Mixed doubles - the most unlikely pairings pre-1968

[38c]

How about a Hall 6979 and a King Arthur in to Nottingham Victoria on the GC in the 1950s.

 

Regards Dave

[pH]

There were also quite often steam/diesel pairings around at that time.

Steam/diesel pairs weren't too unusual in winter, when the diesels' steam heat boilers were not very reliable. In those cases, the steam engine was just along to supply the heating and would be coupled inside the diesel. Stationmaster (above) has said that the change to having the diesel in the lead in this kind of combination was to avoid coal falling off the tender hitting the diesel. In addition to that, I read that water overflow on troughs had been a problem, and also diesels did not like to have to ingest cinders!

[melmerby]

The Heysham Neville Hill train was heavily loaded and was usually double headed with 9F's then the 9F Class 25 combination then a pair of 25's as modernisation oved on.

 

Jamie

 

A pair of 25's would have been a bit down on power compared to two 9F's surely?

 

Keith

[t-b-g]

How about an N5 and an A4 double heading a passenger train? I recall seeing some photos taken at Rotherham during some appaling weather, with very deep water around, probably in the 1950s. Nowadays they wouldn't even try to run anything in such conditions as the electric gear in the ground (and some way above it!) would be very wet and quite unsafe!The ECML trains were being diverted and the N5 was added as a pilot loco.

[micknich2003]

The strangest combination I saw was two ex Western Hydraulic 0-6-0's and a WD 2-8-0, the diesels were both manned as the could not work in multiple and were of course leading. Six men to work one train, not very economical. This was at Hull Botanic Gardens early summer 1967. Mick Nicholson.

[melmerby]

How about mixed doubles at the rear of a train?

 

There is the famous occasion when a pair of 9F's leading a freight up the Lickey incline stalled and were being banked by 69999, which also could not cope so 58100 (Big Bertha) was put on the back as well. I can't recall whether they were also some 0-6-0T's involved as well.

 

The picture I saw seem to show nearly as many loco wheels as wagon wheels!

 

 

Keith

[Forester]

It's a common mistake to think that most double-headers in the steam era were the result of a need for more power.

Except in areas with difficult gradients, they were more often simply a way of getting an out-of-place loco back home. Therefore unusual combinations were really quite common, although often they escaped the camera lens (especially mine!) as they were unexpected and time was lost trying to make out from a distance what was coming rather than getting the camera out and recording it!

[Edge]

How about mixed doubles at the rear of a train?

 

There is the famous occasion when a pair of 9F's leading a freight up the Lickey incline stalled and were being banked by 69999, which also could not cope so 58100 (Big Bertha) was put on the back as well. I can't recall whether they were also some 0-6-0T's involved as well.

 

The picture I saw seem to show nearly as many loco wheels as wagon wheels!

 

 

Keith

 

There is another one showing an oil train in the winter in the lickey hills, with no less than two 9fs leading and four panniers banking! Would like to have seen that...

 

Another unlikely pairing that I remember seeing was a pic of the 'Pines Express' on the S&DJR. A 'Battle of Britain' was being piloted by a Jinty, which actually carried the train headboard! Perhaps the most prestigious moment in the history of the Jinties

[scots region]

does anyone know if an A3 ever piloted an A4 on a turn into Waverley?

 

 

[bike2steam]

A WD hauling a Woodhead electric loco to Crewe works over Stockport viaduct.

[jonny777]

How about mixed doubles at the rear of a train?

 

There is the famous occasion when a pair of 9F's leading a freight up the Lickey incline stalled and were being banked by 69999, which also could not cope so 58100 (Big Bertha) was put on the back as well. I can't recall whether they were also some 0-6-0T's involved as well.

 

The picture I saw seem to show nearly as many loco wheels as wagon wheels!

 

 

Keith

 

 

This seems to be turning into something of a round-robin with exagerrated changes each time it comes up; especially with 9Fs *and* the ex-LNER Garratt involved.

 

The only photo of this event that I know of was taken by P Ransome-Wallis, and shows the rear of the train with only one wagon and a brake van in shot, plus the two banking engines 69999 and 58100. There may be others, but I cant find any reference to them.

 

The true story is that the train engine was 47972 an ex-LMS Garratt and the year of the photo was 1949 which seems to conclusively preclude the 9Fs. There were no 0-6-0Ts involved either, and the photographer remarked that there were 14 cylinders on the locomotives for 42 wagons on the train.

[pete_mcfarlane]

I've seen a photo of a Newhaven boat train worked by a Class 71 electric and a Standard 5 - the Std 5 was mainly to provide steam heat for the coaches (these trains were normally worked by the steam heat class 70 electrics).

 

There were also some 4-CEP + 73/0 hauled trains on the Southern (with the EMU leading and the 73/0 activating the train vacuum brakes in sync with the EMU brakes).

[scots region]

How about the worst pairing imaginable, Class 21 and a class 28?

[Clagmeister]

In the 60's the regular Newcastle(scotswood sidings) to Manchester (red bank) could have any pairing on the front from York. I have seen a picture of a Black Five and a Bongo. I wonder what other combinations there were?

 

Claggy

[Coach bogie]

A few more for your thread

 

6015 King Richard III piloting City of Truro up Dainton 12/9/57

 

5915 Trentham Hall piloting 46237 City of Bristol Totnes 18/5/55

 

Prairie 4179 piloting 34033 Chard up Dainton 26/6/59

 

Hmm, it was a bit complicated, and not quite as restrictive, as that. Generally, except when assisting a 'King', any 4-4-0 or 4-6-0 could be coupled in front of the train engine.

 

 

I have seen this rule in one of my Grandfathers rule books from his driving days. Clearly control chose to disregard it. The recent Norman Lockett collection book has several shots of Kings with Bulldogs up front.

 

The gem with Kings is 6001 + 6014 running side by side with 6017 + 6005 to test bridges on the newly widened Birmingham lines

 

Interesting topic

 

Mike Wiltshire

[barryowen]

Back in 66 or 67, I was hauled from Manchester Exchange to Leeds (on a Lpool - Newc) behind a Sulzer type 4, inside which was coupled a Caprotti standard 5 to provide heating. The 5 was the Exchange pilot and was very low on water when it got to Leeds!

[melmerby]

Back in 66 or 67, I was hauled from Manchester Exchange to Leeds (on a Lpool - Newc) behind a Sulzer type 4, inside which was coupled a Caprotti standard 5 to provide heating. The 5 was the Exchange pilot and was very low on water when it got to Leeds!

 

On the ex GWR lines the kettle was normally used for the assisting power, not just as a heater!

The occasions I saw steam + diesel, always with the steam on front, were in the summer in Cornwall.

From what I can recall, a Hall or Grange in front of a Warship or a pair of D6300s wasn't unusual during the steam/diesel changeover period.

 

Keith

[davefrk]

Tried a quick flickr moment and ended up with this ;

 

http://www.flickr.co...N02/4888764788/

 

Not really what i was looking for but worthy of adding to this thread anyway !!

 

Hi, this Ammonia train in the fifties was often doubleheaded over the Wharfedale line through Ilkley. It was usual to see a LNE J39 or two or B16, WD 2-8-0 sometimes combinations of all and eastbound, sometimes a Skipton LMS 4F, 8F or other exLMS engine would be helping the struggling LNE one, it was built a joint MR/NER line afterall.

The oil train refered to in some posts in this period was composed of the old 10,12 ton unfitted tanks like the ones Bachmann did recently in a three pack marked Shell/BP, again mostly doubleheaded with the same combinations as the Ammonia trains.

The Ammonia tanks at this time were the wartime built tanks similar to the old white liveried Hornby Dublo Chlorine tanks we all remember but were a larger diameter tank on the same chassis, these unfitted tanks lasted into the sixties in the WD, MOS and ICI liveries mixed together ad-hock. The photo shows the later vacuum fitted tanks but there are still photos of these tanks doubleheaded by steam.

To be fair though the doubleheading on these unfitted trains was as much to help the braking as assisting the train engine, forty full oil tanks took a lot of stopping.....

How do I know all this? ..... I'm modeling the line and have been building up the stock for it. 35 oil tanks of various types and WDs to haul them. The Ammonia train will be 14 scratchbuilt tanks plus barrier wagons which was around the limit for a J39 so sometimes it might be doubleheaded with anything as mentioned above.

Interesting discussion.

 

Dave Frk.

[Invicta]

It's a common mistake to think that most double-headers in the steam era were the result of a need for more power.

Except in areas with difficult gradients, they were more often simply a way of getting an out-of-place loco back home. Therefore unusual combinations were really quite common, although often they escaped the camera lens (especially mine!) as they were unexpected and time was lost trying to make out from a distance what was coming rather than getting the camera out and recording it!

 

I don't have the book to hand, so am slightly winging this from memory, but an example I've read of this involved summer weekend trains to Margate and Ramsgate in the 30's- the loco from a train terminating at Margate being sent on for coaling etc at Ramsgate as the pilot of the next Ramsgate train in order to save on a light engine move.

IIRC it's mentioned in the book Kent Coast Heyday (Esau & Siviour) and illustrated by a train photographed between Margate and Ramsgate, headed by the impressive combination of a T9, a Schools and a King Arthur...

 

I definitely remember seeing a pic of the combination of a Jinty piloting a Bulleid on the Pines Express mentioned earlier in the thread, though I think the pic I've seen is without the 'Pines' headboard, suggesting that this might not have been a one-off event?

[The Lurker]

I don't have the book to hand, so am slightly winging this from memory, but an example I've read of this involved summer weekend trains to Margate and Ramsgate in the 30's- the loco from a train terminating at Margate being sent on for coaling etc at Ramsgate as the pilot of the next Ramsgate train in order to save on a light engine move.

IIRC it's mentioned in the book Kent Coast Heyday (Esau & Siviour) and illustrated by a train photographed between Margate and Ramsgate, headed by the impressive combination of a T9, a Schools and a King Arthur...

 

I have a copy of the photo you referred to in a book by P Ransome-Wallis called, I think, "Southern Album". I was given it for my 3rd birthday, a long time ago!

[z7o]

i remember an EE type 4 and a B1 on a parcells once, cant recall were

[pH]

Going back to the situation described in the OP, of unusual pairings running 'light engine', a Super D from Preston shed once hauled a defective 'Clan' Pacific from there back to the Clan's home shed of Polmadie. (Source - 'Trains Illustrated' for October 1961)

[Poor Old Bruce]

One was of "clan" 72006 coupled to an unidentified "flat tendered" Hall at Chester.

 

I must have missed this thread at the time but such a pairing occurred on an enthusiast special in March 1963 when 72008 worked from Leeds(?) to Tyseley (I got on at Derby), then piloted by 7929 Tyseley to Crewe via Wolverhampton, Wellington and Market Drayton to visit the works. 72008 then worked solo back to Derby via the North Staffs and back to its starting point

[Mallard60022]

On the ex GWR lines the kettle was normally used for the assisting power, not just as a heater!

The occasions I saw steam + diesel, always with the steam on front, were in the summer in Cornwall.

From what I can recall, a Hall or Grange in front of a Warship or a pair of D6300s wasn't unusual during the steam/diesel changeover period.

 

Keith

 

All sorts of odds and ends used to turn up in Plymouth in the Summer hols, especially Saturdays.

Two loco's being required to heave the overloaded holiday extras and 'extended' service trains over the Devon banks meant the controls were scratching around for loco's; sometimes anything that would run would do including 28XX and 38XX working with Castles and big 2.6.2. tanks. I think the additional loco's used to be added at Newton Abbot and maybe Exeter? However, quite unusual loco's would be the train engine anyway due to motive power shortages. Then, quite often it was all change again at North Road as several classes were not allowed into Cornwall due to weight restrictions I think. Cornwall was Grange & Hall heaven.

Laira could be a very busy place on summer Saturday evenings and Sundays with loco's lined up back out onto the relief lines east of the shed waiting to be coaled. Friary meanwhile was like a little backwater depot (until it closed of course and then the SR loco's had to fight for space at 83D!

Newton Abbot was also interesting I was told, as 'strange' power turned up on the Torquay, Paignton, Goodrington & Kingsbridge trains. I think even Midland loco's on occasion as Bristol just didn't have enough engines (although this was only 'spotters' stories so may well have been bull s**t?)

When the Warships first appeared steam/diesel double heading continued with the steam loco often leading, until the 'ingesting' of ash etc. mentioned above meant that the diesels went up front. As the 'new diesels' were quite unreliable it was often the case that what appeared to be really run down steam would be substituted (but they may well have been just filthy not mechanically past it).

 

Thanks for setting this post. It has stirred some very evocative memories for me but sadly restricted to Plymouth and area. But there was some interest just up the road at Exeter Central where ballast trains from Meldon often had four engines for the short blast up the bank from St David's. 3 Zs and an N made quite a show I seem to remember (N + Z at front with two Zs at rear).

P @ 36E (ex 83D)

[Poor Old Bruce]

Another odd one seen at Derby in the winter of 1963 was a Peak coming in off the West Road with an Ivatt 2MT 2-6-0 coupled inside, presumably for heating.