RMweb Gold Stubby47 Posted October 7, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 7, 2011 It's probably a well known fact that just to the north of the Albert Bridge, on the Plymouth side of the Tamar, is a large underground armaments store. What is probably less well know is the railway that served it. Plans have come into my possession ( the source of which I cannot possibly divulge) which show the ground and lower level track layouts, including the wagon/loco hoist and how the storage bays were accessed. Obviously I cannot publish the actual plans on here, but I can show these rough sketches I've made. This top-down view shows the ground level and the first two lower level plans - the actual number of levels is still unknown. Of course, the point of all this top-secret information is to provide the basis of my next layout. An even rougher cross-sectional view shows the proposal. Construction should start sometime soon (as after finishing the 2011 Challenge entries almost a week ago, I'm already getting withdrawal symptoms). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted October 7, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 7, 2011 Interesting concept. All sorts of possibilities for scenic embellishments. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Stubby47 Posted October 7, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 7, 2011 Lower ground I'm thinking large dark grey stone work, with large archways and cathedral-style roofs. At ground level it will be more of a military base environment, painted kerbs stones, neatly cut grass, immaculate ballast, etc. I'll need to add lighting in the lower levels, which will be a first for me. I also want to mechanise the moving of the wagons into and out of the bays... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted October 7, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 7, 2011 Did you consider putting in the link line from the old LSWR line along with the jetty out into the Tamar? Google Earth shows a nice little red shunter sat on one of the remaining sidings at the site. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Stubby47 Posted October 7, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 7, 2011 Hi Kris, No I hadn't considered going that far. Essentially this is a repeat of 'Wheal Tiny' - more vertical that horizontal, though I will have an extension to the ground level to include a fiddle yard. Stu Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinWalsh Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Stu, Given the location of this store, it's most likely to be a Naval armaments depot which means the concrete flooring would have received a coating of ship deck green (think malachite green mixed with very glossy apple green). What gauge/scale are you thinking of doing this in? Kev Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted October 7, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 7, 2011 It's very much Naval amaments Kev. It was built in that location to allow direct arming of ships and subs but if there should there be a big bang then Plymouth would not be too badly affected. (Unless the nuclear arsenal went up that was rumoured to have been stored here at one point). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Stubby47 Posted October 7, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 7, 2011 Kev, Yep, I was expecting it to be for Devonport, so thanks for the colour advice. Scale - 4mm, to use my new Sentinel - I'm hoping to make the hoist big enough to take this loco up and down as well as the wagons. Stu (And before anyone asks, No, I haven't finished it yet...) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted October 7, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 7, 2011 (And before anyone asks, No, I haven't finished it yet...) You must be slacking Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinWalsh Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Are you planning to motorise the hoist or will you reply on manual movement from the rear of the layout? I ask this as at some point in the future (like 5 years away) our club layout "Oakley" will gain an extension depicting something similar to this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Stubby47 Posted October 7, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 7, 2011 Oh, the hoist will be motorised - as is the one on 'Wheal Tiny'. It's controlled by the normal track controller via a DPDT switch between the hoist motor and the track. The difference is I also have to energise the tracks to get the loco on and off... Control will be from the side of the layout, as I found with 'Wheal Tiny' it's very hard to see the underground part from the back ! Link to Wheal Tiny build thread. (Doesn't it look dated...) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R A Watson Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Don't want to pour water on your plans, but from a prototype point of view you will need a large pumphouse somewhere. The lower levels will be below the river bed, just the site for a M O D beam engne house!. But, on a serious level, this will be a fascinating project and I wait to see the progress with interest. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Stubby47 Posted October 7, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 7, 2011 I've had a thought.... The two track layouts undeground are perhaps a bit over complicated. That resourceful chap, Mr Nevard, has installed on Brewhouse Quay a working wagon turntable which can also be traversed by a loco - I believe they are PHD items. So I might just have a straight line out of the hoist with two turntables accessing bays. It will make shunting a bit interesting, but will also give me more room behind tne scenes to make the movement of both table and wagons achievable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ramblin Rich Posted October 7, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 7, 2011 Looks interesting Stu, and possibly a layout catering for folks of all heights - But - Scale - 4mm, to use my new Sentinel - I'm hoping to make the hoist big enough to take this loco up and down as well as the wagons. Stu A steam loco - underground - in an armaments store? Shurly shome mishtake.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
60091 Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 This looks very interesting. You talk about the site being rail served in the past tense so I was wondering A... Is the site still in use? B...When was it built/excavated and how long was it rail served? The Royal Navy is another interest of mine and although this isn't an area of the country I'm familiar with I do remember taking a couple of trips round the harbour back in the 70s. Look forward to seeing how your ideas develop. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted October 7, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 7, 2011 The site is still in use and is still rail served. There also used to be a narrow gauge line on the site but this was removed in the late 70's The site first came into use in 1926. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Nevard Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 Clever, different, a break from the norm! Sounds fabulous! Must be a West Country modellers thing these working wagons hoists, that clever Mr Harrap of Quay:87 has just built a working one a gather. The wagon T/T is indeed a PHD thing, and it works just fine given that I am mechaically inept. I'd suggest mounting it some something a little strurdier than the suggested plastic card disc, 2mm ply or make even a disc of copper clad would be my choice if and when I do another. What sort of depth will the layout be? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vac_basher Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 Interesting scenario. I look forward to seeing this project take shape. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Stubby47 Posted October 8, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 8, 2011 Thanks for all the interest & replies !! Don't want to pour water on your plans, but from a prototype point of view you will need a large pumphouse somewhere. The lower levels will be below the river bed, just the site for a M O D beam engne house!. But, on a serious level, this will be a fascinating project and I wait to see the progress with interest. I'm not sure how much ground level room I'll have to include this - the layout is really a vertical one, rather than the normal horizontal. A steam loco - underground - in an armaments store? Shurly shome mishtake.... Yes, I did wonder about this, but it's such a great little loco and it would cause some debate at exhibitions by using it.... Or I could restrict the Sentinal to the ground level and use a battery loco (based on a black beetle / spud) for the lower levels. This looks very interesting. You talk about the site being rail served in the past tense so I was wondering A... Is the site still in use? B...When was it built/excavated and how long was it rail served? The Royal Navy is another interest of mine and although this isn't an area of the country I'm familiar with I do remember taking a couple of trips round the harbour back in the 70s. Look forward to seeing how your ideas develop. No idea if the site is still in use, or if it ever had an underground railway as I'm proposing - it was just the spark to start me off. The site is still in use and is still rail served. There also used to be a narrow gauge line on the site but this was removed in the late 70's The site first came into use in 1926. Ah, there you go, I've learnt something new. Clever, different, a break from the norm! Sounds fabulous! Must be a West Country modellers thing these working wagons hoists, that clever Mr Harrap of Quay:87 has just built a working one a gather. The wagon T/T is indeed a PHD thing, and it works just fine given that I am mechaically inept. I'd suggest mounting it some something a little strurdier than the suggested plastic card disc, 2mm ply or make even a disc of copper clad would be my choice if and when I do another. What sort of depth will the layout be? Thanks for the info Chris. I'm planning a depth of perhaps 6-8 inches per level, so as it stands a max of 2 ft, plus taller buildings / head gear on the ground level. But if I can get long enough brass rods (for the hoist) I could add extra floors... Looks an interesting one Stu Im quite familar with Ernesettle seeing as it is served off the Gunnislake branch - There used to be a few vans appear late at night backalong, no doubt when Tomahawk missles were being hurled somewhere or another....... Remember, no weathering required on the Sentinel - The depot shunter always looked immaculate, as one would expect I've been thinking about creating some special wagons with larger ordnance on, to supplement the non-descript vans hiding their special cargo. Interesting scenario. I look forward to seeing this project take shape. Hopefully I'll be able to make a start soon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Stubby47 Posted October 10, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 10, 2011 There are three main areas of mechanisation to consider with this project. Hoist. Firstly, obviously, is the hoist. The Wheal Tiny hoist uses plasticard ‘L’ angle pieces for each of the four corner guides, with a reasonably snug fitting cage inside. However, the plasticard was left unpainted as this would have caused unwanted friction. I have considered using brass tubes as the main supports, with slightly larger brass tubes on each corner of the cage, but this will mean I cannot brace the support tubes at any point from top to bottom. I could use ‘L’ angle brass, as before, which could then be braced – but would soldering the brass cause it to deform and lose its straightness ? I also want to add a counter-weight, which will also need similar guidance consideration. The pit head will need to have some large pulley wheels and the winding house will need to have a slow controllable motor. I’m also considering using some sort of multi-pulley system to reduce the dead-weight lift. Turntables Next, I need to make the turntables rotate. This I can probably do as before, using a length of bicycle spoke. The uncoupling again can be done using the Brian Kirby method and moveable magnets under the track. The challenge here is to enable this to be operated from one end of the layout, rather than the back, and to prevent the mechanisms for the two tables (on each level) from interfering with each other. Moving the wagons into and out of the bay This is the real challenge. Again, this needs to be operated from one end of the layout, and it would be even better if it was motorised. Whatever I use needs to be able to pull the wagon into the bay, at a steady, controlled rate and also push it out again on to the table. A simple pole / girder, with a standard coupling on the end would do this, using a similar moveable magnet to uncouple this from the wagon as before. To be able to move the pole/ girder in a straight & horizontal line, I’m thinking along the lines of a single axle carriage running on the track inside the bay, moved by an asymmetrically linked lever, which will be driven by a short-distance movement motor, such as a Tortoise. I obviously will need to make four of these... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted October 10, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 10, 2011 To move your wagons you could put a movable electo magnet under the track and a magnet or piece of steel in the wagons. Switch magnet on and move your wagon as required. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Stubby47 Posted October 10, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 10, 2011 But how do I move the electro-magnet ? Also, this would have to go right under the wagon turntable, as far as the table axis, so would interfere with the table itself. The challenge isn't with the moving of the wagon, it's with the moving of the bit the wagon is attached to. Thanks for your input, though, I'm always open to suggestions & improvements. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted October 10, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 10, 2011 Making the magnet move is easy with some form of hidden track (mount the magnet on a wagon etc), but I'd not taken into account the WTT which does make things trickier. Never mind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Stubby47 Posted October 10, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 10, 2011 Here is my first thoughts on making the wagon coupling move in & out of the bay. Based on a simple child's tracing toy, the movement from the drive system will be magnified into the same lateral movement at the point of the coupling. The actual dimensions will be discovered by trial & error (the maths is probably computational, but life is too short ). The drive system shown is from a wheel & piston arrangement - further investigation of Brian Harrap's use of Tortoise motors to power his bridges may provide a better method. Comments, suggestions, hysterical laughter, all are appreciated. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 10, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 10, 2011 Here is my first thoughts on making the wagon coupling move in & out of the bay. Based on a simple child's tracing toy, the movement from the drive system will be magnified into the same lateral movement at the point of the coupling. The actual dimensions will be discoved by trial & error (the maths is probably computational, but life is too short ). The drive system shown is from a wheel & piston arrangement - further investigation of Brian Harrap's use of Tortoise motors to power his bridges may provide a better method. Comments, suggestions, hysterical laughter, all are appreciated. No hysterical laughter at all Stu - I think that is the right sort of approach as you have got to keep the wagon under control when pulling and pushing because of stopping it in the right place on the turntable (fairly precise that bit) and when in the loading bay, and it won't have any momentum of its own. The bit which looks to me more awkward is being able to remotely(?) couple/uncouple to/from the 'shunting arm' Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.