Titanic link for old carriages suggested

[corneliuslundie]

BBC news story:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-56941766

Jonathan

[billbedford]

What are we supposed make of people who buy derelict rolling stock and leave it to rot for 30 years, and then complain when asked to move them?

[Nearholmer]

Be very interesting to know how firm the link is ...... do they have information about the vehicles in particular trains? 

 

I know there is photographic evidence for the odd vehicle, e.g. in Father Brown's photos, but it does seem a stretch to believe that these particular vehicles were "there on the day".

 

 

Edited April 30, 2021 by Nearholmer

[John M Upton]

Dubious connection in my opinion.  Whilst the same style of carriage may have been formed in said train, the chances of one let alone both of these carriages having been actually there is remote and quite frankly unproveable unless a carriage formation register from that day still exists somewhere. 

[Compound2632]

Nevertheless, if making that connection is what is needed to get a couple of LSWR carriages preserved and restored...

[Oldddudders]

59 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Nevertheless, if making that connection is what is needed to get a couple of LSWR carriages preserved and restored...

Yes. Please don't let historical dubiety cloud their vision yet. Once they have been restored, surely they may claim they were Adam & Eve's wedding train - sponsored by Apple? - for all we care.

[Wickham Green too]

Perhaps they should go back to the Mad-Hints where they came from .................. and where the guys so very nearly DID manage to restore an L.S.W.R. Dining Car !

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, billbedford said:

What are we supposed make of people who buy derelict rolling stock and leave it to rot for 30 years, and then complain when asked to move them?

 

That they have bitten off more than they can chew, or never had a plan.

 

I take it these are the vehicles concerned:

 

http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=307

http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=310

 

As they are (were) restaurant carriages, it ought to be possible to identify the services they worked.

 

At the same site, an "Ironclad": http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=2612

 

I was intrigued by these apparently just-about-surviving "Eagle" saloons:

http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=2612

http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=6315

 

 

[corneliuslundie]

If they could take them for a while I would have thought the best thing might be to move them to the Blaenavon Railway site pending finding a proper home.

And yes, if they were restaurant cars it may be possible to find their workings. I am going to ask the LSWR HMRS Steward

Jonathan

[Nearholmer]

10 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

That they have bitten off more than they can chew, or never had a plan.

 

 

Yep.

 

Its the slightly bigger and slightly more deluded version of the drawer-full of old clockwork locos that I've got "awaiting restoration".

[caradoc]

5 hours ago, John M Upton said:

Dubious connection in my opinion.  Whilst the same style of carriage may have been formed in said train, the chances of one let alone both of these carriages having been actually there is remote and quite frankly unproveable unless a carriage formation register from that day still exists somewhere. 

 

Maybe someone could secret a suitably-aged Titanic boarding pass behind a panel in one of the coaches.....

 

[Johann Marsbar]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I was intrigued by these apparently just-about-surviving "Eagle" saloons:

http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=2612

http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=6315

 

 

 

The one in Israel looks a bit different to that now.  It was mentioned in Steam Railway magazine a few months ago that it was well on the way to being fully restored (as an Ambulance car)....

 

Edited April 30, 2021 by Johann Marsbar

[pete_mcfarlane]

I like the claim on the BBC article that these' have been 'discovered' and 'found'. Even though they are on the VCT list for all to see. 

 

 

[jonhall]

The previous owner was making some progress in Blaenavon, however Cancer got him, before they were progressed very far.

 

Jon

[Grizz]

19 hours ago, billbedford said:

What are we supposed make of people who buy derelict rolling stock and leave it to rot for 30 years, and then complain when asked to move them?

Bill, I so totally agree with your comment., that is the 64K dollar question. 

The problem is that for years (mostly since the 1970s onwards) groups of people with utterly no grasp of reality, financial wherewithal to carry out the works or the ability to make real-time progress, have been allowed to continue ‘storing’ vehicles or pet projects at various railway locations. They are convinced that because they have always done it, with little or no cost to themselves, this gives them the right to continue to do so. They believe that rakes of decaying hulks are what people come to see, because it’s always been like that. 
 

Times have changed and they have refused to change with it. Were anyone to be injured or physically harmed by any of these wrecks then hopefully the owners would be sued for damages. Structural assessments should be in place for all of these ‘Precious Projects’ and risk assessments based on their condition should be in place to prevent injury. Unfortunately it is likely the railway operating departments who will end up in the cart, rather than some in the preservation flat earth brigade, who should hang their heads in shame for allowing vehicles to deteriorate. Preservationist like this are a joke. 
 

If a coach, wagon or loco is soooooo unique that it must be saved or it will be a ‘Crime Against Preservation’, then why do so many of them end up decomposing to the point that they are unsafe. 
 

The bottom line is that the reason these people continue behave this way is that there are no consequences to their actions or inactions. Unfortunately the only real way this will change is some poor soul receiving a serious injury. 

Edited May 1, 2021 by Grizz
Politeness and reflection... ; )

[Oldddudders]

It's about dreams. Does none of us have those? They 'rescued' these vehicles from some sort of fate years ago, but now real life has caught up with them. I believe that some preservation societies have volunteer specialists who have taken former dwellings and lovingly turned them back into proper rolling coaches, so the task isn't entirely hopeless, if introductions could be made, and feasibility is found.

 

I find '"hammer them" to be rather pointless. What is their actual crime? Being impecunious dreamers? Chickens coming home to roost is bad enough for them. And in what circs "is some poor soul receiving a serious injury" going to happen? No preserved line is going to allow any visitor near these vehicles until they have been examined and certified fit for whatever access is being offered.

 

I share your view that reality and a certain segment of the enthusiast market have yet to be introduced. But these people are harmless. Or did you have a bid in on these vehicles when the present owners bought them? 

[corneliuslundie]

I suspect that in most cases much of the deterioration occurred while they were in use as sheds, summer houses etc for several decades, and that they were in pretty bad shape when rescued.

Yes, there have been some spectacular restorations of very old carriages by groups in various parts of the country. Otherwise some of the vehicles run by preserved lines would no longer exist. Even pre-grouping vehicles which have been obtained straight from the "main line" have usually been altered in major ways while in departmental use and require major rebuilding. Not a few of the older preserved coaches were without chassis. . But it is usually groups rather than individuals which succeed. Such as the Bluebell Carriage Fund.

Jonathan

[Grizz]

12 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

And in what circs "is some poor soul receiving a serious injury" going to happen? No preserved line is going to allow any visitor near these vehicles until they have been examined and certified fit for whatever access is being offered.

 

I share your view that reality and a certain segment of the enthusiast market have yet to be introduced. But these people are harmless. Or did you have a bid in on these vehicles when the present owners bought them?

Point taken...retracted..apologies.

 

However as I am sure you know preserved railways are not immune from prosecution under uk law. I have seen first hand such coaches and wagons deteriorate to such an extent that parts such as doors fall out of coaches, sides fall off wagons, floors collapse, roofs collapse. Structural items such as sole bars with less than 50% of the steel left. Bowed coach sides and partially collapsed roofs with body sides completed detached from the under frames. Many of these vehicles have sat deteriorating since arrival...30-40 years before. Many are so structurally unsound that they can’t be shunted or even safely entered into. Not all railways are like this though.

Because there hasn’t been an injury doesn’t mean there won’t be one. If someone (a volunteer or paid member of staff) were to be injured and present themselves to a hospital then the conversation would likely go..”where did this happen....ah yes XXXX Preserved Railway PLC” ...this is a notifiable accident under H&S at Work Act 1974. Times have changed, some people have not.  I am all for having dreams but there has to be cold hard reality. Where will the dreamers be when it is time to face the music? Their very pet projects may well end up being sold to pay for fines etc. 

 

Looking at it from a slightly different angle, why do vehicles in such a state need to be on a railway? If they are precious and irreplaceable then they should be placed into storage, however this need not necessarily be at a railway. They are not an operational vehicles until they are deemed safe to use. Aircraft and road vehicles are often stored and restored in locations away from the location where they will finally be based. But this costs money and if no one has had to pay anything for dumping their pet project in a siding for 30 years then why would they change their behaviour? No motivation to do anything. 

 

Worse still trespassing is unfortunately not treated as a crime so were someone to climb on a hulk and become injured the Operation Railway PLC would ultimately end up liable for someone’s failed dream. 
 

Totally take your point on dreams...what would we have lost from the past if someone hadn’t dared to dream. Right now I am dreaming of a full cooked breakfast, hopefully it will be become reality in about 10 minutes.
 

 

Edited May 1, 2021 by Grizz

[Dunsignalling]

Somebody fortunately had sufficient motivation to save vehicles from destruction in the past. Some will eventually be revived and run again, some won't, but what no longer exists can't be restored.

 

The Heritage railway sector has, for many years, had a (relatively) easy and cheap supply of coaches courtesy of plentiful redundant BR Mk1 stock. In some cases, these have just been used until something expensive needed doing, then sold for scrap.

 

All these are gradually approaching the point where significant repair/restoration will become necessary, and the ease/cheapness balance between them and older vehicles will narrow. Whilst there are some full trains of group-era stock to be seen in preservation, similar formations of pre-group stock remain elusive. 

 

As the "easy" option becomes harder, and more lines seek the additional appeal that having more historic vehicles in operation bring to those that already have them, It's reasonable to expect that  more "stored" vehicles will rise up the "to do" lists. 

 

The r-t-r model sector is gradually moving earlier and stimulating interest in older vehicles for many who previously just thought " a coach is a coach, is a Mk.1" so will probably deserve a little of the credit. 

 

John

Edited May 1, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[MPR]

 

9 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Somebody fortunately had sufficient motivation to save these vehicles from destruction in the past. Some will eventually be revived and run again, some won't, but what no longer exists can't be restored.

 

The Heritage railway sector has, for many years, had a (relatively) easy and cheap supply of coaches courtesy of plentiful redundant BR Mk1 stock. In some cases, these have just been used until something expensive needed doing, then sold for scrap.

 

All these are gradually approaching the point where significant repair/restoration will become necessary, and the ease/cheapness balance between them and older vehicles will narrow. Whilst there are some full trains of group-era stock to be seen in preservation, similar formations of pre-group stock remain elusive. 

 

As the "easy" option becomes harder, and more lines seek the additional appeal that having more historic vehicles in operation bring to those that already have them, It's reasonable to expect that  more "stored" vehicles will rise up the "to do" lists. 

 

The r-t-r model sector is gradually moving earlier and stimulating interest in older vehicles for many who previously just thought " a coach is a coach, is a Mk.1" so will probably deserve a little of the credit. 

 

John

In the light of the comment above, the linked website makes fascinating reading.

https://www.statelytrains.com/vintage-railway-carriages-cinderellas-or-saviours.shtml#balmoral

- one of their projects was featured on this TV series https://www.channel4.com/programmes/great-rail-restorations-with-peter-snow/on-demand/65794-004

Edited May 1, 2021 by MPR

[Ian Smeeton]

I think that any connection, however tenuous to the Titanic, can only be a 'good thing' in generating the interest, money and wherewithal to get these two coaches restored.

 

Otherwise, they will rot where they are, or will rot somewhere else.

 

Or worse, if not moved from their current home, will be scrapped.

 

Regards

 

Ian

[corneliuslundie]

I contacted the HMRS LSWR Steward when I saw the news item. He responded:

"Thanks for this - I have been contacted by the Titanic Society to attempt to verify their claims. Whilst I cannot be sure, there were 19 such vehicles that could have ferried passengers to the ship, and any one of them might have been formed in the trains. The coaches were on the Mid-Hants line in the 1970s."

I think that the vehicles with the best chance of survival seem to be where there is a group involved, such as the Barry Railway Carriage Trust which has at least one vehicle on the SVR and others elsewhere (https://www.facebook.com/BarryRailwayCarriageTrust/). There are other examples. There have been some very nice restorations of pre-grouping stock - at least one GNR vehicle on the SVR, for example. But the amount of work is not to be underestimated. I don't think I would be in very good condition if I had spent half a century in a field under a tarpaulin.

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

52 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

But the amount of work is not to be underestimated.

 

Indeed, for restoration to c. 1912 condition, there's not just replacement of rotten timbers but recreation of the clerestory roof and, of course, the interior. A full restoration to an operational vehicle would include just a token amount of original material. Compare, for instance, the Lynton & Barnstaple's carriages. Each successive carriage has included less original material than the one before, to the point that their East Group will be moving on to building completely new replica carriages - all with a clear operational purpose. Having been on a Mid-Hants dining cruise some yeas ago (watercress with every course) I can see an operational purpose for these LSWR diners. So there could be a critical mass of interested parties to get something done - if only a feasibility study in the first instance. 

[roythebus1]

I see similar comments on various FB bus groups. Oh look, there's another RT in a forest in France/Califonia/Bolivia...let's go and restore it. Pity that Routemaster is converted to a snack bar..it's criminal... FFs, there's over a thousand RMs still in existence and over 200 RT buses.

 

There's probably very little left that will be useable on these 2 coaches and yes restoration is possible, but at what cost and what time frame? Almost certainly not in my lifetime. Mind you, I've seen and been involved in a small way in some of the 4 wheel coach restorations on the IWSR in the early years as well as the Ryde Pier Tram replica, which will contain about 2% original parts!

 

I'd say it's a very tenuous link to the Titanic, but a good marketing ploy, much as my friend's RT bus has done over a million miles and appeared in "Summer Holiday".

 

With some of these projects it's a case of remove door handles, fit new body. Like GKE68, a prewar Bristol bus. I got the job of restoring it professionally. I ended up making virtually a complete new body. The only original parts are the front and rear roof domes, front and rear bulkheads, the cab side and seat frames.  All the rest is new build. The best part of it was the chassis. And £260k later it still isn't finished.

Edited May 1, 2021 by roythebus1

[Northmoor]

4 hours ago, Grizz said:

Point taken...retracted..apologies.

 

However as I am sure you know preserved railways are not immune from prosecution under uk law. I have seen first hand such coaches and wagons deteriorate to such an extent that parts such as doors fall out of coaches, sides fall off wagons, floors collapse, roofs collapse. Structural items such as sole bars with less than 50% of the steel left. Bowed coach sides and partially collapsed roofs with body sides completed detached from the under frames. Many of these vehicles have sat deteriorating since arrival...30-40 years before. Many are so structurally unsound that they can’t be shunted or even safely entered into. Not all railways are like this though.

Because there hasn’t been an injury doesn’t mean there won’t be one. If someone (a volunteer or paid member of staff) were to be injured and present themselves to a hospital then the conversation would likely go..”where did this happen....ah yes XXXX Preserved Railway PLC” ...this is a notifiable accident under H&S at Work Act 1974. Times have changed, some people have not.  I am all for having dreams but there has to be cold hard reality. Where will the dreamers be when it is time to face the music? Their very pet projects may well end up being sold to pay for fines etc. 

 

Looking at it from a slightly different angle, why do vehicles in such a state need to be on a railway? If they are precious and irreplaceable then they should be placed into storage, however this need not necessarily be at a railway. They are not an operational vehicles until they are deemed safe to use. Aircraft and road vehicles are often stored and restored in locations away from the location where they will finally be based. But this costs money and if no one has had to pay anything for dumping their pet project in a siding for 30 years then why would they change their behaviour? No motivation to do anything. 

 

Worse still trespassing is unfortunately not treated as a crime so were someone to climb on a hulk and become injured the Operation Railway PLC would ultimately end up liable for someone’s failed dream. 
 

Totally take your point on dreams...what would we have lost from the past if someone hadn’t dared to dream. Right now I am dreaming of a full cooked breakfast, hopefully it will be become reality in about 10 minutes.
 

 

I tend to agree, but don't actually want these characters to be sued or prosecuted.  I would like a few of them to be firmly invited to stay away from some preservation sites though.  What tends to happen with these dreamers is they are already involved as a regular volunteer at a preserved line.  They have a particular interest in specific types of (usually unfashionable) locos and rolling stock, manage to buy an example when the price of scrap is particularly low and are allowed to keep it at "their" railway, with no written agreement and even less plan for restoration. 

 

Five years pass with no progress, although they may have forked out for a tarpaulin.  Just when you think they have a bit of time and money for restoration of "their project" - they've just moved nearer the site and have a bit of money from the house sale - you find they've bought another project.  They now have two projects, both deteriorating and cannot afford to do anything to either of them.