Kernow Adams O2

[PaulRhB]

2103 states it is push pull fitted if you go to its page but 2105 doesn't so I'd assume not

[chris45lsw]

One obvious omission from this CAD is the centre rib on the cab roof.

 

Some comments on older postings on this topic:-

 

1.  Yes the SR used more than one size of air pump - this was discussed on the Southern email Group a while ago.

 

2.  The one time Wadebridge loco, 30203, had a Drummond style boiler from April 1946 until it was withdrawn Dec 1955.  30193 which Kernow are doing with the early BR emblem had a Drummond style fitted in June 1958 when it also gained the later crest.  But it was faulty & it reverted to an Adams boiler in August 1958!

 

3.  O2s reigned at Wadebridge for the Padstow - Bodmin North service until 1960 when they were replaced by 57xx panniers 4666 & 4694.  Even so, to my surprise, I found O2 30199 in Wadebridge shed in August 1961 as spare engine.  More annoying I had to put up with 4694 on my train to Bodmin N. but I've seen a photo of 30199 in use in Sept 1961!  The crews did not like the 57xx's so Ivatt class '2' tanks replaced them in 1962 and they lasted until June 1964 when the railbus shuttle was introduced between Boscarne Junc & Bodmin N.

 

4.  The reason P&P M7s had their pumps on the right and O2s on the left is because they were on the fireman's side, and M7s were left hand drive; the O2s right hand. 

 

Chris45lsw

Is the hose behind the coupler what you are looking for?

 

attachment=269272:K2105a_zpsf62c8ada.jpg]

K2105b_zpsc24e65db.jpg

K2105c_zps9e072b2f.jpg

[Gwiwer]

As these are CADs for approval any significant errors should be referred to Kernow MRC for attention.  I note comments about the centre roof rib and FWIW the combination of boiler and number on one release.  We want the locos to be the best possible model at a reasonable price and here we have a chance for input into the process.  Kernow MRC staff do read and may even contribute to this site but we can't expect them to monitor every thread.  An email should be enough to alert them.

[tender]

With regard to the allocation of Westinghouse motor-gear to the O2 fleet, Bradley states that numbers 182, 183, 187, 207, and 225 were so fitted between 1931 and1933. Number 183 had the fittings removed in 1956, and 225 in 1949. The others retained the gear until normal withdrawal.

 

PB

If that's the case and Kernow K2105 O2 225 in Southern Black livery is not fitted does it somewhat limit it use to 1949/50?

Am I correct in thinking this or am I missing something?

[Graham_Muz]

I have the full 3D CAD files and will be reviewing and advising any comments to Kernow later this week. Any corrections picked up on this thread will be checked and taken into account also, as there are a number of things that we know already needs correction.

 

With respect to 225 whilst in Southern Black livery it was indeed Pull Push fitted (the gear was removed in 1949) and this has been advised to Kernow already and will be taken into account on the final model.

[tender]

With respect to 225 whilst in Southern Black livery it was indeed Pull Push fitted (the gear was removed in 1949) and this has been advised to Kernow already and will be taken into account on the final model.

Graham, many thanks for clarifying the position with respect to 225, excellent news.

[mvrnut]

Thanks Graham for all the work that you put into these projects with Kernow. It is appreciated by me and many others I am sure. So hopefully then we will see 225 in Southern black with pull-push equipment fitted.

 Now for a question, I and maybe others would love a lined Maunsell green version. Are there any plans ?

 

 Cheers,

   Chris

[Dogmatix]

Looks like the NEM pockets are fixed to the chassis (front) / pony truck (back), so useless for close-coupling. Both couplers shown stick out ridiculously far.  I just don't understand that with such attention to detail, British modellers are still happy to use Tri-Ang age coupling. 

 

Working, reliable close-coupling can be done. It has been the norm across the Channel for thirty years, for goodness' sake. Just look to Roco and Fleischmann and others. If they can do it, why can't British brands?

Edited April 14, 2013 by Dogmatix

[autocoach]

You can

 

Looks like the NEM pockets are fixed to the chassis (front) / pony truck (back), so useless for close-coupling. Both couplers shown stick out ridiculously far.  I just don't understand that with such attention to detail, British modellers are still happy to use Tri-Ang age coupling. 

 

Working, reliable close-coupling can be done. It has been the norm across the Channel for thirty years, for goodness' sake. Just look to Roco and Fleischmann and others. If they can do it, why can't British brands?

You can always change to Roco, Fleischmann or Kadee. They all have couplers that use the NEM pocket to make your change simple. The Triang even in it's new small format is a public domain coupler so the manufacturer does not have to pay royalties for another company's patented product. Shades of the old US X2F (often called the NMRA copler) which plagued US modellers for 30 years until the Kadee patent expired. From my experience a short NEM Kadee #17 in an NEM pocket on the BWT requires sprung buffers on the adjoining wagons or coaches with good height match. That is usually close enough.

Edited April 14, 2013 by autocoach

[Oldddudders]

Looks like the NEM pockets are fixed to the chassis (front) / pony truck (back), so useless for close-coupling. Both couplers shown stick out ridiculously far.  I just don't understand that with such attention to detail, British modellers are still happy to use Tri-Ang age coupling. 

 

Working, reliable close-coupling can be done. It has been the norm across the Channel for thirty years, for goodness' sake. Just look to Roco and Fleischmann and others. If they can do it, why can't British brands?

The Tri-ang coupling is used because that is what most of the RTR market uses. Kernow wishes to sell its products, so makes them as attractive to as many people as possible. As Ken says, it takes less than a minute to swap it out for a Kadee.  

[Dogmatix]

You can always change to Roco, Fleischmann or Kadee.

 

Not really, no.

 

Close-coupling mechanics require that the coupling heads couple to form a rigid connection, which is what Roco, Fleischmann and other close-coupling heads do. These coupling heads can therefore only be used in NEM pockets which are (ideally) mounted on close-coupling mechanics (which have a centre-sprung cam arrangement to extend in curves to avoid buffer lock) or at least mounted on a pivot (although the close-coupling action is lost here). They cannot be used in NEM pockets which are rigidly mounted, or formed as part of a bogie, which is what appears to be the case here. Only couplers which do not form a rigid connection, such as the various hook-and-bar, knuckle, and buckeye (Kadee) types, can be used in such cases. If such couplers are chosen so as to give close or near-close coupling on the straight, buffer lock will occur on curves (unless your layout only has prototypical radii). That is why, over thirty years ago, close coupling mechanics with rigid couplers were invented - so that modellers could have close-coupling on the straight without buffer lock on tighter-than-prototype curves.

 

Here in the UK, there is a distinct "who needs it" attitude about (or maybe it's an automatic distrust of anything continental). Many recent models have NEM pockets, but only as a means of facilitating coupler replacement. Few models have close-coupling mechanics. Recent EMU models have them inner-unit (often with coupling bars which are too long and thus miss the whole point), but not for multiple unit operation. Bachmann MK1s have them but with pockets out of standard position. Some Horny coaches have them, but again, the pockets are not quite right, so that standard couplers (Roco/Fleischmann) almost, but not quite, meet up. Recent locomotives, upon which so much effort has laudably been spent in design detail, even have rigid pockets, precluding the use of Roco/Fleischmann couplers entirely. And as for as I can tell, hardly any wagons have close-coupling mechanics. And because the brands can't get it quite right, modellers have problems with close-couplers, and blame them for derailments, and have given up.

 

British modellers, for the most part, seem to be quite happy to have large gaps between vehicles. And until the brands start fitting working, reliable close-coupling mechanics to British models as standard and educating modellers in their use, it's likely to stay that way.

 

Anyway, since this is not really a model-specific or brand-specific issue, perhaps a different forum section would be appropriate - though I'm not sure which one.

Edited April 14, 2013 by Dogmatix

[Graham_Muz]

Muz has said that he is taking it forward with Kernow Models. My guess is that we will all be pleased with the outcome! Another smarty point for the Forum.

 

Not quite a smarty point for the forum as the issues of 225 being PP fitted was first raised with Kernow  back in July last year and it appears the amendment to the description on the website has been missed of the list of things to do (and advising the designers too).

[Graham_Muz]

Thanks Graham for all the work that you put into these projects with Kernow. It is appreciated by me and many others I am sure. So hopefully then we will see 225 in Southern black with pull-push equipment fitted.

 Now for a question, I and maybe others would love a lined Maunsell green version. Are there any plans ?

 

 Cheers,

   Chris

 

Chris

 

No official plans as yet, but depending on sales it is on the list of possible future livery variations.

[Miss Prism]

Compare with prototype.

See also A J Reeves sketch. (This is a Terrier chimney, but included to show the compound curve at the base.)

 

Also, should this chimney have the 4 elliptical lightening (lifting?) holes around its top perimeter?

Edited April 15, 2013 by Miss Prism

[Graham_Muz]

Peter

 

I am certainly aware of the side tank repairs carried out by Ryde St John's and the IoW versions have a slide in the tooling to allow for the patch and those without. I have not seen evidence of mainland versions having this style of repair but would welcome any references you can find.

[Bluebell Model Railway]

The image and of the chimney to Cad, its a bit difficult to compare them side by side when the image was taken from the ground, and the second link is of a terrier chimney so will be substancially narrower. Looks ok to me the CAD, having worked on w24.

Yes from what i understand the extra piece of metal placed along the bottom of the tanks was to do with making the bottom stronger... making it less prone to leaking from what i understand... although Calbourne W24 still leaks... Im not sure if thats been fixed as of yet while its been out having its maintance over the winter.

[Miss Prism]

and the second link is of a terrier chimney so will be substancially narrower

 

Yes, I've amended my post above to show the Terrier chimney was referenced to show the compound curves at the base, which I can't see in the Dapol image. These compound curves can be seen from the other prototype pics posted in this thread.

[G-BOAF]

Slightly clearer in this picture

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/W24Calbourne1.JPG

 

The CAD curves at the base of the chimney could do with improvement. Mr Muspratt can you include this in your report?

[Peter Bedding]

Peter

 

I am certainly aware of the side tank repairs carried out by Ryde St John's and the IoW versions have a slide in the tooling to allow for the patch and those without. I have not seen evidence of mainland versions having this style of repair but would welcome any references you can find.

 

Hello Graham,

 

There seems to be plenty of photo evidence that many of the mainland versions were not repaired, but #182 and #183 did get the tank repair. #182 seems to have been fixed whilst still in Maunsell lined olive green livery, and then photographed frequently in Bulleid and BR colours. #183 was far more camera shy, but was snapped in BR days at Bere Alston, and the photo included in Middleton Press "Tavistock to Plymouth", photo number 16. The upper edge of the repair plate just catches the sunlight above the lower paint lining. On the strength of this exercise, it might prove safer to leave this detail off your mainland versions. For those of us who might wish to renumber our purchases, there are other choices besides #182 and #183.

 

Hth

 

PB

[PaulRhB]

Had a quick chat with Chris at the members day and he said realistically it might be early next year before the O2 arrives and yes they are considering a green Southern one now they've found that one did carry the livery with this chimney. If it's as nice as the Beattie then it's worth waiting and obviously he's taking the input from here about details to make it the best he can.

[tender]

I would certainly be interested in a Southern Green one.

[phil-b259]

I would certainly be interested in a Southern Green one.

I expressed similar thoughts while chatting about the O2s at Taunton - especially as one of the versions of the LSWR gate stock is planned to be on lined Maunsell Green.

 

I have to say though that discussing both forthcoming models the most striking thing was the desire to get it 'right' as well as the financial risks the retailer has to take when commissioning such models

[mvrnut]

This is good news, a Southern lined green livery. I definately will be ordering at least one, possibly two.

 

Cheers,

Chris

[phil-b259]

This is good news, a Southern lined green livery. I definately will be ordering at least one, possibly two.

 

Cheers,

Chris

 

Steady on, its not a one deal yet.

 

As I said above Chris already has plenty of special commissions in the pipeline all of which require substantial financial investment even at the initial CAD stage thus any decision to extend the number of variations offered carries a significant risk (e.g. will any Maunsell liveried orders be at the expense of the already announced versions or is the finance available to commission a further batch) - especially as money is not taken until the goods are ready to be dispatched.

 

That said, on the plus side Chris does have photographic evidence (as seen at Taunton) of at least one engine in Maunsell lined green that matches the particular configuration of O2 he is planning to commission (by that I mean chimney, boiler and a host of other bits and bobs which varied on a loco by loco basis are the same as the already announced models). Its this determination for things to be correct that gave us all the different varieties well tank when many modellers would have been happy with just the one.

 

Lets just wait and see what happens over the next 12 months or so - we may be lucky

[Gwiwer]

 

 

I have to say though that discussing both forthcoming models the most striking thing was the desire to get it 'right' as well as the financial risks the retailer has to take when commissioning such models

 

Chris and Kernow MRC's track record (pun coincidental!) have been exemplary in terms of getting things right before any commission reaches the shelves.  The well tanks have already been mentioned.  The same applies to the recently arrived Thumper units (and with that determination for right-ness seeing many of them still many months away), the many china clay wagons and the weathered class 22s.  Upcoming weathered class 52 and all-new D600 types will equally be worth every day of the often lengthy waits knowing that the end result will be as "right" as the scale of modelling and reasonable costs allow.