Thought experiment - if you were starting an entirely new range of UK model trains, what would you start?

[John Harris]

14 hours ago, friscopete said:

16.5 narrow gauge .I would start with a Quarry Hunslet .

 

I agree, though I'd start with a set tied in to one of the North Wales' lines, you would get sales from visitors who were not specifically model railway enthusiasts.  Perhaps even an unpowered version for the mantlepiece.  Nicely painted and accurate, perhaps "Prince and three 'bug boxes'" or "Dolgoch and some wagons" (I realise there is a gauge difference).  A Hunslet could follow.

 

jch

[Phatbob]

Another vote for a TT range, although mine would be engineered for 14.2 gauge, but sold with 12mm wheelsets so that my customers could use track that is already available.   I'd go for late BR steam and first generation diesel type stuff, available in blue as well as green, so to speak. 

 

[MyRule1]

I will start my comments with the old joke, it I want to end up with an small fortune by investing in this new range I would start off with a large fortune, I think that most realistic options are covered and few people could be persuaded to change their current gauge/scale whatever. So we are liking at either increasing the market through new entrants or getting existing modellers  to have a second interest.

 

I agree that

14 hours ago, friscopete said:

16.5 narrow gauge .I would start with a Quarry Hunslet .

 could be one way forward, I have a far amount of OO track that is surplus to requirements and using the track for narrow gauge would be interesting, especially if the stock matched an existing modelling scale such as 1/35 or 1/48th. I have not worked out the track gauge that would be modelled.

 

The other option has also been mentioned the Triang Big-Big train. Last years tie up between Hornby and Lionel regarding the Hogwarts Express was interesting in this respect. The TV programme   "The Biggest Little Railway in the World " showed what could be done with cheap plastic track, 71 miles with live steam! In initial range of track and trains in a large scale aimed at children. Wagons that could carry those cheap Corgi type toy cars, as children are not too worried by scale, a cheap Santa Train at Christmas etc. Something that would work from a floor on a room in a Flat or small house upwards. The loco's would be R/C controlled but with a Bluetooth interface allowing control from a mobile phone or tablet.

 

I would guess the cottage industry would start to produce some more stock and once that has started to take off I would start to produce metal track in two sizes, same as the original plastic and a more fine scale and then the original manufacturer could launch their scale range. I would start with a class 66 and intermodal wagons as they would have some  appeal to modellers in other countries.

 

 

[caradoc]

TT would be nice, but UK outline HO scale would be even nicer ! If only Airfix and Mainline had gone for that in the 1970s......

 

An 08 and 37 would be a start for the BR blue era, and a 4-6-0 and pannier tank would surely do the GWR fans ? 

 

 

[APOLLO]

TT for me. I started with Tri-ang (etc) TT back in 1960

 

Ex LMS Black 5, Jubilee or Royal Scot, Jinty

Ex LNER  A3, B1, O something 2-8-0, J50 

EX GWR Hall or Grange or Manor, Pannier tank.

EX SR Spam Can

 

Diesels = Brush 4, Western, Sulzer Type 2 EE Type 1, EE type 3,  08 Shunter, Commonest 2 car DMU 

 

Coaches, Mk 1's, Mk 2's

 

Wagons - The usual stuff, minerals, vans, planks, flays, Brake Vens LNER / GWR Toad

 

A decent range of trackwork.

 

Never happen !!!!!

 

Brit15

 

 

[Nearholmer]

59 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

I believe BIG BIG train ran on 0 gauge track?  So you have a budget rtr SM32 which might also have some appeal to adult users as an outdoor system.  Easy convertibility to 45mm gauge for compatibility with LGB would be sensible.

I like the r-t-r large scale NG idea, with play value, but would point out that LGB already do all that in their ‘toy’ range, so the USP of the proposal would be a different gauge, which I can’t help thinking would be a ULow-SP.

 

I do think that r-t-r 016.5 might be a goer though.

Edited January 27, 2021 by Nearholmer

[MyRule1]

To add to my previous post.

 

Using 16.5 track in 1/48 would give a gauge of 792mm (31inch), 1/35 577mm(22.7 in - vary close to 2ft)

 

The other way around a 1/35 scale play train etc would have a gauge of about 40mm so sit between O and 1 gauge. 

[Phil Parker]

47 minutes ago, MyRule1 said:

In initial range of track and trains in a large scale aimed at children. Wagons that could carry those cheap Corgi type toy cars, as children are not too worried by scale, a cheap Santa Train at Christmas etc. Something that would work from a floor on a room in a Flat or small house upwards. The loco's would be R/C controlled but with a Bluetooth interface allowing control from a mobile phone or tablet.

 

Most of that, including the controller (Locoremote, although that is WiFi) is or has been available already. 

[john new]

15 hours ago, eldomtom2 said:

Assume you were creating a new range of UK model trains in a scale previously uncatered to for the UK (think Z etc., though the actual scale doesn't matter*). What would you start with to provide maximum coverage/appeal with as little products as possible?

 

*Assume it's a scale where large tender engines are viable products, though

Personally I think introducing any new scale/gauge combination would lead to bankruptcy in a very short time frame. Some of the other suggestions though do make sense, especially the idea of reintroducing the  plastic Big-Big range but with radio control. Summer use in the garden, especially with the plastic track, but in brown not red plastic!

[friscopete]

I always ask would you put your own money in it .Great ideas to please a few hundred lost souls maybe .At least the narrow gauge 16.5 option is  in line with 0n30 and you can run it all together.a mericans may well buy it too cos it looks sweet  and fun  .One thing I have leaned from far too many years in the business is only a few go around with slide rules and a society handbook .99 percent just buy what they like ,when they like and if it looks good and colourful so much the better .I too like TT scale but I wouldn't put my money on it .I would certainly  ignore all the scale  fanatics sermons on what scale is what and make sure you can stick it on track  preferably already there and easy to buy in model shops .I guess Blackstone H0n3 is a good case .Magnificent models but not sure  it made them any money which I assume derives mainly from Soundtraxx.If it was a money spinner they would make more ,thats how capitalism works .They didnt even make a Kato type switch/point  for their snap track.

Edited January 27, 2021 by friscopete

[CloggyDog]

I'd go with UK outline models in TT (1:120) and H0 (1:87). And common-or-garden locos, not the flashy pacifics. Black 5/B1/Hall/S15, Moguls and Praries, 8F/2800/O4, 0-6-0 of tank and tender varieties. 08, 20, 25, 26/27, 31, 37, 40,  45 and 47. DMUs and a useable range of 'porridge' stock.

 

Given the track standards for 12mm and 16.5mm are well established and used across the world, why perpetuate the legacy UK bodges of 3mm and 4mm scale?  

[009 micro modeller]

2 hours ago, MyRule1 said:

1/35 577mm(22.7 in - vary close to 2ft)

 

Which also makes it spot on (pretty much) for the 1' 10 3/4" gauge used by Penrhyn and Dinorwic. S scale (1:64) on 9mm gauge is another combination that works for this.

[whart57]

Leave OO well alone, that market is saturated already.

 

I'd consider the infrastructure into which it would fit - what support would there be for my venture from other manufacturers. Is there scenery and figures available to support my efforts, does PECO make suitable track? If not then my venture will have to be bigger in scope.

 

For that reason I would not do TT/3mm scale and I certainly would not do S. I could do British outline HO but I always wonder what the point of that is aside of the fact that the marketing would be very confusing for the beginners and general public. So no.

 

Basically it comes down to narrow gauge then, either OO9 or On16.5. Or O or OO scale narrow gauge somehow.

 

As PECO do HOm track one possibility could be OO scale on 12mm gauge track with the Isle of Man and Irish narrow gauge providing the prototype. County Donegal with its railbuses (two of which ended up on the Isle of Man) and large tank engine locos would make a good starting point with the Isle of Man and its Beyer Peacock 2-4-0Ts a close second.

 

The problem I see with On16.5 is that the track gauge is neither one thing nor another, too wide for 2' gauge prototypes and not really right for the others either. However, as most narrow gauge lines had limited amount of stock, my approach would be  a trainset affair. loco with coach or wagons done together. So maybe start with Welshpool and Llanfair's Earl/Countess (in Swindonised form) with open goods and brakevan. That could be followed up with Earl/Countess in original form and a coach. After that there would be the Talylynn, done second because it had more stock than the W&L.

 

If I were to do 2' gauge protoypes, either industrials or the Ffestiniog/Welsh Highland, then I would give a lot of consideration to doing 14mm gauge track

 

 

[37114]

Another vote for TT/3mm range but unfortunately I think we are 60 years too late. It allows greater detail than N (taking nothing away from excellent 2 mm finescale model layouts such as Blueball summit and the work of Jerry Clifford for example) but less space than 00 so you can get more on your layout/smoother curves. The challenge is that to make anything like a business model to break even requires the ability to sell in volumes which stretch beyond the modeller customers and into Joe Public, the latter of which zone in on the "Hornby" brand as it is so well known and thus start down a route of 00. 

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, whart57 said:

As PECO do HOm track one possibility could be OO scale on 12mm gauge track with the Isle of Man and Irish narrow gauge providing the prototype. County Donegal with its railbuses (two of which ended up on the Isle of Man) and large tank engine locos would make a good starting point with the Isle of Man and its Beyer Peacock 2-4-0Ts a close second.

 

00n3 is reasonably well served by kits, though not to the extent that 009 is, as well as, recently, the Oxford Diecast (I think) IoM locos. So any RTR could fit nicely into what already exists, rather like the current 009 RTR. There is also, as far as I know, a reasonable amount of H0m RTR still produced. However, I don’t think the market for any sort of 00n3 provision is anywhere near as large as the equivalent market for 009. Most people seem to want to model NG lines of around 2ft gauge.

 

(My earlier Heywood-based suggestion was very niche and not really looking at commercial viability, apologies if I missed the idea of the thread slightly.)

 

1 hour ago, whart57 said:

The problem I see with On16.5 is that the track gauge is neither one thing nor another, too wide for 2' gauge prototypes and not really right for the others either. However, as most narrow gauge lines had limited amount of stock, my approach would be  a trainset affair. loco with coach or wagons done together. So maybe start with Welshpool and Llanfair's Earl/Countess (in Swindonised form) with open goods and brakevan. That could be followed up with Earl/Countess in original form and a coach. After that there would be the Talylynn, done second because it had more stock than the W&L.

 

016.5 is almost exactly right for Glyn Valley and Snailbeach and very close for the Talyllyn. Going up, it is similarly close for 2’ 6” gauge lines. The GVT seems to be a popular choice for 009 RTR, although given that, unlike other lines, the locos do not survive and it has closed I’m not absolutely sure why. I agree that 016.5 looks wrong for 2ft, but on the other hand it’s only out by about a scale inch more than 009, which generally looks OK and is often used to model 2ft gauge. Maybe the larger scale makes the difference more obvious. I like the train pack/train set idea though.

 

1 hour ago, whart57 said:

If I were to do 2' gauge protoypes, either industrials or the Ffestiniog/Welsh Highland, then I would give a lot of consideration to doing 14mm gauge track

 

This is one way to do it, another (slightly less accurate) way is to increase the scale to 1:35. But 7mm is probably better supported with other items.

[Bucoops]

I've always assumed those that model in TT are sadists who refuse to have anything ready to run so not sure there would be much market? I guess you could get them made, then always send them by hermes so guaranteed to arrive in kit form*

 

*Or not arrive at all, so realistic timetabling too.

[CloggyDog]

6 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

I've always assumed those that model in TT are sadists who refuse to have anything ready to run so not sure there would be much market? I guess you could get them made, then always send them by hermes so guaranteed to arrive in kit form*

 

*Or not arrive at all, so realistic timetabling too.

 

Most of my TT stock is modern ready to run. DCC ready, decent couplers, fine wheel profile running well on excellent track. Even the kits are as good as (or better than)  Parkside. 

 

But then, I am modelling Ceske Drahy 

[boxbrownie]

Whatever scale/gauge it would be I’d definitely investigate the battery/radio control route........what makes most new comers to the hobby shake in their boots is the track wiring/sectioning whether it be D.C. or DCC......just imagine, click the track together in any formation/combination you wanted and plonk a Loco on and off it trundles, quite happily over lumps bumps, spilt coffee patches, sticky sweet wrappers (OK a bit extreme) and continues to work for a good few hours (plenty of time for each individual Loco really), looking at some of these motorised 4mm vehicles 

[Satan's Goldfish]

20 hours ago, eldomtom2 said:

Assume you were creating a new range of UK model trains in a scale previously uncatered to for the UK (think Z etc., though the actual scale doesn't matter*). What would you start with to provide maximum coverage/appeal with as little products as possible?

 

*Assume it's a scale where large tender engines are viable products, though

 

Locos and stock that were common and could be seen everywhere: Mk1 coaches (introduce mk2 as well if practicable) as they can be run with BR Steam, diesel, and electric up to privatisation. Class 37 and 47 diesel locomotives can cover a majority of mainline and branch diesel loco services, plus a couple of BR standards for steam era, (i'm not too good with steam classes, but aren't black 5 and 8f fairly similar?). an 08 and small steam loco if shunting is built in too. 16t mineral wagon and a few other common types that cover the same era. Avoid long block trains to start with until the range takes off more which is why i've not mentioned 66s or HSTs.

[fezza]

A complete range of British HO contemporary scene - including modern dmus with the latest liveries - and at sensible prices. It would only work if customers could be assured a whole range would be available. 

[96701]

13 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

Whatever scale/gauge it would be I’d definitely investigate the battery/radio control route........what makes most new comers to the hobby shake in their boots is the track wiring/sectioning whether it be D.C. or DCC......just imagine, click the track together in any formation/combination you wanted and plonk a Loco on and off it trundles, quite happily over lumps bumps, spilt coffee patches, sticky sweet wrappers (OK a bit extreme) and continues to work for a good few hours (plenty of time for each individual Loco really), looking at some of these motorised 4mm vehicles 

There could be live tracks in particular places that could charge batteries?

[boxbrownie]

9 minutes ago, 96701 said:

There could be live tracks in particular places that could charge batteries?

There you go....it’s coming together already 

[MyRule1]

1 hour ago, 009 micro modeller said:

This is one way to do it, another (slightly less accurate) way is to increase the scale to 1:35. But 7mm is probably better supported with other items.

I would agree the 7mm is supported in railway modelling but there is a huge range of military & civilian vehicles, buildings, figures etc available in 1:35. It was that market I would be looking to tie into.

[009 micro modeller]

27 minutes ago, MyRule1 said:

I would agree the 7mm is supported in railway modelling but there is a huge range of military & civilian vehicles, buildings, figures etc available in 1:35. It was that market I would be looking to tie into.

 

I agree, I was posting in the context of the 014 suggestion above. For certain prototypes the availability of rail-related stuff (and appropriate standard gauge equipment) might be more important.

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, Bucoops said:

I've always assumed those that model in TT are sadists who refuse to have anything ready to run so not sure there would be much market? I guess you could get them made, then always send them by hermes so guaranteed to arrive in kit form*

 

*Or not arrive at all, so realistic timetabling too.

 

I did see a blog post once by a TT modeller who wrote that the introduction of too much commercial support would cause him to switch to S scale...