Hornby Saint - how bad was it?

[rovex]

19 hours ago, 88C said:

I have just come across the January 1987 issue of Railway Modeller which happens to have a review of the Saint. Despite what the review says, the photo shows that it was a very poor likeness which probably explains why I never bought one.

 

Brian

Don't think I can recall the Railway Modeller giving a bad review to anything

[Antony Farrell]

To slightly resurrect this;

Wizard list an ex-Comet chassis kit for the Saint, Hall and Hawksworth County, does anyone know what model/maunfacture Saint it was meant to go with? The old Finecast Saint for example? Or the old Hornby model etc. The instructions do not appear to say.

[hayfield]

I guess the answer is both, Comet chassis are designed to represent the loco rather than a conversion kit for a specific make

 

The existing Southeastern Finecast Saint kit is basically the old Wills Finecast kit, which they still supply a whitemetal cast chassis. The original Wills saints were designed to fit a Triang B12 chassis, later being improved with the provision of what wills describes a "special chassis kit" which is the current SEF version. Southeastern Finecast Hall kit is also one of the original style kits with a whitemetal chassis

 

No idea about the Hornby Saints chassis, its an area that I have no knowledge of

[Steamport Southport]

The Comet chassis was originally designed to fit the Replica and Bachmann Modified Hall and Dapol County. I assume it was also suitable for the Hornby Hall.

 

The Hornby Saint chassis was just the last version of the old Hornby Hall. Kneller and Hagley version rather than Albert. The chassis should fit the Hornby Saint no problem. But whether it's worth putting a decent chassis under one is the question.

 

The Finecast kits should be fine. I intend to fit one under mine. 

 

Now if only someone did a model of the straight frame version. The SEF kit is only suitable for Saints and Courts, so unfortunately you can't have any of the interesting names without serious modification.

 

 

 

Jason

[Coach bogie]

Westward produced the straight frame and Atlantic versions that crop up from time to time on eBay.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[JSpencer]

The boiler proportions of the Hornby Saint are so far out that it looks like a completely different type of boiler altogethor when next to a recent Hall (Bachmann or Hornby), Grange or Star. (technically they all carried the same boiler).

I would not bother with the chassis upgrade.

[No Decorum]

It isn’t often I decide against purchasing a model of something I want but Hornby’s Saint was one. If Hornby can produce a Hush Hush in both original and rebuilt form, then possibly Mr. Kohler might look west and tool up for both a Saint and an Atlantic. In all honesty, I’m inclined to think that he’s more likely to look west and north a bit and capitalise on the popularity of the LMS big stuff by producing a Turbomotive. At least there’d be less fuss about the paint!

[Hilux5972]

2 hours ago, No Decorum said:

It isn’t often I decide against purchasing a model of something I want but Hornby’s Saint was one. If Hornby can produce a Hush Hush in both original and rebuilt form, then possibly Mr. Kohler might look west and tool up for both a Saint and an Atlantic. In all honesty, I’m inclined to think that he’s more likely to look west and north a bit and capitalise on the popularity of the LMS big stuff by producing a Turbomotive. At least there’d be less fuss about the paint!

It has been a few years since the GWR took the spotlight. Last couple of years it’s been the LMS with the big Pacific’s, SR with the Original Merchants, now the LNER with the W1 and Thompson A1’s, must be the GWR’s turn next. A new Saint would be amazing, especially to tie in with Didcots amazing rebuild. Equally possible is a new County to again tie in with Didcot. 

[Antony Farrell]

Looks like I can use the Comet chassis to replace the decrepit one sitting under a battered Finecast body which I will disassemble and rebuild. I think I may also have an old Star class, also Finecast kit somewhere in my mountain of old locos. I assume this as I found a comet chassis kit for a Star.

[The Johnster]

If the GW is out of the spotlight, it’s because the coverage of anything that ran after after about 1950 is more or less complete, at least as far as locos are concerned.  The Saint is probably the only major class not represented by a current or announced RTR model to modern standards, and one would not expect there to be much call for the 81xx or Collett 31xx.  And there isn’t much else. Of the big 4, the GW is still more completely ‘covered’ than the other 3, with only the pregrouping absorbed and constituent locos left out. 
 

Some of these were fairly numerous; TVR A class for instance, but geographical spread is against them in the RTR market and they don’t have the ‘pretty little Victorian loco that lasted a long time’ cachet of Adams Radials or Beattie Well tanks, esoterica which survived for specific jobs in very limited areas in very small numbers. 
 

There is a problem as well for the ‘run anything from any period’ layout owner in that ‘all GW locos look the same’, and once he/she has 3 or 4 there isn’t enough variety to keep them buying.  We know better, but I’m sure this looms large in the thinking of marketing departments, and these are the people who probably have the most influence on what gets produced. 
 

 

[Ian Hargrave]

59 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

If the GW is out of the spotlight, it’s because the coverage of anything that ran after after about 1950 is more or less complete, at least as far as locos are concerned.  The Saint is probably the only major class not represented by a current or announced RTR model to modern standards, and one would not expect there to be much call for the 81xx or Collett 31xx.  And there isn’t much else. Of the big 4, the GW is still more completely ‘covered’ than the other 3, with only the pregrouping absorbed and constituent locos left out. 
 

Some of these were fairly numerous; TVR A class for instance, but geographical spread is against them in the RTR market and they don’t have the ‘pretty little Victorian loco that lasted a long time’ cachet of Adams Radials or Beattie Well tanks, esoterica which survived for specific jobs in very limited areas in very small numbers. 
 

There is a problem as well for the ‘run anything from any period’ layout owner in that ‘all GW locos look the same’, and once he/she has 3 or 4 there isn’t enough variety to keep them buying.  We know better, but I’m sure this looms large in the thinking of marketing departments, and these are the people who probably have the most influence on what gets produced. 
 

 

In GW terms there is also the Hawksworth County to be represented in the catalogue to current standards.An initially   unfashionable but ultimately successful workhorse I think.

[The Johnster]

Is the current County lacking in scale or detail; I thought this loco was ‘up to the mark’. 
 

They were liked at Canton as Saint replacements, ideally suited to the banks of the North to West road and the downline work.  

[Ian Hargrave]

44 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Is the current County lacking in scale or detail; I thought this loco was ‘up to the mark’. 
 

They were liked at Canton as Saint replacements, ideally suited to the banks of the North to West road and the downline work.  

 

In dire need of retooling.Nowhere near current standard. Why it hasn’t been done is inexplicable.This and the Saint should be on someone’s list of “to do”.

[hayfield]

This is not meant as any form of criticism at all but a question and perhaps a suggestion

 

Why if someone is wanting to build a Comet chassis with all the associated costs in wheels, motor and Gears/gearbox, are they considering using a Hornby loco as a donor ?

 

Looking at the maths, a s/h Hornby Saint will be £35+ may be £50

 

A new Southeastern Finecast Saint kit is £66

 

If you bide your time they can pop up for much less than RRP on our favorite auction site, unbuilt perhaps for a bit less than new, but ready made ones are cheap and some even come with Romford wheels etc. Southeastern finecast are more than happy to supply missing or broken parts. I often find second hand kits and kit built items extremely good value, and you can resell unwanted items they come with

Edited October 25, 2020 by hayfield

[hayfield]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Wills-Finecast-Star-Class-GWR-unbuilt-model-locomotive-kit/254755549382?hash=item3b509d30c6:g:E54AAOSwvbBfkHgo

 

OK its a Star and not a Saint, has older Romford drivers and plastic tender wheels, but look at the cost savings, Its part built but I guess if you are unhappy at the work done to date so paint stripper will assist dismantling.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Wills-Finecast-GWR-HALL-OO-gauge-Part-built-model-locomotive-kit/254755579546?hash=item3b509da69a:g:fsgAAOSwwwpfkIFx

A Hall cheaper but no drivers

 

Whilst these do not exactly fit the bill, just an example of what's about if you keep your eyes open, if either of these had modern Romford or Markit wheels, it might be an idea to buy then for the wheels and resell the kits (Markit wheels are both expensive and in short supply)

 

[Steamport Southport]

5 hours ago, hayfield said:

This is not meant as any form of criticism at all but a question and perhaps a suggestion

 

Why if someone is wanting to build a Comet chassis with all the associated costs in wheels, motor and Gears/gearbox, are they considering using a Hornby loco as a donor ?

 

Looking at the maths, a s/h Hornby Saint will be £35+ may be £50

 

A new Southeastern Finecast Saint kit is £66

 

If you bide your time they can pop up for much less than RRP on our favorite auction site, unbuilt perhaps for a bit less than new, but ready made ones are cheap and some even come with Romford wheels etc. Southeastern finecast are more than happy to supply missing or broken parts. I often find second hand kits and kit built items extremely good value, and you can resell unwanted items they come with

 

I think the question was what was it designed for. 

 

On 23/10/2020 at 06:50, Antony Farrell said:

To slightly resurrect this;

Wizard list an ex-Comet chassis kit for the Saint, Hall and Hawksworth County, does anyone know what model/maunfacture Saint it was meant to go with? The old Finecast Saint for example? Or the old Hornby model etc. The instructions do not appear to say.

 

Then added to.

 

9 hours ago, Antony Farrell said:

Looks like I can use the Comet chassis to replace the decrepit one sitting under a battered Finecast body which I will disassemble and rebuild. I think I may also have an old Star class, also Finecast kit somewhere in my mountain of old locos. I assume this as I found a comet chassis kit for a Star.

 

So for a Finecast model rather than Hornby.

 

 

 

Jason

[Coach bogie]

My Saint preference is the SEF body (which can be glued if you are not confident to solder), Hornby/Triang B12/Hall rtr chassis (as this is what the SEF body was designed for back in the 1960's), with replacement Romford wheels with the special Hornby size Romford axles, Wizard ex Mainly trains connecting rods. My recent SEF Saints use the cylinder block from the railroad hall as the cross heads and rods are not whitemetal. This also has the advantage of no shorting on tight curves from the bogie wheels as the cylinders are plastic. 

 

If you are really adventurous, cutting back the cab in line with the main running plate is not too big a job, to make one of the few that had a straight cab with curved front end after new cylinders were fitted. 

 

SEF?Wills Saints from various members here.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[railroadbill]

 

Going back to the original question,  I've got a Saint body, undecorated, no fittings, that I bought ages ago from the long gone East Kent models who used to do lots of spares. You can see from the Hornby Hall where the moulding was derived  from.  I think they just altered the Hall moulds?

Now my original idea was to modify the Saint body to build a Star class, put it on a castle chassis or whatever.  It ended up in the "to do one day" box, Hornby came out with their fairly recent Star model and I've got a couple of those. (Excellent runners).

 

 

A friend passed the Hornby Hall onto me recently, he'd been given it and didn't want it.  Of course the Saint body fits straight on.   The Hall looks very old fashioned now compared to a Bachmann or current Hornby one, but it wasn't bad in it's day. So in the same way the Saint is going to look very retro, certainly compared to the Wills/SEF models mentioned earlier in the thread.  Wills/Finecast for a scale model of a Saint, Hornby one for er, a Hornby Saint but still could be fun to do.

 

From hornbyguide.com:

This particular Hall came out in 1978-79.  The  Saint was first released in 1986-87 as 2920 St David, (GWR livery) then 2937 Clevedon Court in BR black in 88,89,91.  Those seem to have been loco drive with large tender.  Then in 1994-95, there was another release as 2918 St Catherine, in GWR green with a small tender with tender drive ringfield motor. The tender drive one was released again in 1997-98 as 2927 St Patrick.

 

With 4 releases in 12 years the Saint must have been reasonably popular, probably a fair amount still around.

 

 

[robmcg]

10 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

 

In dire need of retooling.Nowhere near current standard. Why it hasn’t been done is inexplicable.This and the Saint should be on someone’s list of “to do”.

 

Indeed, 

 

I had a burst of County-itis a few years ago and bought a couple on Ebay, here is one of them, which someone had detailed and weathered. Rather nice I think.  Prototype photo for comparison.

 

 

 

[Ian Hargrave]

Thanks Rob.To prove my point,please look at the rendering of the cab,firebox,chimney and overall lack of presence in conveying the somewhat brutish strength of the boiler. In the third decade of the 21stC we can surely do better.

[Michael Hodgson]

It was the cylinders I noticed first.  Clearances for platforms presumably being a problem for the RTR market

[Steamport Southport]

25 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

It was the cylinders I noticed first.  Clearances for platforms presumably being a problem for the RTR market

 

It was tooled at the same time as the revamped ex Airfix Castle in about 1984.

 

It was too narrow as they used the tender from the "new" castle which was correctly narrower, but they narrowed the rest of the loco as well. If they put the cylinders at correct width it would have looked wrong. A common problem at the time that quite a few models suffered with is they are narrow. Maybe a left over from the narrow track.

 

But it's really an altered Castle body on a Hall chassis. They never made the planned Hall, but that appeared later as the Replica Modified Hall.

 

In reality it should have an 8F boiler. A common improvement was to swap the boiler with a Hornby 8F one and replace the cab. Some places such as Comet and Mainly Trains were actually selling the 8F bodies for that reason.

 

Jackson Evans has a detailing kit if anyone really wants to have a go at detailing one.

 

https://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/products/jedetail/jewestern/jedetail-gwdetail-kits/jew91

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

I see what you mean.  It’s a nice looking model until you see a prototype in a photo, at which point the whole thing looks wrong, and is!  The boiler sits too low, and/or the firebox does not come up to the correct place on the cab front; look at the alignment with the windows.  
 

And/or the cab is too tall.  On the prototype photo, the cab roof/side join aligns with the top of the tender side, and the bottom of the spectacle plate window reveal is below the boiler handrail, but the model’s is level with it.  The number plate should be dead centre of the lined panel, but the model’s is offset a little low, which has the unfortunate effect of making the already overtall cab look even taller. 
 

I’m not convinced by the running plate height either; as the coupling and connecting rods are close enough for jazz to top dead centre in both photos, one would expect the model’s too look closer to the bottom of the running plate because of the angle and the model’s incorrect narrow gauge 00 wheels, but they don’t; the tender wheels show the effect I mean.  The cylinders are wrong presumably for RTR clearance reasons as has been suggested.  
 

All in all a bit of a mish mash that looks a bit like a Hawksworth County from a distance, plenty of detail and a nice finish but I agree this does not cut the current RTR mustard.  Pity.  
 

Not that a person who tolerates a Hornby 2721 and a Limbach 94xx on his layout, not to mention Triang shorty clerestories, K’s whitemetal A31 auto trailers, and a cut’n’shut ersatz Collett non-gangwayed all-third of decidedly dodgy provenance cobbled out of an Airfix B set, and much worse abominations in his past, occupies such rarified levels of modelling high ground is in a position to complain much, you understand!  

[1466]

My favourite day dream . Hornby announce a Saint . They keep the well regarded R3170 Hall ‘s  chassis and tender , add new drivers and pony wheels . A new loco body with clever tooling to make straight and curved frames . Add a dash of Lady of Legend “star” dust and , in my opinion, you have an economical sure fire winner . I’ll buy 2 , one straight one curved frame .

 Ken 

 

[No Decorum]

2 hours ago, 1466 said:

My favourite day dream . Hornby announce a Saint . They keep the well regarded R3170 Hall ‘s  chassis and tender , add new drivers and pony wheels . A new loco body with clever tooling to make straight and curved frames . Add a dash of Lady of Legend “star” dust and , in my opinion, you have an economical sure fire winner . I’ll buy 2 , one straight one curved frame .

 Ken 

 

I’d much rather Hornby did a proper job on the chassis – brass bearings and five-pole, skew-wound motor. As has often been observed, these days, no use is made of parts of previous productions. New toolings start from scratch.