Graphite Treatment to Rails.

[Philou]

One thought regarding graphite, take care when using it near parts that are physically close and electrically charged opposite to each other (thinking insulfrog frogs here) as graphite (being carbon) is conductive and will bridge that gap (does Cadbury's Snack still exist?).

 

Same problem with electrolube as some old locos that my brother and I have inherited are electrically dead (should be live I suppose) as they have had so much electrolube squirted into them and then stored that the insulated tyres and wheels, and carbon brushes, are no longer insulated :(.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

[F-UnitMad]

2 hours ago, Philou said:

One thought regarding graphite, take care when using it near parts that are physically close and electrically charged opposite to each other (thinking insulfrog frogs here)

Agree albeit I think you mean electrofrogs? I was using a graphite stick on my layout at a show the once when a chunk wedged in the gap between rail & frog; the chunk soon started to glow & smoke, with a rather nasty smell too!! Without thinking I went to brush it out with my finger, which I promptly burned!!

 

Re that spray can of copper grease, my thoughts to use it would be to spray it on a cloth to wipe on the rails. Be interesting to see how/if it works.

[stewartingram]

My thought also with the spray, as it is stated to be highly inflammable. What if you get arcing off the wheels and pickups?

It sounds like a variant of the copper grease I use on all my bolts on the car, making them much easier to undo next time. Been using the stuff for 50 years. I buy it in a can the size of a smaller (domestic) pint tin, much cheaper that way.

 

Stewart

 

(ps - and I never go near WD40 - biggest bodger's tool going!)

Edited August 1, 2020 by stewartingram

[Philou]

@F-UnitMad I was thinking more of the insulfrogs as there is only a small bit of plastic frog separating the two parts of the frog rails. I think the unifrogs are designed differently. However, interesting to hear about the problem with the electrofrog. Care would need to be taken between any open switch blade and the adjoining rail too so as not to create an unwanted open circuit.

 

However, it seems from reading through, that there are benefits nonetheless from applying graphite judiciously.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[The Johnster]

It's a learning curve, and what I've learned so far is that the best way to apply it to the railhead is, as F-Unit says, to wipe it on with a soft cloth, suspect nylon is best as anything else is more likely to leave fibres where you don't want them.  The stuff dries to a semi-gloss thin watered down looking coppery finish, and I've sprayed one of the fiddle yard roads with it along with an insulfrog turnout.  It works, doesn't short out the plain track or the insulfrog, but affects the appearance, so cloth application will be used on the scenic area, and future spraying operations will be done with masking tape in the 4 foot and protection for the insulfrogs just in case.  Or I could paint it on to the railhead for complete control over where it's going.

 

Philou's point about shorting out on locos is a valid one; I gave Cyclops' mech a squirt of it, and have killed Cyclops!  Tomorrow's job is dismantling her and cleaning it all off, which should restore running.  

[The Johnster]

5 hours ago, stewartingram said:

 

(ps - and I never go near WD40 - biggest bodger's tool going!)

I don't use this stuff either, not on my bike and certainly not on the layout!!!  I'm an inveterate bodger but even I have my standards...

[Graham Radish]

Graphite conducts electricity, but its a very poor conductor and will probably make things worse

[TheQ]

29 minutes ago, Graham Radish said:

Graphite conducts electricity, but its a very poor conductor and will probably make things worse

Experience show this not to be true.. It works.

[TheQ]

13 hours ago, stewartingram said:

 

 

Stewart

 

(ps - and I never go near WD40 - biggest bodger's tool going!)

In a classic case of stupidity the owners of the WD brand have extended their range using the WD40 branding, to include lubricants degreasers etc

 

Original wd 40 is extremely good at what it's designed for, a water dispersant,  I always keep a can,  parking outside, near the north sea, ignition components can get very damp with a gale blowing under the bonnet.  A quick coat spray of WD and it can make a big difference.. 

[Graham Radish]

On 02/08/2020 at 07:01, TheQ said:

Experience show this not to be true.. It works.

Putting a lower conducting material between the rails and wheels can work better? please explain, if anything the ultimate material to put on your track would be a drop of De-Oxit

[Phil Traxson]

Doesn't matter what the theories are, it's just a fact that in practice it works. whether it should or not is something else.

 

[Buhar]

There are already many minute non-conductive bits of stuff between rail and tyre.  Either the graphite on a cleanish rail prevents build up of crud or it gets into the gaps between bits of said crud and improves conductivity.  I do like it when theory isn't borne out in practice.

 

Alan   

[Dagworth]

 

58 minutes ago, Graham Radish said:

Putting a lower conducting material between the rails and wheels can work better? please explain, if anything the ultimate material to put on your track would be a drop of De-Oxit

So if graphite is such a relatively poor conductor according to you then our motors shouldn't work either as there are two pretty big lumps either side of the commutator.

 

Andi

[TheQ]

2 hours ago, Graham Radish said:

Putting a lower conducting material between the rails and wheels can work better? please explain, if anything the ultimate material to put on your track would be a drop of De-Oxit

Graphite is a better conductor than the insulating film of crud and corrosion that builds up on tracks,  and wheels.  Unless brand new or impossibly perfectly cleaned, track and wheels build up dirt. 

 

[kevinlms]

3 hours ago, Phil Traxson said:

Doesn't matter what the theories are, it's just a fact that in practice it works. whether it should or not is something else.

 

AKA, quit while you're ahead!

[jcm@gwr]

Theories are fine, until the next scientific discovery or breakthrough.

How many years did scientists claim that, according to the size of their

wings and the weight of their bodies, it was impossible for bumble bees

to be able to fly!

Luckily, no-one told the bees, and they carried on as usual!

[Oldddudders]

11 hours ago, Graham Radish said:

Putting a lower conducting material between the rails and wheels can work better? please explain, 

You ain't heard nothing. Just wait until someone swears by a drop of Wahl Clipper Oil on the railhead - and some serious modellers do!  

[kevinlms]

5 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

You ain't heard nothing. Just wait until someone swears by a drop of Wahl Clipper Oil on the railhead - and some serious modellers do!  

An old thread, but appears to work, as long as plastic wheels aren't used.

 

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/27013.aspx

[The Johnster]

I can't explain why it works, but it does, for me anyway.  My best guess, and it is no more than that, is that the graphite fills microscopic holes and depressions in the railhead, and when it is picked up on the wheel tread does the same to that, meaning that the surfaces effectively become smoother and contact each other better, thus improving the pick up.  

 

But there is a downside, traction is reduced.  I allocated my Limbach 94xx to one of the coal duties last week, a loco stuffed as full of ballast as I can manage, and it failed to pull the loaded train, 12 wagons and a van.  This loco has traditionally slipped a little with this job, but with the rails graphited it is overloaded and cannot manage.  Tondu sent out 6762 to assist, and the locos double headed the train satisfactorily, but 8448 was taken off the job at Tondu and 5642 substituted.  I am not expecting the new Bachmann to which 8448's number plates will be transferred to manage any better; the chassis will be fundamentally the same as the 0-6-0PT Bachmanns that cannot haul the train now.  

 

No problem, plenty of other work for a 94xx at Cwmdimbath!

Edited August 9, 2020 by The Johnster

[Michael Edge]

No adhesion problems on Wentworth Junction and the trains are a lot longer than that - they are all banked in the down direction (up the hill on the visible front part of the layout) but up trains have to get up the same hill out of the fiddle yard on their own. The longest is 60 empty coal wagons with one 2-8-0 or electric loco, the whole layout is graphited, no track cleaning done for years.

[The Johnster]

Should have mentioned that my loaded minerals are fully loaded with real coal, and I have not used the usual dodge of foam blocks with coal on the top.  The train, 12 wagons or not, is pretty heavy and, due to space restrictions, encounters a short length of no.3 setrack curve at the entrance to the fy.  I like the feeling of weight and momentum that full wagons give, and it's appropriate to my area, where, on the Abergwynfi branch, 20 wagon empties were hauled by 42xx.  I like to be able to induce a bit of slipping with rough driving; it's realistic, and 8448's failure was treated in a prototypical way; and an assistant loco was sent for.   

 

Back at Tondu shed, some investigation will take place into the failure, as the loco was capable of working the Cwmdimbath colliery trip prior to the hand of god applying graphite to the rail; the conclusion will no doubt be that a greasy rail was to blame but the shed foreman will be reluctant to use the loco on this job in future, and 56xx or 42xx will be provided, or the load lessened if 8448 is the only loco available.

[NIK]

2 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Should have mentioned that my loaded minerals are fully loaded with real coal, and I have not used the usual dodge of foam blocks with coal on the top.  The train, 12 wagons or not, is pretty heavy and, due to space restrictions, encounters a short length of no.3 setrack curve at the entrance to the fy.  I like the feeling of weight and momentum that full wagons give, and it's appropriate to my area, where, on the Abergwynfi branch, 20 wagon empties were hauled by 42xx.  I like to be able to induce a bit of slipping with rough driving; it's realistic, and 8448's failure was treated in a prototypical way; and an assistant loco was sent for.   

 

Back at Tondu shed, some investigation will take place into the failure, as the loco was capable of working the Cwmdimbath colliery trip prior to the hand of god applying graphite to the rail; the conclusion will no doubt be that a greasy rail was to blame but the shed foreman will be reluctant to use the loco on this job in future, and 56xx or 42xx will be provided, or the load lessened if 8448 is the only loco available.

Hi,

 

If adhesion is near the limit then just a small reduction in friction between wheels and rail can result in slipping.

 

 

Regards

 

Nick

[Michael Edge]

47 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Should have mentioned that my loaded minerals are fully loaded with real coal, and I have not used the usual dodge of foam blocks with coal on the top.  The train, 12 wagons or not, is pretty heavy and, due to space restrictions, encounters a short length of no.3 setrack curve at the entrance to the fy.  I like the feeling of weight and momentum that full wagons give, and it's appropriate to my area, where, on the Abergwynfi branch, 20 wagon empties were hauled by 42xx.  I like to be able to induce a bit of slipping with rough driving; it's realistic, and 8448's failure was treated in a prototypical way; and an assistant loco was sent for.   

 

Back at Tondu shed, some investigation will take place into the failure, as the loco was capable of working the Cwmdimbath colliery trip prior to the hand of god applying graphite to the rail; the conclusion will no doubt be that a greasy rail was to blame but the shed foreman will be reluctant to use the loco on this job in future, and 56xx or 42xx will be provided, or the load lessened if 8448 is the only loco available.

My loaded trains are loaded as well, not with coal (I use Woodland Scenics cinder ballast) but they are heavy - and  the gradient is 1 in 40. Any of my O4s or WD 2-8-0s can manage the 60 wagon empty train without slipping. My main point is that the graphite on the rail head and wheels treads has made no noticeable difference to the haulage capacity. If Cwmafon was up and running I would have an even better test but that layout hasn't been set up since we started using graphite.

[Graham Radish]

On 08/08/2020 at 00:00, Dagworth said:

 

So if graphite is such a relatively poor conductor according to you then our motors shouldn't work either as there are two pretty big lumps either side of the commutator.

 

Andi

Simply because there is no other option for cheap motors, and there are such things as brushless motors that perform much better, also phosphor bronze is the best thing to use, thats why its used on loco wheels as pickups, my dremel motor uses graphite and its speed is very erratic 

 

for low voltage applications graphite on the rails will put resistance between the rail and the wheel, which in turn you will be using more power (current) to do the same job as youre adding an extra layer of material of lower conductance- graphite is used for resistors (potentiomemters) as it has got a quite high resistance, so my recommendation is not to use it, but of course its entirely up to you, the ONLY thing i ever use is deoxit d100, a very excellent electrical contact cleaner but it aint cheap, its 30 quid a can. but one can of this for model railway track will last years, not only is this stuff the best thing you can use, its also an electrical carbon remover, and btw carbon is the worst enemy on the rails and guess what graphite is? carbon build up also destroys petrol engines

 

plain old peco track is a 10x better conductor, just keep the track clean job done.

 

I hope one day peco will come up with better track thats a nice shiny silver colour instead of light brown, maybe some sort of copper formulation that is silver in colour.

Edited September 6, 2020 by Graham Radish

[Oldddudders]

So, science has spoken and we're all wrong. Hacienda that, as they say in Spain. 

 

Except I am reminded of the pasta chef. Every scientist on the planet will tell you that oil and water cannot mix, the former simply sitting on the latter. But every pasta chef on the same planet continues to add oil when he boils his product.