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Hornby APT 2020

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On 09/01/2020 at 14:39, wasabi said:

Referring to Kato, my impression is that they have been looking at the sort of trains that Japanese tourists might encounter on visits here and buy as 'souvenir' purchases.  It will be interesting to see if a series develops.  I had also wondered whether Kato might one day acquire Peco as a way into the UK market, but a group which has two sets of track systems (not that they are incompatible) would perhaps cause confusion in the market?  That said, Peco's distribution network must have a lot of value and B----t has meant that there has never been a better time to snap up UK assets.

 

Unless or until Peco’s ownership changes, nothing is for sale. I can assure you that any such approaches are very firmly rebuffed.

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On 09/01/2020 at 09:35, JohnR said:

I think my wallet is now completely blown.

 

My 7 year old son (always been a massive fan of the APT) has now discovered the Hornby catalogue I bought. He also wants to add more Class 66's, and even the 50s in GBRf have intrigued him. He also wants a GWR HST set. And by set, I mean a full 2+8 set with all the coaches Hornby are listing now. 

 

Pray for me. 

 

We are happy for you!

 

The next step, in my experience, is wanting a layout that resembles Clapham Junction on steroids!!!

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13 hours ago, Dixie Dean said:

 

All I can say to Hornby is, why not take this opportunity to raise your game a little and really impress, with full lighting, the space for full sound front rear and power car(s) (using 3 or 4 chips), a servo operated pantograph, modelled in the prototypical manner (with a choice of both types - I, myself would prefer the BWHS version), and tilt similar to the APT-E.

 

You can do it!

Hornby will be making this to a price in order to satisfy as large a market as possible. Making it the best they can will put the price beyond what some they feel will be willing to pay.

This may mean a model is not as feature-rich & detailed as some of us would like, but Hornby are there to make as much money from pleasing their customers as possible. How they go about this is their decision.

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14 hours ago, Dagworth said:

I've got a Rapido APT-E but it's very buried in its box and inaccessible at the moment. I've never had cause to open it up and it's never yet been put on rails. Can anyone elaborate on how the Rapido tilt system works please?

 

Andi

From memory - it's a long time since I last ran mine - it is a mechanical system which operates on the articulated bogies with a kind of pendulum effect. The coupling of the cars is a complex and fear-inducing process, but once coupled, the electrical system (for lights/sound) through the cars connects up at the same time. The mechanical tilt has the effect of locking the cars together in their curved state, thus making derailment almost impossible because the shape of the whole unit is locked to the same shape as the curve of the track. It's a clever system but the disadvantage is complexity of coupling the cars together. (CJL)

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Would it be true to say that any sort of speed related tilt system would be just about impossible in OO?

 

I assume the Rapido APT tilts to the same degree no matter how fast it is going, is that correct?

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If you do unpack you APT-E and connect the  cars together, if you are able to, it is a good idea to keep them that way.  I keep mine in a clear plastic tube with grooves for rails mounted on wall brackets (I forget the name of the supplier).   I'll probably do the same for the Hornby APT.  Most 'special' trains which only get an occasional run are stored this way on the railway room wall.

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10 minutes ago, dibber25 said:

From memory - it's a long time since I last ran mine .

  14 hours ago, Dagworth said:

I've got a Rapido APT-E but it's very buried in its box and inaccessible at the moment. I've never had cause to open it up and it's never yet been put on rails. Can anyone elaborate on how the Rapido tilt system works please?

 

Without wishing to cause personal offence to either of the gentlemen quoted, do not these words make the adoption of a 'state of the art' articulation system un-necessary.  I think if Hornby can use the original system, it will suit 90+% of the potential purchasers.

Cheers from Oz,

Peter C. (who had an original APT sourced here and sold it back to the UK).

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1 hour ago, Pete the Elaner said:

Hornby will be making this to a price in order to satisfy as large a market as possible. Making it the best they can will put the price beyond what some they feel will be willing to pay.

This may mean a model is not as feature-rich & detailed as some of us would like, but Hornby are there to make as much money from pleasing their customers as possible. How they go about this is their decision.

 

Hornby opted for a plastic pantograph on the 87 and I suspect they are going to stick with it on the APT as well as the 91.

My main gripe is that as plastic is cheaper than metal - I was expecting spares would be made freely available but unfortunately not.

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5 minutes ago, letterspider said:

 

... plastic pantograph on the 87 ...  I was expecting spares would be made freely available but unfortunately not.

 

I just got one from customer services free of charge!  Why not send them an email with your address on.

 

Sadly although it looks great it can only sit on the roof folded down as it can't be posed.  So looks a lot better than the ones on the 92 but not much use.

Edited by Dixie Dean
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1 hour ago, Rob F said:

Would it be true to say that any sort of speed related tilt system would be just about impossible in OO?

 

I assume the Rapido APT tilts to the same degree no matter how fast it is going, is that correct?

I'm pretty certain the amount of tilt varies according to the sharpness of the curve. It certainly isn't affected by the speed. (CJL)

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The Rapido system looks to be a mechanical mix of the classic model railway tilt mech (basically bogies pivot with a bar pointing upwards that pushes an inverted groove fixed to the body) and there own addition, the pancake. A flat disc of plastic that tilts with the articulated bogies which is fixed to each body part of the coach.

 

The net result is not the front suddenly tilting full whack as soon as it hits a tight curve, but rather a gradual increase as more of the train enters it.

That said the Rapido system is a bit hard to join (probably needs a little white gear grease on the pancakes), but then you also have those electrical connectors for the models excellent internal lighting and on board DCC system (one chip controlling both motors in both power cars plus the speakers in each car too).

 

Hornby probably won't and probably does not need to go to this sophistication. The power car is in the middle for a start, but you may need some simple electrical connection for the end lighting.

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2 hours ago, 45568 said:

  14 hours ago, Dagworth said:

I've got a Rapido APT-E but it's very buried in its box and inaccessible at the moment. I've never had cause to open it up and it's never yet been put on rails. Can anyone elaborate on how the Rapido tilt system works please?

 

Without wishing to cause personal offence to either of the gentlemen quoted, do not these words make the adoption of a 'state of the art' articulation system un-necessary.  I think if Hornby can use the original system, it will suit 90+% of the potential purchasers.

Cheers from Oz,

Peter C. (who had an original APT sourced here and sold it back to the UK).

The only reason my APT-E hasn't run yet is that the layout hasn't been set up since the RICOH outing where my 14 car Hornby set was in action 

 

Andi

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2 hours ago, Dixie Dean said:

 

I just got one from customer services free of charge!  Why not send them an email with your address on.

 

Sadly although it looks great it can only sit on the roof folded down as it can't be posed.  So looks a lot better than the ones on the 92 but not much use.

 

Still waiting for a reply from my email last week!

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6 minutes ago, letterspider said:

Still waiting for a reply from my email last week!

 

I got an almost immediate reply

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17 hours ago, Dixie Dean said:

All I can say to Hornby is, why not take this opportunity to raise your game a little and really impress, with full lighting, the space for full sound front rear and power car(s) (using 3 or 4 chips), a servo operated pantograph, modelled in the prototypical manner (with a choice of both types - I, myself would prefer the BWHS version), and tilt similar to the APT-E.

 

You can do it!

Because they would lose at least 25%* of their market because I, like most other DC users. wouldnt buy it.

 

It might surprise you but most people are not interested in all the latest bells and whistles and just because something can be done doesnt mean it should be done.

 

* I am not sure of the percentage of DC users compared to DCC users, then of course we split the DCC users into basic, sound, all singing/all dancing, and it would really only be that last lot interested.

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3 hours ago, Rob F said:

Would it be true to say that any sort of speed related tilt system would be just about impossible in OO?

 

I'm sure that if you throw enough money at something it would be possible. I'm imagining some sort of electronic actuators operated by an on-board computer that takes into account the curvature of the train, speed and phase of the moon.

 

Adding this would multiple the cost of the set many times, but if you really want it, I'm sure Hornby could oblige for a price. The rest of us will just enjoy the tilting train as it comes, no matter if it's not perfect. Let's face it, most APT's will run without overhead and there's only one prototypical example of that.

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2 minutes ago, royaloak said:

Because they would lose at least 25%* of their market because I, like most other DC users. wouldnt buy it.

 

It might surprise you but most people are not interested in all the latest bells and whistles and just because something can be done doesn't mean it should be done.

 

I can understand your point of view, but I would at least like the space for chips and speakers, and full lighting is the minimum for most people these days I suspect.  I strongly suspect there is no hope for a servo operated pantograph, but at least I'd like on which can be posed.

 

If you don't ask you don't get.

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I appreciate that as a DC dinosaur (apparently a dying breed according to some) there will be certain things on new models I wont be using (servo pans on the 90 etc) and accept that, but to take a high value model and then add so much 'stuff' to it that you end up with a market of about 200 people who want it, but only 5 can afford it is a certain way of going out of business.

 

New Hornby seem to be listening to ALL their intended customers so they can get maximum return on virtually all their products which has to be a good thing for them and us.

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Is full lighting (front rear) too much to ask.  And the ability to add the other stuff if you want it.  We're way behind HO in all of this.   What I don't want is no space for speakers and chips, rubbish wired in chips, and poor pantographs like the 86 and 92 and some others had.

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7 minutes ago, Dixie Dean said:

Is full lighting (front rear) too much to ask.  And the ability to add the other stuff if you want it.  We're way behind HO in all of this.   What I don't want is no space for speakers and chips, rubbish wired in chips, and poor pantographs like the 86 and 92 and some others had.

Full (switchable) end lighting should be a minimum (I will concede that one ;)), but interior lighting not so much because unless its dark you cant really see the interior lights on trains anyway unless they are unprototypically bright to the extent they could be used to torture people.

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2 hours ago, JSpencer said:

The power car is in the middle for a start, but you may need some simple electrical connection for the end lighting.

I’d imagine to make the couplings simple they would do something similar to the HST’s. Means it would require 3 decoders but I think it’s a better alternative to an awkward electrical coupling system. 

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Just now, Hilux5972 said:

I’d imagine to make the couplings simple they would do something similar to the HST’s. Means it would require 3 decoders but I think it’s a better alternative to an awkward electrical coupling system. 

 

My old Hornby 7 car APT has 3 chips (version 3.5) but works great with the Heljan 26/27/33 chassis modification

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32 minutes ago, Dixie Dean said:

 

My old Hornby 7 car APT has 3 chips (version 3.5) but works great with the Heljan 26/27/33 chassis modification

Mine only has a single decoder in the NDM, it only ever runs with one end leading so the headlights are permanently on in that car, and tail lights permanently on the rear.

It does have additional pick ups on the second NDM and a pacer coupling between the two for power.

 

Andi

 

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1 hour ago, royaloak said:

Full (switchable) end lighting should be a minimum (I will concede that one ;)), but interior lighting not so much because unless its dark you cant really see the interior lights on trains anyway unless they are unprototypically bright to the extent they could be used to torture people.

& as much as I like it, interior lights are way too bright in Rapido's APT-E.

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