Wright writes.....

[jamie92208]

As far as I know all the PO mineral wagons were pooled during the war and I think they all ended up in BR ownership apart from a few specialised ones such as tank wagons. The MOY wagon is very good with the replacement  planks with no letterring.  I suspect that anything could turn up anywhere but from what I've read the condition of ex PO wagons was generally  rather poor by the 50's.

 

Jamie

Edited March 16, 2020 by jamie92208

[thegreenhowards]

5 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

As far as I know all the PO mineral wagons were pooled during the war and I think they all ended up in BR ownership apart from a few specialised ones such as tank wagons. The MOY wagon is very good with the replacement  planks with no letterring.  I suspect that anything could turn up anywhere but from what I've read the condition of ex PO wagons was generally  rather poor by the 50's.

 

Jamie

I’d always understood that all PO mineral wagons were in black by the time of nationalisation. Is that correct?

 

Andy

[jamie92208]

1 minute ago, thegreenhowards said:

I’d always understood that all PO mineral wagons were in black by the time of nationalisation. Is that correct?

 

Andy

I've no accurate info but have seen photos of them with lettering postwar. So obviously they didn't all get repainted.

 

Jamie

[john new]

Some scruffy examples of lettering survived into the 1950s. I know I saw at least one as a boy in the goods yard at Chandlersford. It will be recorded in my late Father's sketchbooks but they are over 300 miles away with Mum so can't check exact identity of the surviving colliery name any time soon.

.

[Headstock]

15 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

I’d always understood that all PO mineral wagons were in black by the time of nationalisation. Is that correct?

 

Andy

 

Good evening Andy,

 

all 500, 000 wagons? The story is a little more complicated than that. As a matter of fashion, PO wagon liveries became less complicated as the 1930s progressed (This makes RTR manufactures and modellers of the 1930s very unhappy, they have been known to ignore this). Simple white lettering on a black background became more popular. However, other simpler styles were also popular and wagon liveries were not  necessarily updated to the latest styles. After pooling there was little attempt at some sort of uniform livery, little alone black. Paint would be applied as maintenance required. During and after the war, and prior to the allocation of PO numbers, a wagon's identity, vital statistics and owner were recorded in a data panel on the left-hand side of the wagon irrespective of what the condition of the livery. A multitude of livery styles, many rather worn, would have existed at Nationalization, with only the data panel being a standard feature.

[jwealleans]

Dave Ford's father's photos , which he posted on here a couple of years ago, give a good idea of PO liveries and the state of wagons just after the war.  One thing you don't often see modelled is the small ownership text painted on if a wagon lost enough of its sheeting so as to be unidentifiable. 

 

The salt van should have 'Non-pool' markings, I believe. 

 

Thomas Moy were a huge coal and coke concern in East Anglia as well as building wagons for other operators. 

 

The other POs should really be more run down with BR numbering starting to appear.  However if they were mine I'd leave them as they are, they're too well done to alter in that way.

 

I don't know who 'MCC' were, but there's a series in the HMRS Journal at the moment going through PO wagons which only carried initials, so perhaps we'll all be enlightened before too long.

Edited March 17, 2020 by jwealleans
Add link to photo thread.

[Barry O]

Why Tony..shame on you MCC..the Marylebone Cricket Club..of course..

Baz

[nerron]

2 minutes ago, Barry O said:

Why Tony..shame on you MCC..the Marylebone Cricket Club..of course..

Baz

Or more aptly Michael Colin Cowdrey!

[Bucoops]

More Coal Coming?

[Tony Wright]

Thanks for all the comments regarding PO wagons.

 

It's as I suspected, many of those shown (and others I have) are incongruous with regard to period. 

 

However, railway vehicles were very long lived, so the notion of something very old running with something more modern is not beyond believe. I've shown on here some time ago a BR double chimney A3 at Grantham, and the first two cars in its train (an express) are articulated ex-GN gangwayed stock - near 40 years old at least. 

 

Returning to PO wagons, the latest picture I can find of one still in service (with lettering still legible) is 1965! Unfortunately, I don't have a digital copy. 

[Chamby]

Private owner mineral wagons were phased out as a result of the formation of the National Coal Board in 1948.  However they generally became ‘pooled’ as a result of wartime requisitioning in 1939.  Typically a yellow motif with two concentrically placed letter ‘c’s in black was added to signify that the carriage charge was commuted on this pooled wagon.  More details here:

 

https://www.igg.org.uk/rail/6-livy/odds/9-poliv.htm

[jwealleans]

The Commuted Charge scheme goes back a long way before pooling or the Second World War.  Discussed on here a long time ago.

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, Barry O said:

Why Tony..shame on you MCC..the Marylebone Cricket Club..of course..

Baz

When were the coal sidings lifted at Lord's Baz?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[bbishop]

Aren't they still there?  For those that didn't know, the MCC owns all the Lord's site other than the Nursery pavilion.  This is above the GCR and the land is leased from the railway.

 

Bill

[Tony Wright]

In view of yesterday's announcement on 'self-isolation' for the over-70s, I've decided to postpone all future visits for folk to see Little Bytham for the foreseeable future, until the coronavirus crisis has been resolved. 

 

Though both Mo and I are in our 70s, we have no 'underlying health issues'. However, many of our visitors are in the same age-bracket, and they do have health issues.

 

It's a big disappointment (the diary is, as usual, showing at least one visit each week), but common sense must prevail. 

 

Thanks for your understanding.

[grahame]

I guess that as there is more self isolation during this crisis forums and threads like this are going to become more important and essential for social interaction and communication about the hobby.

 

Perhaps it is time for more to join in, extra comment and lurkers to 'de-cloak'. 

 

 

[drmditch]

24 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

In view of yesterday's announcement on 'self-isolation' for the over-70s, I've decided to postpone all future visits for folk to see Little Bytham for the foreseeable future, until the coronavirus crisis has been resolved. 

 

Though both Mo and I are in our 70s, we have no 'underlying health issues'. However, many of our visitors are in the same age-bracket, and they do have health issues.

 

It's a big disappointment (the diary is, as usual, showing at least one visit each week), but common sense must prevail. 

 

Thanks for your understanding.

 

Thank you. Please take care.

[TrevorP1]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

In view of yesterday's announcement on 'self-isolation' for the over-70s, I've decided to postpone all future visits for folk to see Little Bytham for the foreseeable future, until the coronavirus crisis has been resolved. 

 

Though both Mo and I are in our 70s, we have no 'underlying health issues'. However, many of our visitors are in the same age-bracket, and they do have health issues.

 

It's a big disappointment (the diary is, as usual, showing at least one visit each week), but common sense must prevail. 

 

Thanks for your understanding.

 

Stay safe and take the greatest care Tony and Mo. We'll see you when it's over.

 

My wife Carol is immune suppressed due to a kidney transplant so I fully understand the concerns. She has been told not to go to work and to dramatically reduce social contact. This has extra implications as her daughter is a sister at the local hospital.

 

Take care everyone.

[St Enodoc]

12 hours ago, cctransuk said:

MOY also had NARROW GAUGE PO wagons, on the 3' Southwold Railway

Some of them on 6-wheel Cleminson chassis too.

[St Enodoc]

3 hours ago, Barry O said:

Why Tony..shame on you MCC..the Marylebone Cricket Club..of course..

Baz

Tut tut Baz - Marylebone Cricket Club never uses the definite article (although it appears that the "other" MCC, a few hundred kilometres south of here, does)!

[zr2498]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

In view of yesterday's announcement on 'self-isolation' for the over-70s, I've decided to postpone all future visits for folk to see Little Bytham for the foreseeable future, until the coronavirus crisis has been resolved. 

 

Though both Mo and I are in our 70s, we have no 'underlying health issues'. However, many of our visitors are in the same age-bracket, and they do have health issues.

 

It's a big disappointment (the diary is, as usual, showing at least one visit each week), but common sense must prevail. 

 

Thanks for your understanding.

Tony

Seems that 'the bridge' was a just in time delivery. At least you will be able to run those trains now that the gap has been filled.

Looking forward to seeing all of that point rodding done!

Stay safe you guys.

Dave

[Hollar]

4 hours ago, Chamby said:

Private owner mineral wagons were phased out as a result of the formation of the National Coal Board in 1948.  However they generally became ‘pooled’ as a result of wartime requisitioning in 1939.  Typically a yellow motif with two concentrically placed letter ‘c’s in black was added to signify that the carriage charge was commuted on this pooled wagon.  More details here:

 

https://www.igg.org.uk/rail/6-livy/odds/9-poliv.htm

7-planker minerals stayed in traffic through the 50s and into the 60s, though obviously  in diminishing numbers as the 16 tonners entered service. Mostly they looked pretty beaten up, but occasionally a freakishly clean and tidy one can be seen.   Larkin's Prenationalisation freight wagons . .  has a 1961 photo of a coke wagon in reasonable condition and one from 1965 of a standard RCH coal wagon on its last legs, and they show up regularly in the background of photos of goods engines.  During WW2 they were requisitioned into a national pool, and from then on they could turn up anywhere regardless of their branding.

 

They were regularly repaired, with whatever timber was to hand at the time.  This could give a real varied of raw-wood colours, and very occasionally a plank of an entirely different colour would be stolen from another wagon.  I believe that towards the end of their use, they were used as one-trip loco coal wagons - and presumably broken up and burned on at the destination loco shed. 

 

Tone

 

As an aside, I've found that a good smear of Humbrol 64 (matt light grey) is a really good quick way of toning down the colours on RTR wagons and is usually my starting point.  I find distressing PO wagons very therapeutic when other modelling hasn't been going so well.

 

Tone

[Michael Edge]

I think I've seen some wagons with the PO livery "scrambled", the planks having been re-assembled in a different order. Degraded PO liveries should certainly be a lot more in evidence on early BR layouts.

[APOLLO]

This photo shows a couple of PO wagons on the L&Y Wigan line, around 1950 during an Ordnance Survey revision programme. The gaudy liveries have faded, original owner just can be seen in some cases.  The Tottenham wagon has return to Nottingham stencilled on - so a bit away from home in Wigan. I reckon this is how most looked back then. Any old wooden wagons I remember seeing back in the 60's were old and decrepit, most were stored  before off to the breakers at Central Wagon Ince.

 

 

From this very interesting site (beware - hours can be spent here)

 

https://www.timepix.uk/Collection-galleries/OS-Revision-Points-in-Greater-Manchester/1940s-1950s-Wigan/Wigan-north/

 

Brit15

[jwealleans]

I don't think the Tottenham wagon is stencilled Return to Nottingham - I think, like the wagon beyond it, the ownership details have been repainted onto the lower planking because it was felt that they were no longer distinguishable.

 

The quality of the photo is excellent -if you zoom in you can see (I think) that the next wagon belonged to the Cardiff Colliery Company, Llantrisant..