Exhibition layouts and speed of the trains - do most get it right or not?

[Nearholmer]

By the time you’ve back translated kph at 1:87 into mph at 1:76, it might be quicker to simply measure time over distance using the stopwatch on your phone, and work it out from that.

 

But it does look fun, and fine for H0.

[Nearholmer]

8 hours ago, woodenhead said:

When did it become necessary for locos to stop a few metres from the train it is about to attach to and then move forward slowly to couple up?

Bringing the loco down to nearly a dead stop, if not actually a dead stop, then easing-up, was I’m pretty certain a common practice back into steam days. I’m pretty sure I recall it at Waterloo, right down to the fireman or shunter doing the slow-motion handclap.

 

Likewise joining EMUs at junctions, although there the shunter didn’t need to indicate, because the driver had a good view.

 

It may actually have become less common for a while due to better visibility from diesel and electric locos, before being formalised, or re-formalised, or drummed into trainees.

[MarkSG]

18 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Not only the speeds, but the acceleration rates, and I’m thinking mostly of auto/motor trains when I say that. A tank engine with only one or two coaches could accelerate really nippily.

 

I’d love to see a preserved railway, perhaps the SVR, operate for a day to 1950s timings, but whether current speed restrictions would permit that I don’t know. My expectation is that things would be significantly snappier than typical preservation operations.

 

Most heritage railways have unrealistically lengthy trains, too, at least for a branch line. Which is operationally OK, even with a relatively low-powered loco hauling them, as the low maximum speed means that there's no great demand on the motive power once things are moving. But it means that acceleration rates will inevitably be low, because inertia is the biggest challenge.

 

I've been on an autocoach at the GWSR, and that did shift pretty smartly. But autocoaches and trains consisting of just two or three carriages, despite being a mainstay of branch lines in their operational heydey, are now restricted to special gala days on the heritage railways because they just don't have the capacity for a standard timetable. 

[SamThomas]

Bearing in mind that most model railways are "condensed" then to me the speeds need to be a little higher than "scale" to "look right" - but certainly not at the Hornby Visitor Centre velocity.

 

FWIW Fleischmann used to produce a "Tacowagon" for recording speeds/distances - a simple dvice with a "sort of " stopwatch activated by a reed switch & a tiny magnet on one of the axels.

[SM42]

One thing that does happen when we exhibit is rapid acceleration once off scene to the fiddle yard so that the next move can be set up ready. 

We run quite an intensive timetable and try to keep the gaps between trains down. 

We use the what looks right method for speed out the front. 

It may be a little faster than a "scale,"  speed but it just looks right. 

 

Andy

 

[The Johnster]

Driving a shows is quite often very poor, and the operators seem to think they are driving model cars.  A very noticeable feature of real trains is their inertia and momentum; the models need to look as if they are starting a heavy thing that doesn't want to co-operate, or stopping a heavy thing that, now it has been persuaded to co-operate, doesn't understand why you can't make up your mind...  Scales of 4mm or smaller have less actual mass to move and one has to reproduce this effect when driving them.  I accept that it is sometimes difficult to generate a sufficiently large pool of experienced drivers for club exhibition layouts which are stored between shows and never get the chance to be practiced on.

 

There seem to be two distinct schools of thought at shows; the aforementioned club layout with stabbed rat start, brick wall stops, and insanely high speed through sharp curvarture; looks awful.  The other approach is a reaction to this, often found on finescale layouts, P4 etc., where everything creeps about at snail-racing speed to show how incredibly well and smoothly the locos perform, each move taking about half an hour at incredible precision. 

 

In reality, and I am talking about steam operation now, a big wheeled pacific or 4-6-0 would make a good bit of fuss about getting a heavy train away from rest, while smaller wheeled locos on local or suburban services would just   dig their heels in and go, reaching not far off road speed by the time the rear coach clears the platform.  I can remember 56xx tanks on passenger trains, and they took off like rockets, the g force being noticeable in the coach, as well as the surging giddy-up horsey effect of the big cylinders.  Seriously, 0-40mph in about 10 seconds. 

 

A heavy freight loco will accelerate quite gently from rest as it must allow the couplings to tighten before getting the 'tip' from the guard in the van, then it can pull away a bit more strongly.  Slowing down must also be done with a light touch, as you don't want to kill the guard, well, not all the time anyway.  The bunching up effect of a 60 wagon train and a full service brake application will result in the van colliding with the vehichle in front of it at about 40mph, with little warning for the guard, which is why his seat has shoulder pads and why he is best off sitting in it.

 

Passenger trains will slow down more smartly of course, but you don't want to throw the passengers around the compartments at the very time they are getting their luggage off the racks and getting ready to detrain.  Drivers attempt, not always successfully, to bring the train to a stand on a 'rising brake', that is, with the brakes being released and only rubbing very gently on the wheels at the moment of stopping.  There's a bit of skill in this, because each train has differently adjusted brakes and different amounts of leakage in the system, so you have to feel your way a bit, especially at the first stop of the journey.  Consider that this may be Edinburgh Waverley from KX, or the opposite, with the terminus approached down a steepish bank...

 

Shunting varies.  A marshalling yard with plenty of staff on the ground and a lot of work to get through may send wagons down different roads 'on the fly' with a fairly cavalier approach, evidenced by regular bangs and clouds of coal dust, but propelling into goods sheds where men may be working out of sight of the driver, who is responding to handsignals from someone on the ground, must be done with a good deal of circumspection; snail-racing is actually appropriate here.  When the pickup is shunting a branch terminus yard, chances are the only staff on the ground will be the guard, and matters must take place with regard to his having to walk about the place in order to uncouple, then change hand points, and then be in a postition where the loco crew can see him.  But at the same time, everybody wants to crack on with the job so that they can retire to the cabin for a cuppa/pop over the pub for lunch/get home for tea. 

 

Sidings and yards generally have an overall speed limit of 15mph, top speed of an 08, and any running line turnouts not given speed restrictions are assumed to restricted to 15mph, and the train should not exceed this until the last vehicle has cleared the turnout; the restriction applies to the train, not just the locomotive.  There is no real opportunity these days to observe such operations and gain an impression of the speeds they were carried out at; any goods shunting on a heritage railway is done very slowly in comparison!

 

I assess speed on models by counting chuffs, 4 to a driving wheel revolution, and remembering how the trains sounded back in the day.  Film is the only reference nowadays, and unfortunately for this purpose the sound track is very rarely synchronised correctly to the wheels of the loco in the film.  4 beats per rev for a 2 or 4 cylinder loco, 6 for 3 cylinders, and 8 for Lord Nelson.  The squeeze thinks I'm nuts with my chuff chuff noises, and she may have a point...

 

My layout is a fairly small BLT, and top passenger speed is about 30mph, which looks pretty quick with panniers, 4575s, or 56xx and more stately with large prairies.  My freights and coal trains are all completely unfitted and restricted to 25mph, but rarely go that fast.  Coal trains leaving for the fiddle yard are assumed to need brakes pinning just off-scene, and depart slowly accordingly, with a bit of a flourish as the brake van dissappears under the scenic break bridge.

[F-UnitMad]

43 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

A very noticeable feature of real trains is their inertia and momentum; the models need to look as if they are starting a heavy thing that doesn't want to co-operate, or stopping a heavy thing that, now it has been persuaded to co-operate, doesn't understand why you can't make up your mind... 

Johnster, you have an absolute gift for entertainingly descriptive writing!! Loved this description above!!    

[Siberian Snooper]

When I was shunting on a preserved railway and out of hours, me and the driver had a chat about what needed to happen and then we just got on and did it, definitely no pussyfooting around, tea and pub were calling.

 

When I was a kid and lived near a large goods yard, the shunting proceeded at a rapid pace, at least into the early 60's, I went to sleep counting the chuff, chuffs, before the crashing and banging of buffers.  I learnt later that it was probably an E4 doing the shunting. 

 

When dad took me up to London for the Easter show, we always went up on the "slow " and at Gatwick, the train would stop just short of the portion already in the platform, whilst the passengers alighted, but more likely dashing to the front, it  was compartment stock, at least in the middle 60's.

 

 

[The Johnster]

I had a cab ride with a Hereford driver on a Hereford-BNS as far as Kidderminster back in the 80s (he remembered me from my Canton days), on a 117 in good nick.  We reached the end of the platform at Malvern LInk, admittedly uphill, at 70mph and came to a stand opposite the shelter, absolutely smoothly.  This was a masterful performance, and had the benefit of the very good dual pipe vacuum system fitted to 1st generation dmus, that could be blown off in a second and was very controllable, but it shows what could be and often was done.  The absolute rule to obey when driving model trains is to do everything smoothly; imagine that there's an inspector in the restaurant car with a penny balanced on it's edge on the table and an over full coffee cup.

 

As has been pointed out, our layouts are compressed even when they are of prototypical locations, and thus it is sometimes necessary to condense the time that should be allowed for accelleration to and braking from the speed at which the trains dissappear behind the scenic break or appear from the fiddle.  But smoothness, and accellerarion and braking at reasonable rates avoiding stabbed rat starts and brick wall stops, will cover a multitude of sins. 

 

Matters are much better than they used to was, and we are asking a lot of our RTR mechs to start and stop smoothly under load.  This is where practice is valuable, as the operators familiarise themselves with each loco's and each train's foibles and peculiarities.  Back in the day it was normal for an RTR loco to be able to run at a scale 150 or 200mph, but be uncontrollable below a scale 30 or so; one might excuse a degree of poor driving in these circumstances, but those days are gone and one would hope to see better understanding of how trains actually run these days. 

 

Go to your local station with some sarnies and a flask of something and learn how trains accellerate and brake, how the wheel beats sound over  the joints, and how quickly this happens as the train passes your viewpoint.  Perhaps record some on your phone.  Then, using a marker on the side of your track, try to match this performance with your models.  A little practice will soon give you a ballpark feel for things, and you will enjoy the operating session more because you are more intimately invovled in it (do not, however, google 'enjoying intimate sessions' unless you are prepared for the consequences).

 

9 hours ago, F-UnitMad said:

Johnster, you have an absolute gift for entertainingly descriptive writing!! Loved this description above!!    

 

Why, thank you, sir, that is very kind of you...

[BR60103]

I was recently trying to beat a train on my layout down to the controller and started to wonder what speed it night be doing.

Assuming a walking speed of 4 mph (eases the calculations) and OO scale about 1:76, this makes 304 smph.

In O it would be 172 smph.

 

I will not do N or G.

And if you have to run to catch a live steamer...

About 60 years ago, Model Railroader measured the top speeds of a number of locomotives. The winner was the Athearn Hustler (4 wheel diesel, rubber band drive) at 400 smph.

 

[Dublodad]

I have a "Black Cat" speed wagon, the speed readings are not stable and not really useful. I did use the distance output to measure the length of a circuit of the model railway at Holt on the NNR. This scaled at close to 0.75 miles. This was then used to create a speed chart for time per circuit, which I used to run the trains.

Freight trains at 20 - 25 MPH

Passenger trains at 60 - 70 MPH

Look good to me.

[The Johnster]

About right, but you might consider an express goods at 40-50mph.  I am assuming that this layout, with which I am not familiar, does not have starting and stopping, but hope that this is done smoothly and realistically if it does!

 

[westernviscount]

In my experience most DCC layouts seem to be operated at a tediously slow pace. "Express" trains often seem to crawl along and some shunting can be painfully slow. Is this a limit of the system? 

 

What is most jarring is the overly fast hooking on and moving off which I think is a sign of frustration or boredom of the operator.

 

Some exhibitors might underestimate their audience's attention span by rattling through movements or lack faith in their layouts ability to hold attention without continual movement. Most of the time real railways have little movement and most people who go to exhibitions are real railway enthusiasts so I dont understand what the panic is

[melmerby]

On 20/10/2021 at 11:34, SamThomas said:

 

 

FWIW Fleischmann used to produce a "Tacowagon" for recording speeds/distances - a simple dvice with a "sort of " stopwatch activated by a reed switch & a tiny magnet on one of the axels.

If you go onto Rudy Boer's model railway site there is an Arduino based speed measurer which is easy, cheap to build & calibrate.

[Michael Hodgson]

48 minutes ago, westernviscount said:

Some exhibitors might underestimate their audience's attention span by rattling through movements or lack faith in their layouts ability to hold attention without continual movement. Most of the time real railways have little movement and most people who go to exhibitions are real railway enthusiasts so I dont understand what the panic is

That's only true of the big shows.  The hundreds of little shows in school or parish halls by local clubs are visited by the general public, who do indeed have a short attention span when it comes to layouts where there's nowt happening.

[jcm@gwr]

On 20/10/2021 at 11:34, SamThomas said:

 

FWIW Fleischmann used to produce a "Tacowagon" for recording speeds/distances - a simple dvice with a "sort of " stopwatch activated by a reed switch & a tiny magnet on one of the axels.

 

And there is a Messwagon, by Piko (I believe), Gaugemaster have listed it, but I could only

find it by part number and I can't find the original source at the moment.

Also, it won't be accurate for 00, only H0, and I seem to remember it was over £200!

[PaulRhB]

2 hours ago, westernviscount said:

In my experience most DCC layouts seem to be operated at a tediously slow pace. "Express" trains often seem to crawl along and some shunting can be painfully slow. Is this a limit of the system? 
 

No  it works like any other controller the operator decides the speed. 

 

2 hours ago, westernviscount said:

What is most jarring is the overly fast hooking on and moving off which I think is a sign of frustration or boredom of the operator.
 

Well an unfitted train would move off fairly fast as you just hooked on. Trains with screw couplings and brake hoses to attach don’t give a clue as to why they are waiting on a model as there’s no little shunter figure in action. It may be in the operators mind but at a show the audience can’t see that  

 

2 hours ago, westernviscount said:

Most of the time real railways have little movement and most people who go to exhibitions are real railway enthusiasts so I dont understand what the panic is

That depends on the station or yard really, a busy station will have multiple movements going on at once with quiet spells too but the ratio varies considerably on location. We have three through platforms at work and a bay plus various moves on and off the depot reception plus the sidings. It’s not unusual to have several trains moving in station limits today and there used to be a large yard to the east and west in steam days. 
Even a branch line station may be fairly busy during a shunt or crossing of trains and then revert to tranquility. You can sit and admire your handiwork at home without a train but is there enough to engage the viewer at a show? As we see in many show topics a vociferous group like to see action all the time so it really comes down to who you cater for, you can probably tell by how fast people move on if nothing moves. 
Would accurately modelling a real timetable be that entertaining at a show? I run my narrow gauge line at home much like a real timetable, running a train and shunting it at the destination but then having a break and coming back to it later to run a return working. The line is obviously much shorter with less stations than reality but I wouldn’t just sit and watch it during the gaps in service, I have lunch or do some other jobs. I wouldn’t run it like that at a show though as I perceive the majority are interested in the trains more than the scenery from observing the crowd so I edit out the big gaps. 
I think of it like a film or theatre where you condense ‘the story’ into a shorter period to keep the audiences attention. 

[njee20]

9 hours ago, westernviscount said:

Some exhibitors might underestimate their audience's attention span by rattling through movements or lack faith in their layouts ability to hold attention without continual movement. Most of the time real railways have little movement and most people who go to exhibitions are real railway enthusiasts so I dont understand what the panic is

Meh, I want to see trains moving. No issue with shunting, and some layouts can bear scrutiny for hours whilst the imaginary 1/76 scale driver goes and has a cup of tea and chats with his mate the shunter for an hour, but most don’t. This forum is not representative of the attendees of shows IMO. 

[w124bob]

On 19/10/2021 at 12:28, woodenhead said:

When did it become necessary for locos to stop a few metres from the train it is about to attach to and then move forward slowly to couple up?

 

I remember that a loco would move straight onto the train and stop smartly so that there was little movement, and then just to be sure a second push to make sure the buffers were tight together.

 

Was actually watching a recording of class 86s doing just that at the end of the 1980s/start of the 90s at Euston last night - so when did it change?

I think the simple answer to that is that is the correct way , stop short and then move up, it's how I was taught. The fact is  we didn't do it and simply buffered up and 99% of the time there was no traction inspector round. What has changed is data recorders and forward facing cameras, many of these can be viewed by those with the right password in realtime (XC Voyagers in my case)

[westernviscount]

6 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

Well an unfitted train would move off fairly fast as you just hooked on.

Very true but instantaneous movement defies physics to the point that might confuse even the least railway minded audience. 

 

7 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

Would accurately modelling a real timetable be that entertaining at a show?

Probably not but i don't think anyone has proposed that. If you found a piece of track anywhere in Britain the time it spends empty outweighs the time it is used by many factors. This does not mean I suggest an hour or more of no movement. I simply suggest that audiences can bare less "action" and can understand why. The child waiting for the train to storm out of the tunnel is a lot to do with anticipation as well as gratification. Don't underestimate your audience wherever you may be exhibiting and however young. 

 

40 minutes ago, njee20 said:

Meh, I want to see trains moving.

Or perhaps dont underestimate everyone ;-) 

 

6 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

No  it works like any other controller the operator decides the speed. 

I just thought there might be a difference in power draw, perhaps with sound and lights and the amount of movement of multiple locos at once...but thank you professor for your illuminating explanation. :-0

[njee20]

1 minute ago, westernviscount said:

Very true but instantaneous movement defies physics to the point that might confuse even the least railway minded audience. 

 

 

C’mon, seriously? I’ve never seen people leaving shows with their head in their hands muttering “I don’t understand, I thought trains had to abide by the laws of physics, but now I’m not so sure…”. 

[Phil Parker]

17 minutes ago, westernviscount said:

Or perhaps dont underestimate everyone ;-) 

 

There speaks someone who has never had a punter turn up in front of his layout and 2 seconds later exclaim "Nothings moving!" before hurrying off. It happens all the time - and judging by the number of "nothing moving" posts on here after shows, even enthusiasts want to see trains move.

 

Oddly, the same layout holds normal people because they like looking at the detail.

[westernviscount]

9 minutes ago, njee20 said:

C’mon, seriously? I’ve never seen people leaving shows with their head in their hands muttering “I don’t understand, I thought trains had to abide by the laws of physics, but now I’m not so sure…”. 

No, in my experience niether have I. But I did not invent the fictional person leaving the show to illustrate my point. Personally I vote with my feet and move on to something else.  

 

The greatest offence does seem to be felt when operators are trying to demonstrate a real railway. I am puzzled why. 

[PaulRhB]

10 minutes ago, westernviscount said:

Probably not but i don't think anyone has proposed that. If you found a piece of track anywhere in Britain the time it spends empty outweighs the time it is used by many factors.

On a plain line possibly but by far the majority of models are of stations and yards where activity is concentrated. You were talking about shunting etc and that’s the examples I defined in talking about station working. 
 

12 minutes ago, westernviscount said:

Very true but instantaneous movement defies physics to the point that might confuse even the least railway minded audience. 

Defies physics? It’s just transfer of energy, if the proportion of mass was equal to the real items you’d see more effect on the loco but as locos are filled with solid metal weights vs mostly thin  plastic in stock it’s all a bit skewed to allow them to climb somewhat optimistic gradients.  I doubt any model loco has ever actually defied physics  

I agree hitting a wagon while moving and just carrying on is unrealistic though but that’s again more about the operators observation of real working much like the use of the controller. 

I’ve watched back video of one of my layouts and realised we were running far too fast and I think it’s to do with the angle we look at over the backscene. Much like a helicopter view the trains seem to be going slower as we are unfamiliar with that viewpoint so we speed them up.  Watching from the front though you tend to have a more limited field of view and can see the wheels and motion etc so it looks more like the view we are used to. You can then get into the whole front and rear operating position debate 
 

[westernviscount]

7 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

There speaks someone who has never had a punter turn up in front of his layout and 2 seconds later exclaim "Nothings moving!" before hurrying off. It happens all the time - and judging by the number of "nothing moving" posts on here after shows, even enthusiasts want to see trains move.

 

Oddly, the same layout holds normal people because they like looking at the detail.

 

Yes Phil it does sound that way but believe me, I have experienced this. Always a grown up!!

 

I am generally unmoved by it but I can see why it causes annoyance. 

 

As the exhibitor of a very small, br blue diesels layout I have made my peace that most folk may well not be interested. What I dont understand is why it might cause irritation! 

Edited October 24, 2021 by westernviscount