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Hornby 2021 - 4 & 6 wheel period coaches


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18 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That was Great Northern. As to North Eastern, the Hattons carriages are the right length - 32ft*, with flat ends - and the 5-compartment third, lavatory composite, and full brake aren't so very far off Diagrams 15, 6 and 21 - all types dating from the 1880s. There is a suitable locomotive in the offing, in the form of TMC's Bachmann-made Class O 0-4-4T.

 

*Nobody's yet answered the question how long the Hornby 6-wheelers are.

 

Indeed, I seem to recall feeding in some NER drawings photographed at York.  All in all I felt that, by taking on board a variety of influences and always striving to choose the more typical styles, Hattons did a superb job in synthesising  varied pre-Grouping practice to achieve a typical prototypical look.  You are to be commended for leading that effort and Hattons for being so open to advice based upon an understanding of how such coaches were actually constructed and appeared. They will, I predict, be a tough act to follow (or, in this case, precede!). 

 

Will we see some NER BLTs in future, with aforementioned Class Os, Hattons 6-wheelers and Rails/Heljan Autocars? It would make for a change.

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1 minute ago, Edwardian said:

Indeed, I seem to recall feeding in some NER drawings photographed at York. 

 

Indeed you did. There doesn't seem to be a good book on NER carriages - North Eastern Record Vol. 2 is mostly focused on changes in body style and how that affected livery and so doesn't give much detail on individual types, though there is a useful list of diagrams.

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18 hours ago, nathan70000 said:

It is a delightful oddity, but hardly representative of typical GWR branch line power? It seems to have led a fairly inauspicious nomadic existence and I highly doubt it was ever used on revenue earning passenger trains by the GWR.

 

For what it's worth, the Adams Radial has never been produced in Drummond green by either Oxford or Hornby. The LSWR model that Hornby have produced is in the earlier sage green and is sold out everywhere. Not even any on eBay.

This looks more Great Western to me...


908BA702-6884-4388-B27D-0255CB85AFC0.jpeg.e1fd25d3aa4325c6aca87ad0d9b02b23.jpeg

yet its 1000 miles away and 80 years later..

 

 

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Just now, Compound2632 said:

 

Indeed you did. There doesn't seem to be a good book on NER carriages - North Eastern Record Vol. 2 is mostly focused on changes in body style and how that affected livery and so doesn't give much detail on individual types, though there is a useful list of diagrams.

 

Indeed, and I felt that want keenly, which is why I took myself off to York and happened to have some pictures of NER drawings to hand when the Hattons project surfaced. 

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12 minutes ago, Nile said:

Assuming 14mm wheels, I make it 120mm, the six wheel coach that is.

 

Hum. 30ft. In his video, @Phil Parker shows the 4-wheeler to be 104 mm long - 26 ft (with 60 mm - 15 ft - wheelbase); the width of the panels between the compartments on that 4-compartment first look to be about the same as on the 6-wheel 5-compartment third, so perhaps nearer 31ft? If it is 30ft, the body at least of the 6-wheel first is really not a bad match for the preserved S&DJR No. 4 (which isn't on its original underframe anyway)! But wrong in many details, of course, and unlike the Hattons carriages, which when wrong for a particular company's carriages are right for several others', here they're just wrong.

Edited by Compound2632
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I was discussing this in the Brighton Circle email group earlier - it's looking like the six-wheelers are 32' following comparisons with the drawings, laid over the sample photographs;

 

image.png.291d8b72d9e07fa94a531004b02230db.png

 

 

The bodyside height looks to be Stroudleyesque, however, along with the roof arc. A strange hybrid beastie. 

 

(Photo edit credited to @Nick Holliday and @Ian White, whose drawings they are - I hope you don't mind my posting of these photos as they're pertinent to the discussion. I'll remove if preferred)

 

Furthermore, the underframe appears to be U-shape steel girder as opposed to a wooden or filtched plated one. The footboard height is off, too. The result is that they look nice, but they're almost like mini-Billintons, useable, but not ideal. 

 

On the four-wheelers, they look set to be much the same by way of detail. The brake carriage isn't too far off, though the compartment sizing throws it off:

 

image.png.1b1934b070f960e6435b6f20de1a55be.png

 

 

Hopefully that helps, folks?

 

Thanks to the people in the Brighton Circle e-group who are helping me with (yet another - I'm sure they must be fed up by now!) request regarding the use of these carriages to Hastings. 

 

On that note, I mentioned earlier I felt lost trying to find a matching set that would work for me. I'm considering cutting my losses and modelling a 'spare' set from 1916. It's better than nothing, I suppose. 

 

- Alex 

 

 

 

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14 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Perhaps nobody knows. Have you asked Hornby directly?

 

At the same time, you could ask them why there are NBR liveried ones?

 

Maude? They sold quite a few of them.

 

If these are aimed at the people who "don't really care" then that's a fictional NBR passenger train.

 

Maybe they'll do a J83 in fictional NBR livery at a later date. Yes, I do know the J83 is post 1924 condition. But some will buy them.

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15 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

At the same time, you could ask them why there are NBR liveried ones?

Demonstrates at least some originality in thinking ?

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11 hours ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

What about a blue Class 08 and some of these generic carriages in blue/grey. Then all bases are covered...:dancing:


I think their 06 in Blue would be so much more fitting ;)

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12 hours ago, Nile said:

Somewhere in the range 30-32ft I think, I'm trying to scale off a photo.

I'd assumed 32 feet when preparing the overlay that @AVS1998 posted, which seemed to tally quite well with the photos.  The overlay is of a 32' brake second.

Seeing the comment that the model may be 30' long, I have done the same exercise with Ian White's drawing of a 30 foot brake third, enlarging it until it matches the model's overall length.

image.png.d0440572d22f8ca97f1e15aa47264d86.png

As can be seen, that is not a happy match, so I'd be inclined to suggest that it is 32 feet long, or thereabouts, but the roof profile is too low even for a generic design.

Edited by Nick Holliday
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.

 

This may be better asked elsewhere, But I'll try here first.   

 

In the pre-grouping era, were inter-railway trains common, or were they mostly confined to their own rails.   Obviously where railway companies had joint running rights (say out of a terminus) there would be a mixture of trains, but elsewhere ?

 

I am thinking of something like Redhill where you might get a train from Ashford, or Tonbridge, and trains down the Brighton line, and also trains from Reading, or Guildford, or Basingstoke - so trains from at least three companies.   But unless passengers had to always change, it would make sense for trains to have running rights over other sections, such that passengers could go from Ashford to Basingstoke without changing ?

 

.

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Some  notable examples might be South Wales- Chester & Birkenhead, Oxford to Guildford, Gloucester, Cardiff, Swansea, Bristol, Reading, Banbury, Pontypridd, Barry, Salisbury.

 

The Railway Clearing House maps are your best bet.   

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25 minutes ago, phil gollin said:

.

 

This may be better asked elsewhere, But I'll try here first.   

 

In the pre-grouping era, were inter-railway trains common, or were they mostly confined to their own rails.   Obviously where railway companies had joint running rights (say out of a terminus) there would be a mixture of trains, but elsewhere ?

 

I am thinking of something like Redhill where you might get a train from Ashford, or Tonbridge, and trains down the Brighton line, and also trains from Reading, or Guildford, or Basingstoke - so trains from at least three companies.   But unless passengers had to always change, it would make sense for trains to have running rights over other sections, such that passengers could go from Ashford to Basingstoke without changing ?

 

.

 

In the South, you had the Kent - Brighton train, with portions from Deal, Thanet and North Kent all culminating at Ashford and working via Hastings, with an LBSCR-provided train running in the opposite direction. There was also the South Coast Express, which officially was an LBSCR train from Hastings to Portsmouth but it appears as though it also had connections via Ashford again from the SECR (granted, these were not through Kent coaches to Portsmouth, but still pertinent to this discussion)

 

There were also LSWR trains to Dover via the Redhill line (I can't remember the exact details). Other useful cross-overs may be the GNR-operated trains in North Kent again, Midland trains which I think ran through Kentish Town, possibly to Maidstone (someone with a better knowledge of the SECR/Midland timetables would be able to offer better insight) and anything GWR - South, such as the trains to Folkestone and Dover, although I believe these were, from the 1880s, exclusively operated with dedicated bogie stock (Diagrams F. 37 and 38 for Folkestone Harbour).

 

Don't forget inter-company theatrical specials, race and excursion trains, and hop-picker and soft fruit picker trains, which would bring holidaymakers/workers down from London to the Southern counties for the summer. These were often geriatric coaches by this point. 

 

I've also mentioned, in a previous post, deciding to model a 'spare' LBSCR carriage set - this is another option, finding so-called 'spare' sets that are a bit more flexible in their constitution. 

 

I hope this helps,

 

Alex 

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14 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Steeple-cab electric anyone? (on the same chassis as Nellie IIRC)

 

John

Red with dummy pantograph, green with working one.

 

Actually, I think that Nellie had the same chassis as the Steeple-cab.  The maroon Steeple-cab appeared in the Primary set RP.C of 1959, Nellie in 1961.

 

(And going by the R numbers, Steeple-cab R252/R254, Nellie R355)

 

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On foreign coaches, as per the examples given, it would be relatively common for portions of a train to be made up of a through portion from some other company's train. Here you may have, in effect, a mini-train of foreign coaches (using these coaches as an example, say a brake third, composite and full brake) forming part of a longer train of home company carriages. 

 

What I came onto post was, however, my first niggle.

 

Alex's post with the Brighton overlays brought it home to me that the lighting arrangements on the 4-wheel brake thirds make absolutely no sense whatsover!

 

Slide138.JPG.85967b05bc3acb3c14e335af3301e2ab.jpeg.4c7c43f2a4ffc8d25601cdfefae8028b.jpeg

 

 

To save cost (which we have to accept is an imperative for all manufacturers and some such compromises have to be expected) Hornby has evidently used the same roof on the 4-wheel brake third and the 4-wheel full brake.  Actually what Hornby has done is produce a single roof that suits neither type of coach.

 

Take the 4-wheel brake third, lighting for this would be, either, a light over each compartment (3) and one for the guard, or, a light over the compartment divisions (between the quarter lights) (2), a frequently employed economy measure whereby each compartment shared a light with its neighbour.  I expect you would only get half-height partitions between compartments in such a case, another thing sometimes found in third class.

 

What Hornby have given your little passengers, which, as I say, makes no sense at all, is a single lamp placed centrally over the central compartment.  Thus, this compartment is fully lit, its neighbours fully dark.

 

Nor does the arrangement make much sense for the full brake.  A more common arrangement would be for the guard to have his lamp, but for there to be no light over the luggage compartment. Here it is of interest that the coach is a stretched version of the Stroudley full brake*, as several here have noted, which had an oil pot over the guard, but not one over the luggage compartment. 

 

Hornby's un-prototypical lighting arrangement applies both to it's oil lit and gas lit versions.  

 

This is exactly the sort of prototypically illiterate solecism that the Hattons team strove hard to avoid. In other words, neither range might represent a particular prototype correctly, but I do have a high level of confidence that Hattons' will represent a 'freelance' coach that could have been built to look exactly as Hattons depict it, as it will be prototypical. 

 

It's not the end of the world, however.  If I find a use for either coach (which remains to be seen at this stage), I would add lamps to the outer third compartments and remove that over the luggage space on the full brake.  I doubt many owners will bother, but for some of us, that nonsensical arrangement will always stand out.

 

*the Hornby 4-wheelers are assumed to be 26' or thereabouts, the standard length of a Stroudley 4-wheeler, but the Stroudley full brakes were an exception, being only 20'.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Edwardian
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1 hour ago, phil gollin said:

This may be better asked elsewhere, But I'll try here first.   

 

In the pre-grouping era, were inter-railway trains common, or were they mostly confined to their own rails.   Obviously where railway companies had joint running rights (say out of a terminus) there would be a mixture of trains, but elsewhere ?

 

I am thinking of something like Redhill where you might get a train from Ashford, or Tonbridge, and trains down the Brighton line, and also trains from Reading, or Guildford, or Basingstoke - so trains from at least three companies.   But unless passengers had to always change, it would make sense for trains to have running rights over other sections, such that passengers could go from Ashford to Basingstoke without changing ?.

 

Plenty of through carriages, certainly from the larger companies, and reaching well beyond places where they had running powers. For example, in 1903 the Midland had through carriages or portions to:

  • Dover & Deal, via Kentish Town, Met Widened Lines and the LCDR/SECR - with in SECR days a reciprocal arrangement with a SECR brake composite running through to Manchester;
  • Southampton, from Bradford/Leeds via Cheltenham and the M&SWJR;
  • Bournemouth, from as far afield as Newcastle, via Bath and the S&DJR - with a reciprocal arrangement by which some S&DJR carriages were used for semi-fast services between Bristol, Birmingham, and Derby, to balance the mileage;
  • Various GWR west country destinations, including Weston and even Penzance at one time, via Bristol;
  • Swansea, from Birmingham - Swansea was a Midland outpost but the through carriage was worked by GW train between Worcester and Hereford;
  • Aberystwyth, from Hereford via Three Cocks Jn and the Cambrian;
  • Llandudno, from Nottingham;
  • Bolton and Blackburn, from London via Manchester Victoria and the L&Y;
  • Blackpool and Southport, via L&Y (not checked route);
  • Barrow, from London via Leeds, Carnforth, and the Furness - connecting with steamers from Ramsden Dock;
  • Coniston, from Leeds via Carnforth and the Furness;
  • Windermere Lakeside and Whitehaven, as above, from London;
  • Newcastle, from Bristol, Birmingham, Derby etc.;
  • Hull, ditto;
  • Harrogate, as above plus London;
  • Bridlington, from Sheffield;
  • Edwinstowe LD&EC, from Manchester
  • Lynn, Cromer, and Norwich, from Birmingham and Leicester, via the M&GN;
  • Great Yarmouth ditto plus Liverpool and Manchester, Derby and Nottingham;
  • Ipswich from Birmingham and Leicester; Harwich from Manchester, via Peterborough and the GER;
  • Southend and Tilbury (P&O boat trains) from London via LT&SR.

If one is prepared to count joint stock under the Midland heading (and the joint stock was supplemented by Midland vehicles, including sleeping cars), then via the G&SWR:

  • Glasgow, Stranraer, Ayr, and Greenock;

and via the NBR and Highland, all via Edinburgh:

  • Edinburgh, Dundee, Aberdeen, Perth, Inverness, and Fort William.
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15 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Why does the pseudo-NBR liveried brake third lack class designations on the doors and have ENG CARLISLE at the LH end?

Because it's generic.

 

IGMC

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