HS2

[melmerby]

5 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

Just buy/lease them through “your” company........and let your accountant sort it out 

Lease them through your Cayman Island registered company and claim back the VAT.

[class26]

14 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

Just buy/lease them through “your” company........and let your accountant sort it out 

Doesn`t work, as I said the tax is eye watering on high end company cars. Cheaper to just buy as a private individual so you DO pay the VAT

[boxbrownie]

18 minutes ago, class26 said:

Doesn`t work, as I said the tax is eye watering on high end company cars. Cheaper to just buy as a private individual so you DO pay the VAT

My best mate manages it very well.......S Class Merc and costs him almost nothing........some people are just on a different level.

[TravisM]

It always made me smile about Greenham Common, those protesting about the nukes.  Yes, the launchers were there but the warheads were safely tucked away not far from where I live (supposedly).

 

If the balloon had gone up and the need to use them was the last resort, do you honestly think the military would have let a protest stop them?  If they had stood in the way, they would have been just run over.

Edited January 27, 2021 by jools1959
Typo

[Bernard Lamb]

58 minutes ago, class26 said:

Protest should be within the law. I suspect this lot were trespassing at the very least to say nothing about violating Covid regs. You cannot break the law just because you think you have a just cause. The law applies to all in a democracy

That depends on just how you are affected.

I would normally obey the law.

However around 17 years ago I lost my company pension due to some thieving venture capitalists.

A group of people took up the case with the government but after a few years were getting nowhere.

It got to the point of deciding to stage illegal demonstrations.

Various shadow ministers and MPs joined these demonstrations.

Some went on to hold very senior positions in the next government.

Eventually we won and got 90% of our money back.

Just be thankful that you have never been put in a position where you need to consider breaking the law as a last resort.

Worth it?

You bet.

Bernard

 

[Northmoor]

54 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

I notice that the Euston protestors are claiming that evicting them was a breach of Covid regulations.

 

Surely going to Euston Square to protest (not essential shopping, not exercising)  is a breach of the stay at home order, and as for cramming yourselves into a tightly-enclosed tunnel....

I'm not sure I would be able to control my laughter if one of the protesters developed a persistent cough, stuck in a confined space with their mates, all unable to leave as they must socially isolate.....

[Ron Ron Ron]

[298]

2 hours ago, woodenhead said:

In the scheme of the overall project, tis but a drop in the ocean.

 

But before you write them off as a bunch of idiots, some of them will be experts.

 

 

 

Some may call it bribery, but previous Swampys who spent months living up a tree are now self employed environmental experts on large projects on a nice hourly rate in an air conditioned Portakabin, looking for Great Crested Newts (which are so rare, every construction site is plagued by them...). 

[Pandora]

Sit in your armchair and mock in comfort, I have visited the protest at Euston Square and find the protesters to be intelligent people with points of view concerning HS2 perfectly  worthy of consideration.

Edited January 27, 2021 by Pandora

[RJS1977]

While they're down there, could they dig the much-needed link tunnel between 
Euston and Euston Square Underground stations?

[Northmoor]

26 minutes ago, Pandora said:

Sit in your armchair and mock in comfort, I have visited the protest at Euston Square and find the protesters to be intelligent people with points of view concerning HS2 perfectly  worthy of consideration.

I don't doubt some are, but the one quoted on the R4 news, shouting that no-one needed to travel to work anymore because, "We can do everything via Zoom meetings!", isn't one of them.  I've been so impressed by the remote treatment of Covid-19 patients via Zoom.....

 

Interestingly, a lot of the protesters are young(er) people, who are the primary customers for music festivals.  If they want to reduce unnecessary travel, perhaps we should propose banning live music, because everyone has to travel to something that can be easily downloaded or played on any number of formats.  Who needs to be there in person?  You can watch it online.

[Hesperus]

They've made quite a lot of fuss about evicting them considering that they were going to fence it off anyway so could just have stopped food supplies getting in and waited till they got hungry.

 

I'm not convinced that the 90's road protests got nowhere, I think they made a difference to public opinion which in turn led to the government spending less on new roads.  I was against those roads at the time but am quite glad of the infamous Newbury bypass when I have to drive vans down that way now.  Although if we had better public transport and more frieght going by rail then they might not be needed.

 

I signed up for XR and have donated money to them in the past but campaining against a piece of infastructure that should enable a shift to greener journeys seems unwise at best.  Campaigning against camper vans would seem better environmentally speaking but probably wouldn't the support.

[DLT]

6 minutes ago, Hesperus said:

 

I'm not convinced that the 90's road protests got nowhere, I think they made a difference to public opinion which in turn led to the government spending less on new roads.

 

At that time, the actions of Swampy and Co drew a lot of public and media scrutiny on these schemes, and how they were being handled and financed

 

The A30 dual-carriageway in East Devon was a case in point.  There was a very large body of opinion that said it wasn't needed, and eventually a Public Enquiry was promised. 

When that enquiry got under way, the campaigners found they had been completely stitched up.  The purpose of the enquiry was to decide the ROUTE of the new road, and NOT to debate whether to build it or not.

 

 

[Richard E]

3 hours ago, jools1959 said:

It always made me smile about Greenham Common, those protesting about the nukes.  Yes, the launchers were there but the warheads were safely tucked away not far from where I live (supposedly).

 

If the balloon had gone up and the need to use them was the last resort, do you honestly think the military would have let a protest stop them?  If they had stood in the way, they would have been just run over.

 

I've been told that the missiles and or any bombs involved were within 10 miles of where I'm sitting. Oddly enough a major part of the UK V bomber force were within a similar distance at one time so the storage infrastructure was there already.

 

And that storage infrastructure has seen illegal raves held inside the vaults, I wonder if they knew what allegedly used to be in there?

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Richard E said:

 

 

 

And that storage infrastructure has seen illegal raves held inside the vaults, I wonder if they knew what allegedly used to be in there?

They'll glow without using UV lights!

[Mike Storey]

2 hours ago, Pandora said:

Sit in your armchair and mock in comfort, I have visited the protest at Euston Square and find the protesters to be intelligent people with points of view concerning HS2 perfectly  worthy of consideration.

 

Absolutely fine. If their views were "worthy of consideration", why weren't they considered at the public enquiry?

 

Oh, knock me down with a feather, they were. And were rejected, as both inadequately robust and insufficiently argued against the general environmental gains and economic benefits. But they continue to argue the same old, much rebutted campaign, against the legal and parliamentary (democratic) process.

 

They have only one real argument left - that HS2 might no longer be needed post-Covid. There is scant evidence here. Trains were grossly overcrowded pre-Covid and many commuters, business and other travellers were choosing to use road or air as an alternative, as capacity could not be increased any further within existing constraints to accommodate them or freight. Evidence in between lockdowns suggests demand will reach at least 85% of pre-Covid levels (all modes) so that, given growth is predicted whatever, and modal shift is highly desirable, then HS2 will still be needed. Full stop. If they want that to continue with road and air, then they are the biggest numpties this side of Brexit, or they have significant investments in car, lorry and aeroplane industries. Given what we know about a certain campaigner, I would not be surprised at the latter.

[ess1uk]

4 hours ago, jools1959 said:

It always made me smile about Greenham Common, those protesting about the nukes.  Yes, the launchers were there but the warheads were safely tucked away not far from where I live (supposedly).

 

If the balloon had gone up and the need to use them was the last resort, do you honestly think the military would have let a protest stop them?  If they had stood in the way, they would have been just run over.

Molesworth and Wittering

[phil-b259]

4 hours ago, Pandora said:

Sit in your armchair and mock in comfort, I have visited the protest at Euston Square and find the protesters to be intelligent people with points of view concerning HS2 perfectly  worthy of consideration.

 

Which mostly investigated* during the lengthy inquiry / development proceeds which led up to the bill being approved by Parliament! I have very little time for people, however 'intelligent' who are unable to accept that anything discussed / evaluated in the run up to Parliament giving Royal assent is not up for negotiation now.  Just because they do not like the result doesn't mean their concerns were ignored, it means that they were outweighed by other considerations. The Government is there to Govern for the country - not local protest groups and ultimately if the UK parliament choses pass a bill then that needs to be respected however much it may grate. If you really don't like it then you perhaps need to consider who you elect to Parliament next time a general election happens.

 

*The only real 'new' thing which has emerged since is then which might have been relevant is the arrival of the Covid pandemic - however as it is frequently necessary to remind people HS2 is a project whose relative worth needs to be judged over a 40 - 50 year timescale not 5! While Covid (and the various Lockdowns / restrictions will naturally distort things in the short term - the eventual aim of the Government is for things to return to normal and that means people not being couped up in their homes but able to go out socialising, shopping, doing touristy things, seeing shows, attending music events, etc, etc. This will all involve travel and we are not going to meet climate change goals if everyone does that by motor vehicle so rail has a part to play in this - the freed up capacity allowing more frequent services to be provided for both passengers and freight.

[phil-b259]

3 hours ago, DLT said:

 

At that time, the actions of Swampy and Co drew a lot of public and media scrutiny on these schemes, and how they were being handled and financed

 

The A30 dual-carriageway in East Devon was a case in point.  There was a very large body of opinion that said it wasn't needed, and eventually a Public Enquiry was promised. 

When that enquiry got under way, the campaigners found they had been completely stitched up.  The purpose of the enquiry was to decide the ROUTE of the new road, and NOT to debate whether to build it or not.

 

 

 

Yes that was a bit of an oddball situation anyway.

 

For decades there has been a school of thought that rather than upgrade the A30 / A303 over the Blackdown Hills and on to Exeter via Honiton, it there is a far better business case to direct traffic from the A303 up the A358 from Ilminster to Taunton. This routing takes advantage of the fact that outside of peak holiday season the M5 has spare capacity between Taunton and Exeter plus an upgrade A385 also benefits north south traffic (Bristol - Taunton - Yeovil - Dorchester).

 

Granted, a by-pass of the villages between Honiton and Exeter was probably in itself not a bad idea - after all a significant volume of traffic joins the A30 at Honiton from the A35, but you do wonder if a single carriageway road would have been a better deal both for the environment as well as releasing money for other more strategic schemes.

 

One thing is for sure - there was a big drop in railway passengers between Feniton, Honiton and Axminster to / from Exeter thanks to the new road.

 

Edited January 28, 2021 by phil-b259

[DY444]

10 hours ago, Pandora said:

Sit in your armchair and mock in comfort, I have visited the protest at Euston Square and find the protesters to be intelligent people with points of view concerning HS2 perfectly  worthy of consideration.

 

So why don't they express those points of view through legitimate channels and express their opposition legally?  As soon as a group decides its views are so important that it can act illegally then I'm no longer interested.  It's just another example in the recent trend of groups believing they hold the concession on wisdom irrespective of what the majority think. 

[DY444]

8 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

They have only one real argument left - that HS2 might no longer be needed post-Covid. There is scant evidence here. Trains were grossly overcrowded pre-Covid and many commuters, business and other travellers were choosing to use road or air as an alternative, as capacity could not be increased any further within existing constraints to accommodate them or freight. Evidence in between lockdowns suggests demand will reach at least 85% of pre-Covid levels (all modes) so that, given growth is predicted whatever, and modal shift is highly desirable, then HS2 will still be needed. Full stop.

 

This is fundamental.  Trains into London in the peaks were not 100% loaded.  They were way above that on many lines and in many cases a reduction of 25-30% would still be full and standing.  The hard of thinking seem to think peak load factors of 40% will be the new norm.  They also seem to think that people will eat in restaurants, go to entertainment, cultural events, sports fixtures and visit friends by staying at home.  All fuelled by the media calling everybody that travels a commuter.

[Kris]

6 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

For decades there has been a school of thought that rather than upgrade the A30 / A303 over the Blackdown Hills and on to Exeter via Honiton, it there is a far better business case to direct traffic from the A303 up the A358 from Ilminster to Taunton.

 

The proposed new duel carriageway for the A358 is likely to go to public enquiry in the next 18 months.  

[Ron Ron Ron]

13 hours ago, Hesperus said:

....I'm not convinced that the 90's road protests got nowhere, I think they made a difference to public opinion which in turn led to the government spending less on new roads.  ........

 

The only things that have led to less spending on new roads are money (lack of) and NIMBY'ism.

 

95% of the motivation for objections to new roads is NIMBY'ism, these days often dressed up with environmental concerns.

 

The same with HS2,. The initial protestor group's prime motivation, was NIMBY.

The enormous cost has since become the major argument against.

The environmental lobby have simply jumped on this hobby horse.

 

 

14 hours ago, Pandora said:

........I have visited the protest at Euston Square and find the protesters to be intelligent people with points of view concerning HS2 perfectly  worthy of consideration.

 

History and present day experience tells us conclusively, that Intelligence doesn't equate to being immune from being wrong, misinformed, making errors of judgement, being easily manipulated, holding irrational beliefs, becoming deluded or subject to propaganda or brain washing. (...and yes it works both ways)

There are plenty of "intelligent", but dumb people in the world.

 

.

Edited January 28, 2021 by Ron Ron Ron

[Zomboid]

1 hour ago, DY444 said:

As soon as a group decides its views are so important that it can act illegally then I'm no longer interested. 

In most cases, but Gandhi and MLK wouldn't have got very far if they'd just operated within the bounds of the laws which repressed them.

 

That's a pretty feeble straw man here though, because HS2 has been thoroughly reviewed already. The protesters are basically the same mindset as the people who tried to take control of the US Senate the other week because they didn't like the outcome of a transparent and fair process.

[Trog]

I wonder if something could be pumped down into the tunnels to make living down their on cold dry food unbearable, perhaps the smell of frying bacon.