Mk1 Horsebox

[Downer]

Maybe this should be in the Prototype section, but... in what sort of trains were horse boxes moved? If, for example, owners in Newmarket needed to get half a dozen horses to a racecourse elsewhere in the country, would the boxes be attached to passenger trains, freights trains, or either? Or sent separately?

[mattog]

Some additional info on horse boxes.

 

http://www.semgonline.com/vandw/horseboxes_01.html

[Bazza]

Sorry it's analogue, Bromsgrove Models haven't got to it yet. (DC viz DCC) There's just one 'C' in NPCS.

 

I tempted to expand on that 'C', but time for bed said Zebedee.

Hi there,

 

I think you will find that NPCCS is correct - Non Passenger Carrying Coaching Stock

 

Bazza

[tmc]

I'm sure you know the real thing is in the NRM Annexe at Shildon? If not is this any help? (Can I have one on order for being helpful ?)

Phil @36E

 

Hi Phil,

 

Many thanks for your help. I've got plenty of pictures of the preserved one it's just other images I'm looking for.

 

Kind regards,

Chris

[tmc]

If you don't have them already, would a set of BR official phots be beneficial?

If the proposed model is to be of original condition my prints may be of use. As you probably know the preserved examples have the later drop door and end strengthener modifications.

I also have a print of the inspection saloon version but I suspect you will not be offering that variation.

 

Cheers,

Porcy

 

Hmm now this sounds interesting We would definitely be interested to see your prints. Please contact me directly sales@tmc-direct.com

 

Yes we are aware of all the modifications and the variants e.g converted ones etc. I'm not sure whether we will be doing the inspection saloon but it certainly hasn't been ruled out.

[tmc]

Some additional info on horse boxes.

 

http://www.semgonlin...seboxes_01.html

 

Thank you very much I'd completely forgotten about the SEMG site and I use it all the time too lol

[jwealleans]

There was an article in the Great Western Journal a few years ago dealing with the movement of one horsebox from Lambourne (? - I think) to Newmarket. What trains it travelled in, where it was attached and detached, etc. Fascinating reading. As Paul says it was generally tail traffic on passenger trains.

 

I have seen them in goods trains, almost certainly being returned empty to wherever they were based.

[mattog]

Thank you very much I'd completely forgotten about the SEMG site and I use it all the time too lol

 

Yes, it's a particularly handy resource, especially when one lives in Australia.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

.. And like would you usually see them coupled to the rear of a passenger express or branch service? Regardless, I'm thinking I'll put in an order today for the SR twin pack.

In case previous answers have not made this clear, in respect of private individuals moving a riding horse on a train from 'anywhere to anywhere'. When actually in use to carry a hayburner for a passenger on the train, they could be attached to literally any suitable passenger train. Depending on the route and the working the box might be between loco and train, or on the tail end. The justification for a horsebox appearing in this way is essentially that there is someone who rides the horse in the box actually on the train. (As already observed the empties had to be worked empty back to depot, and ferried empty to point of loading, and both passenger and goods services were employed.)

 

The way this typically worked as a service, was that the horserider gave notice to the station he intended to arrive at, for provision of a box. (I believe it was always the case that the rider had to be paying a first class fare for their journey, and then the horsebox was a supplementary charge.) Typically the notice required was 24 hours ahead of the planned service departure time; although at major locations with a large established box traffic it was possible to simply turn up and usually get a box put on a suitable service within a couple of hours. In the opinion of someone I know who utilised this service, what killed it off from the perspective of the rider were the increasing number of services from which horsebox traffic was barred. Quite simply a four wheel wagon was already unsuitable for the purposes of maximum express speeds in the 1920s, and increasingly the faster services as the decades passed would not convey horseboxes as a result. Building four wheel horseboxes in the 1950s was a decision right in line with churning out a quarter of a million of obsolete before construction 16 tonners.

 

Not that this makes the model in any way less attractive...

[mattog]

In case previous answers have not made this clear, in respect of private individuals moving a riding horse on a train from 'anywhere to anywhere'. When actually in use to carry a hayburner for a passenger on the train, they could be attached to literally any suitable passenger train. Depending on the route and the working the box might be between loco and train, or on the tail end. The justification for a horsebox appearing in this way is essentially that there is someone who rides the horse in the box actually on the train. (As already observed the empties had to be worked empty back to depot, and ferried empty to point of loading, and both passenger and goods services were employed.)

 

The way this typically worked as a service, was that the horserider gave notice to the station he intended to arrive at, for provision of a box. (I believe it was always the case that the rider had to be paying a first class fare for their journey, and then the horsebox was a supplementary charge.) Typically the notice required was 24 hours ahead of the planned service departure time; although at major locations with a large established box traffic it was possible to simply turn up and usually get a box put on a suitable service within a couple of hours. In the opinion of someone I know who utilised this service, what killed it off from the perspective of the rider were the increasing number of services from which horsebox traffic was barred. Quite simply a four wheel wagon was already unsuitable for the purposes of maximum express speeds in the 1920s, and increasingly the faster services as the decades passed would not convey horseboxes as a result. Building four wheel horseboxes in the 1950s was a decision right in line with churning out a quarter of a million of obsolete before construction 16 tonners.

 

Not that this makes the model in any way less attractive...

 

Yesterday I knew nothing about horse boxes, today I feel like an expert. Thanks for the info.

['CHARD]

Okay, it appears that these vehicles fell out of favour with alarming speed, of 115 (?) built, none lasted in their original traffic after 1970 - is that right? I read that manure played hell with the bodywork, and I assume road haulage played a part in reducing demand.

 

Given that they were a relatively late build, when was the last commercial use for their designed purpose? Seemingly the SR ones at least spent a lot of time conveying horses to Royal and other events during the sixties, but I'd love to know when the use finally dwindled away to nothing, and when the last use for racing purposes was - at Newmarket possibly?

[PhilJ W]

One traffic that was lost to the roads. A combination of Motorway construction and the advent of faster and more sophisticated road horse boxes.

[Bazza]

I remember seeing a long line of horse-boxes at Old Oak Common in 1969 after Prince Charles' Investiture at Caernarfon Castle. They had been used for conveying the military horse contingent. It wasa probably one of the last times these vans were used.

 

Bazza

[Pennine MC]

Previous thread, confirming last (known) uses and dates.

[Porcy Mane]

Hmm now this sounds interesting We would definitely be interested to see your prints.

 

The .jpgs should be with you now. I sent four prints. It took 5 individual e mails as there must be a size limit for e mail attachments on your inbox.

 

Cheers,

Porcy

[Enterprisingwestern]

Sorry it's analogue, Bromsgrove Models haven't got to it yet. (DC viz DCC) There's just one 'C' in NPCS.

 

I tempted to expand on that 'C', but time for bed said Zebedee.

 

Non Passenger Carrying Coaching Stock ?

As a horsebox carries a groom is it non passenger carrying anyway?

[PhilJ W]

It's NPCS, None Passenger Coaching Stock.

[Guest stuartp]

I suspect it's one of those terms that varies over time and company depending on which official document you're reading.

 

The 2001 Rule Book says NPCCS (page 24), no doubt if anyone cares to search they could turn up a reference to NPCS somewhere.

[The Stationmaster]

As a matter of (probably litttle) interest the basic Instruction for accompanied horse traffic was still included in the 1972 reissue of the General Appendix but that could as easily have been a failure to amend it (it formed part of a wider Instruction) as anything else as I'm fairly sure such traffic was as good as totally lost to rail by then apart from which there were very few stations/services around which were still suitable to handle the traffic.

As far as NPCCS is concerned that has long been the official term but it was commonly misquoted/'shorthanded' as NPCS and I can recall seeing one official document (a TOPS guide) where it was misquoted (and duly amended in the following issue).

[Penlan]

....As far as NPCCS is concerned that has long been the official term but it was commonly misquoted/'shorthanded' as NPCS

I admit my interests and info. is based on pre-grouping days when it was NPCS - Non-Passenger Coaching Stock, or at least in the LNWR Circulars I've seen,

so presumably NPCCS is Non-Passenger Coaching and Carriage Stock (or Carriage and Coaching...)

 

Live and learn.

[Pennine MC]

so presumably NPCCS is Non-Passenger Coaching and Carriage Stock (or Carriage and Coaching...)

 

I've always understood it to be 'non passenger-carrying coaching stock', as per Mike's post above

[Guest Max Stafford]

This has got the makings of a potential bar fight!

 

Dave.

[Allegheny1600]

Oh, no- it hasn't!

:lol:

John E.

[Enterprisingwestern]

Pick your bar

[Ed-farms]

Oh, no- it hasn't!

:lol:

John E.

 

Or Pantomimes with quotes like that John