The Fall & Rise of the 60's ( was The End of the Tugs?)

['CHARD]

1. Either as lease to a TOC or to sell onwards as rebuilt/refurbished locomotives which I have a feeling the latter is more appropriate.

 

2. Not to mention that it will take some more trucks off the tracks in the process which can only be a good thing.

 

3. I remember the early 1990's (or could have been the late-1980's) when CIE (as it was known then) bought a load of ex-BR Mk2's and refurbished and rebuilt them to use on their railway network.

 

 

1. There is no way these would be leased to a TOC - fact.  

 

2. Surely the intention from an environmental viewpoint is to take trucks off the roads? 

 

3. Comparative cost of refurbishment/ re-engineering a MkII compared to a Type 5 heavy freight loco?  A tenth maybe?

[BritishRail60062]

1. There is no way these would be leased to a TOC - fact.  

 

2. Surely the intention from an environmental viewpoint is to take trucks off the roads? 

 

3. Comparative cost of refurbishment/ re-engineering a MkII compared to a Type 5 heavy freight loco?  A tenth maybe?

To be fair there. I was covering all angles about the leasing/selling thingy . Although in regards to the third point would be that the Class 60 locomotives would be sold already rebuilt and refurbished all set ready to enter traffic with type training for the drivers. As the Mk2's CIE bought were all refurbished in-house .

 

The bottom line is that whoever gets these Class 60's. I will/should have the chance to photograph/film them. I would even go to Poland to film/photograph them in person. Should they be exported that far? .

[tamperman36]

If 60098 is not a viable prospect for resale I would have hoped it could be gifted to the NRM as it is of some historical interest being the 1000 th loco built by brush and an example of the last class of mainline diesel loco built in Britain for British Rail.

[Christopher125]

As I understand it, Ireland is heavily investing into its rail network and that includes new lines and will lead to more trains and perhaps freight being taken off the road and moved by rail.

Are they? There was a lot of investment at one time but that was before the recession, the last I heard they were talking about closures.

[rob D2]

We shall see .

I like that phrase " pre loved " class 60s.

 

Should get mike brewer to sell them !

[BritishRail60062]

Are they? There was a lot of investment at one time but that was before the recession, the last I heard they were talking about closures.

From what I read in a rail magazine (I think it was "Modern Railways") last year. They were investing on improving the network and renewing the trackwork but that was back in 2015. So I am a bit out of date. They have recently introduced the Belmond train in night blue colours. So there is progress there even if it is slow. Although the Belmond Express is for another topic however ,

 

We shall see .

I like that phrase " pre loved " class 60s.

 

Should get mike brewer to sell them !

Would Mike Brewer know about these locomotives though? Probably more than me!

 

Only time will tell mate.

[tamperman36]

It would be OK getting Mike Brewer to sell them but it would definatley take more than Edd China and a workshop lift to do all the restoration work required to get them back into good running order.

[daveyb]

I agree with you mate....

 

But I thought that 66779 for GBRF was the very last one built, so that route is a no go either? Does EMD still make any locomotives for the European market any more since GM has changed hands? As I believe GM is now owned by the Daimler-Chrysler group.

 

We will have to wait and see what happens with those 20 Class 60's.

The EMD part was sold to the Caterpillar parent group's rail sector. The cars etc merged with the Fiat groups at some level. Daimler Chrysler split over 5 years ago but there is now a link with Fiat (which is interesting considering where the money is, but then it was the loan section GMAC that brought down the D/C Finance house...

 

The 645 engine can't meet emissions in new build (where it can as a grandfather fit) so you need the 710 engine which won't fit in a 66 body (and only just conforms to current economic stds)... so no official EMD products are available for Europe at the moment, I believe.

Edited July 31, 2017 by daveyb

[cheesysmith]

The class 66 & 67 both have 710 engines, v12 ones, against the 645 v16 in the 59. EMD don't have a engine for Europe that can pass emissions yet. In the USA, they are using a new engine based on the 4 stroke version they tried out in the SD90MACs. Due to the emissions laws the 2 stroke is dead.

Edited July 31, 2017 by cheesysmith

[BritishRail60062]

If 60098 is not a viable prospect for resale I would have hoped it could be gifted to the NRM as it is of some historical interest being the 1000 th loco built by brush and an example of the last class of mainline diesel loco built in Britain for British Rail.

I am surprised that it wasn't 60098 that was being offered to the NRM as a donation locomotive as being the 1000th Brush Locomotive built at Loughborough. But on the other hand though. 60100 is the officially the last British Diesel Locomotive built on these shores for British Rail. So I would class that one as the official "Evening Star" of British Rail engineering as far as British built freight locomotives are concerned .

 

It would be OK getting Mike Brewer to sell them but it would definatley take more than Edd China and a workshop lift to do all the restoration work required to get them back into good running order.

I am sure that a full rebuild would cure any major problems as that is what DBC did with their "Super 60's" between 2011 and 2014 if I remember right. Also Brush/Wabtec could use the rebuild program to learn how to make a new locomotive in the future post-2019 if Britain is to build its own locomotives again .

 

The EMD part was sold to the Caterpillar parent group's rail sector. The cars etc merged with the Fiat groups at some level. Daimler Chrysler split over 5 years ago but there is now a link with Fiat (which is interesting considering where the money is, but then it was the loan section GMAC that brought down the D/C Finance house...

 

The 645 engine can't meet emissions in new build (where it can as a grandfather fit) so you need the 710 engine which won't fit in a 66 body (and only just conforms to current economic stds)... so no official EMD products are available for Europe at the moment, I believe.

That might explain things as to why there is no new locomotive from them as of yet. As for the emission regulations, I would have thought that retrofitting a CRT filter or an "AD-Blue" system where a chemical is added to capture more carbon from the exhaust system. This is especially true with most post 2002 trucks and buses that are used in the UK. So maybe that could be a viable option to use on new trains?

 

The class 66 & 67 both have 710 engines, v12 ones, against the 645 v16 in the 59. EMD don't have a engine for Europe that can pass emissions yet. In the USA, they are using a new engine based on the 4 stroke version they tried out in the SD90MACs. Due to the emissions laws the 2 stroke is dead.

I thought as much as the Class 59 is basically an SD40-2 that has been shrunk into the UK/EU loading gauge. However I think that is EMD did their research and added a fuel particle filter in conjunction with a fuel treatment agent such as Envirox that is used on buses/trucks. Perhaps they could produce a European compliant engine that would meet the Euro 6 emissions . Also Brush/Wabtec could try this technology with the MTU 16V4000 or the VP185 if they are planning to re-power the 20 Class 60's. This is assuming that the MB275's are not compliant in that aspect.

 

Just a thought.

[cornish trains jez]

Isn't it strange that Brush are buying back the locos that they originally built.

Many of the them have been out of service for some time so although 25-26 years old, most of them have probably only seen 20 years service.

[tamperman36]

 I thought that the 59/2s had the 710 series engines.

[Steadfast]

Nope, all 59s have 16-645E, E3C to be precise I believe

 

Jo

[BritishRail60062]

Isn't it strange that Brush are buying back the locos that they originally built.

Many of the them have been out of service for some time so although 25-26 years old, most of them have probably only seen 20 years service.

It is a very interesting move for Brush/Wabtec in my opinion and as an enthusiast, I welcome the move to be honest as it will mean that up to 20 more Class 60's are going to be used somewhere. However what will be the future of those 20 Class 60's in terms of usage or export. Only those at Brush/Wabtec in the inside will know and the rest of us are on the "to find out" list .

 

Judging from past outcomes from Brush. They brought 43101 (now 43301) back from the dead as that HST power car spent a few years on trestles outside Brush Traction and they did a great job with rebuilding that one. I think most of the Class 60's will be able to be moved from Toton to Loughborough by rail. But if any that are ceased up will most likely be moved by road from my assumption.

 

Well the price that Brush/Wabtec would pay for those lot would be at a bulk discount at the very least. Nowhere near as high as what British Rail would have paid for them when they were new. But the Class 60's are about 23 for the youngest members and 28 years old based on the first batch that was handed over to British Rail in July 1989. I know the Class 60's are quite temperamental if not a bit fickle which was the case when they were first built and Brush had to iron out the bugs.

 

These days though, technology has moved one and better components are now available to refurbish or rebuild older trains for companies that cannot afford to buy new trains at the start. Also taking into account that the Class 37, Class 47's as well the Class 20 and Class 31's that are well over 50 years old. They are still running on the railway and although not as large numbers as they used to be. There is still a healthy amount of them floating about.

 

Meanwhile if these Class 60's are not for the UK operations. Perhaps those 20 could end up in Poland, Holland or even Hungary or Bulgaria as they use the 4ft, 8in loading gauge like the UK and most of Europe does. I am not sure if Spain or Italy would be interested in them though to be honest. If not Europe, I wonder if China, Taiwan, Thailand, South Korea or Japan would be interested in them? If I was a train operator in heavy freight business, I sure would be making a bid on them .

[cheesysmith]

IIRC the 59 is based on the SD50, but without the engine set to the higher HP that caused unreliability.

[daveyb]

Nope, all 59s have 16-645E, E3C to be precise I believe

 

Jo

I'm a generation behind then. I thought the 59s had the 567 and the 66 & 67 the 645. The 710 is available for re-engine work in the American (not California) market.

 

The current EMD owners are Progress Rail ( the Cat owned company I referred to earlier) who are busy doing rebuilds using the latest Tier 4 emmissions 710 engines but also offer a Cat3516 Tier 3 or 4 option.

 

Is the Mirlees engine upgradable with emmissions work?

[cheesysmith]

They are able to do rebuilds using the older engines in the USA because it's the age of the loco that counts. They cannot make new locos using the 2 strokes as they do not pass the EPA standards for new builds. It's the same in Europe, you cannot import any new EMD 2 stroke engines, witness the new build loco using the engine from the highland accident loco and the import and modification from Europe of 66s for GBRF.

 

As to modifying the engine in the 60 to pass latest emissions, it would destroy its USP, the fuel economy. IIRC it has a figure of only 189grams per KW hour. No other engine gets anywhere near that (the EMD 2 strokes already have poor fuel economy, in fact I cannot remember seeing the figure ever published). For example of what the emissions standards do to fuel economy, the busses in Sheffield. All Volvo, and the old 10L engine (euro2) did between 7.5 and 10 mpg. The 7L engine (euro3) does aprox 6.5, and the 9L engine (just upgraded to euro5) does at best 5.5 mpg. The 9L engine also has computer controlled part time aux loads, electric fans instead of hydrostatic and other fuel saving bits but the old 10L engine had none of this, was more powerful, and still had better fuel economy.

[Southernman46]

Steering the topic back onto the actual loco's for a bit .............. With the merest hint of 4-star in the air, 60054 starts to pull away into the rising sun at Newbury with the Robeston - Theale tanks back in June 2012 ................

Edited August 3, 2017 by Southernman46

[BritishRail60062]

Well people. Apparently the rumours of 20 Class 60's being sold to Wabtec is no longer a Myth .

 

http://www.railwaysillustrated.com/2017/08/08/class-60s-sold-to-wabtec/

[Christopher125]

From what I read in a rail magazine (I think it was "Modern Railways") last year. They were investing on improving the network and renewing the trackwork but that was back in 2015. So I am a bit out of date. They have recently introduced the Belmond train in night blue colours. So there is progress there even if it is slow. Although the Belmond Express is for another topic however ,

 

I was thinking of reports like this in the Irish Times last October: Rail report: Routes around country at risk of closure

 

"The financial problems of the country’s railways could be addressed in one of three ways – by the State providing millions in increased exchequer funding, by widescale route closures, or by a combination of both, including reform of the free travel scheme, the Government has been told.

 

A review, set up to look at possible solutions to the rail company’s financial sustainability, says Iarnród Éireann needs more than €640 million in additional finance over the next five years to tackle solvency issues and as compensation for previous under-funding."

 

AFAIK the Belmond service is a private investment by that company which also operates the British Pullman and Royal Scotsman - it's not really indicative of the wider network.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Christopher125

[BritishRail60062]

 

I was thinking of reports like this in the Irish Times last October: Rail report: Routes around country at risk of closure

 

"The financial problems of the country’s railways could be addressed in one of three ways – by the State providing millions in increased exchequer funding, by widescale route closures, or by a combination of both, including reform of the free travel scheme, the Government has been told.

 

A review, set up to look at possible solutions to the rail company’s financial sustainability, says Iarnród Éireann needs more than €640 million in additional finance over the next five years to tackle solvency issues and as compensation for previous under-funding."

 

AFAIK the Belmond service is a private investment by that company which also operates the British Pullman and Royal Scotsman - it's not really indicative of the wider network.

Thanks for the update about the Irish railway scenario there. It looks very sad times indeed for Iarnrod Eireann . I hope that Ireland will get the chance to leave the EU like the UK has as since the recession there. Things are pretty dire in terms of the railway scene. Yet somehow the bankers never got punished for their play in the global recession and I doubt that they ever will. But I believe in karma and I think that things will change for the better in the future in regards Ireland. But closing down railway lines isn't going to solve the problems though is it? Well if I must state my opinion, the best thing Ireland can do is leave the EU-leech behind and look after itself as it is more than able to do so . I am Irish-descendant myself and I just hope that there is a brighter future for Ireland.

 

Anyways keeping on topic. Here is the full list of all the Class 60's that are going to Brush in that lot of 20.

 

The complete list of the sold 20 Class 60's:

60003

60004

60005

60006

60008

60013

60014

60018

60022

60023

60025

60027

60030

60031

60032

60037

60042

60050

60051

60052

 

I have knocked up the list in simple form for reference and easy access for those using a mobile device. DBC are to rebuild/refurbish the Mirrlees MB275T and the rest of the overhaul work will be undertaken at Brush/Wabtec in Loughborough. There is no plans to repower them with anything else and there is rumours of six going to GBRF but how true that is, is not confirmed. But there is some interesting times ahead for those 20 Class 60's. Also I wonder what will become of the future of those other remaining 14 Class 60's? As I doubt that Brush/Wabtec would buy 20 just to build six overhauled examples and spares can be forged at the workshop anyway .

[John_Miles]

There was a report at Cardiff Central today of a freight train failing betweeb Carmarthen and Ferryside. The Robeston Westerleigh didn't appear so did a 60 fail?

[geoff]

I wonder how many drivers are required to work this train? A long distance run for a Colas class 60.

IMG_4849 by Geoffrey Robinson, on Flickr

60021 leads the 6L44 20:28 OXWELLMAINS LAFARGE COLAS - 13:06 WEST THURROCK SIDINGS FHH down towards the Glendon Iron Coy. bridge on time at 09:45 on Thursday 14 September 2017.

[newbryford]

Today - 60017 shuffles out from the fuel siding at Peak Forest in a haze of smoke.

 

To pick up a set of MMAs in the Cemex sidings

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Psiborg]

New class of loco for Colas!

 

Nope, just Class 60, 60047 at Bescot on the 17th September 2017 - Has someone been messing about with the electrical tape? 

 

 

Simon