly for the period that they might as well be in fancy dress. I dare say a botanist or a geologist could take issue with the scenery on many if not most layouts. We all have our areas of interest. I'd rather have a layout that looks complete in accordance with mine than worry that I'm not living up to someone else's standards of modelling. 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ryde-on-time Posted October 10, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 10, 2019 14 minutes ago, Mark Saunders said: What is the problem with the correct coach in the wrong livery! Mark Saunders I agree with others who have probably put it far more eloquently - I would prefer a fictional coach which has the character of the age but which does not have features that are typical of one railway company, rather than a correct coach in an incorrect livery. A Met coach with round door tops in LMS livery would jar far more to me than the coaches Hattons are showing in LMS livery 10 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Nearholmer Posted October 10, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted October 10, 2019 Well, I’m not buying any yoghurt, or Brussels sprouts today. Awful things, can’t abide the taste, and they don’t agree with my insides. Now, let me tell you: what I like is a good slice of brown toast, with some butter and a bit of honey on it. Why young people today can’t be content with that, I really don’t understand. what with all this fast food ........ (This is the “what I’m not buying, and what other people ought to do” thread, isn’t it?) 4 22 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 17 hours ago, Martin S-C said: I agree. An earlier argument that the W&U coach would be "useless" unless you were modelling the T&KLR comes to mind. Such a coach model even priced at £100 would most likely have sold quite well, not just to the W&U modellers (even the post 1920s ones), but to collectors and freelancers. Freelance modelling is a bigger thing than many realise and some seem to have forgotten its existence altogether. The Hattons products are perfect for the fictional modeller. The Rapido LNER dynamometer coach was £125. That sold pretty well. The Dynamometer Car was used with hundreds of locomotives until the 1950s and travelled all over the country during the 1948 Locomotive Exchanges. It was also used during Mallards record run. You can also see it in the NRM. Of course it would sell. But I also believe that it wasn't exactly a financial success for those that commissioned it nor the manufacturer. If it was then they would be producing other models rather than cancelling them (Prototype HST for example). Now how many W&U carriages are you planning on selling? 100 maybe. Certainly not in the thousands needed for it to be financially viable. Jason 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Collier Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 53 minutes ago, cctransuk said: Knowing myself to be included in your characterisation of "Usual Suspects", I would merely point out that I am, as usual, merely banging the drum for actual modelling. I cannot accept the premise that the availability of RTR 'never wazzers' can in any way promote the cause of acquiring modelling skills in order to produce accurate models. The stumbling block nowadays seems to be that the newer generation of modellers wants it all NOW, and is not prepared to spend time building up a skill set. Producing generic coaches will only encourage this 'near enough' attitude - which is bound, in the long run, to lead to the 'dumbing-down' of the hobby. Now that is not disagreeing for the sake of it; it is a genuine concern for the hobby. First of all I am a modeller who scratch builds most of my pre grouping stock but am in the camp of who really cares if these coaches don't "promote the cause of acquiring modelling skills in order to produce accurate models". This hobby is many things to many people but those that actually want to 'model' are, I would guess, in the minority. What is wrong with wanting it now? This newer generation probably has other, better things to do than spend years honing modelling skills, skills which are of no interest to them, they just want to play trains. Why should these coaches lead to the dumbing down of the hobby? I can already hear those cottage industries thinking "what can I produce that 'modellers' will find useful to add to and enhance these RTR coaches. As dimensions have already been provided I bet etched overlays are being designed as we speak. See it as a positive as it may well bring more into the hobby and create more modelling opportunities that didn't exist a couple of days ago. The glass isn't always half empty, I'd rather build stuff myself but have no issue if a manufacturer wants to make more rolling stock available whether it be 100% accurate or generic, they don't fit in with my take on the hobby but so what? It means the hobby is still expanding as ranges increase which can surely only be good? 12 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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