RMweb Premium petethemole Posted March 22, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 22, 2015 Remember that the best kept secret is one that is never passed to anyone. Reminds me of a joke: http://www.ebaumsworld.com/jokes/read/81710170/ Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Legally, I believe that the "rights" remain with him (or even his estate) - of course there is very little to stop you making a copy of anything but try to sell that copy and you open yourself to being sued. Remember that the best kept secret is one that is never passed to anyone. But why would anyone want to copy an existing kit? Surely if someone was going to invest the time, energy and money producing kits of existing models they would want an improved and updated product, if only to differentiate their effort from the originals. Personally, I think that the quicker some of these old ranges are allowed to die the more likely someone will step in and start producing models that people actually want. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
modelpara Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 I do recall that there was someone talking about a brand new kit for the Coronation Beaver Tail and depending on how that went they would look into producing the rest of the train. Not heard anything about it for a while mind you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 But why would anyone want to copy an existing kit?Probably the same reason why Hornby produce (for example) a RTR Class 37 and so do Bachmann. I think the point here is that a not so perfect kit that is available is better than a kit that is not available. Perhaps that is why so many old and imperfect and even difficult to build kits still sell at ridiculous premiums on ebay. In some cases there has simply been no alternative better one produced. Take DJH kits for want of a better example - pretty good kits IMO but far from perfect usually (not always) due to production and gauge compromises. A couple of years ago these sold on ebay for just over £50 often with little interest. These days even some of the oldest examples (without wheel - odd how they seem to loose them) go for over £100. So does that show a demand? Sure it would be good to see a new player come into the market with an essentially reworked kit (Falcon, Impetus, Craftsman, ... we can live in hope) but so far only perhaps Alan Gibson has has actually produced the goods and even there it has been extremely limited. I still firmly believe that this is all down to economics. The older (even than me) generation started most of these enterprises as an extension to their hobby. Often using skills they had acquired or used in mainstream life. They didn't care about profit and I suspect in many cases, care even about the real costs. They made very much what interested them or their friends. They supplied the public with the aim of perhaps recovering the unit cost. If they had any idea of business they might think the whole tired think could be sold on to someone else of similar enthusiasm who could continue their work and provide some lump sum for retirement. It just doesn't work like that in the real world. All these "businesses" are over valued. The new buyer doesn't have all the knowledge, skill, interest, time, capital required to take it on or even begin to develop, update and improve. A great deal of know how and network of contacts (a friend who can knock up a new axlebox master for the cost of a couple of pints) "dies" with the previous owner and anyway these days everyone wants to be paid some silly notion of a "living wage". These are low turnover, low (if any) profit businesses. The market for kits will always struggle against the mass produced RTR manufacturers who utilise China/India/next to develop country with their "living wages". On top of that is always the cry in the background that the interest in building kits and modelling in general is declining in today's "I want it" and "I want it, NOW" (preferably in a box, looking perfect and costing less in time and effort than buying a bottle of wine). So perhaps you are right. We should stop being nostalgic (I know difficult as Railway Enthusiasts have that inbuilt gene) and just let these kits die. Eventually they will run out on ebay. Then they will be consigned to history and forgotten. Perhaps we should concentrate and praise on what we have now, Judith Edge, High Level, London Road, Agenoria, Roxey, Connoisseur, Dragon, Warren Shephard, (to name but a few that litter my work bench at the moment) ... and many many more to be thankful for. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 57xx Posted March 25, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 25, 2015 Probably the same reason why Hornby produce (for example) a RTR Class 37 and so do Bachmann. I believe you are missing the point of Bill's statement. It's not about whether it is worth someone creating a new kit of the same diagram, but why copy an old kit with all it's inaccuracies when you could start from scratch and build a better version. There would be no point using an old CC kit of a Diag 04 Open for example and doing an exact facsimile when you could create a kit with an accurate sheet supporter rail, more accurate brake gear and a floor that sits doesn't sit so high that it turns a 5 plank open into a 4 plank. I love the Coopercraft kits I have built and have still to make, but time has moved on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 I believe you are missing the point of Bill's statement. It's not about whether it is worth someone creating a new kit of the same diagram, but why copy an old kit with all it's inaccuracies when you could start from scratch and build a better version. There would be no point using an old CC kit of a Diag 04 Open for example and doing an exact facsimile when you could create a kit with an accurate sheet supporter rail, more accurate brake gear and a floor that sits doesn't sit so high that it turns a 5 plank open into a 4 plank. I love the Coopercraft kits I have built and have still to make, but time has moved on.You are wrong, and snipped the glib comment about 37s not the substance. No the point I made, was that anything - even a copy with faults is better than nothing at all, and that it requires less effort and skill to make a copy with the faults than it does to research in minute detail and acquire the skill to generate masters with that detail for a completely new model. As most on here seem to be calling for the CC kit with all its faults and not the introduction of a super detailed, much improved new kit - a copy would seem to be the easy solution. But it would still be illegal to sell that copy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigtech Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Just thought I'd post the fact that today I contacted Mr P Dunn (..again) by phone to request ( again ) a refund, and, after a bit of confusion and prevarication, he fired up his computer, and lo and behold - I have my refund credited to my card account via Worldpay, and a confirmation email to prove it!! So now as far as I am concerned, "alls well that ends well" and my opinion of him has improved dramatically - even if its taken the best part of 6 months to get this result..... Regards. SIGTECH (Steve) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 40-something Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Just thought I'd post the fact that today I contacted Mr P Dunn (..again) by phone to request ( again ) a refund, and, after a bit of confusion and prevarication, he fired up his computer, and lo and behold - I have my refund credited to my card account via Worldpay, and a confirmation email to prove it!! So now as far as I am concerned, "alls well that ends well" and my opinion of him has improved dramatically - even if its taken the best part of 6 months to get this result..... Regards. SIGTECH (Steve) I've been trying to get a response from them for a couple of weeks now by email and phone. Another email has been sent today, if I have no response within a few days, Im taking action. Its no way to run a business Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spitfire2865 Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 I've been trying to get a response from them for a couple of weeks now by email and phone. Another email has been sent today, if I have no response within a few days, Im taking action. Its no way to run a business I havent been keeping up to date, but Im pretty sure our conclusion was that no contact is possible via not-shows. Id take action if you want that money back. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 40-something Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 I havent been keeping up to date, but Im pretty sure our conclusion was that no contact is possible via not-shows. Id take action if you want that money back. Trouble is, I've never seen his stand at any show I've been too. He should state on his website that online ordering is not possible, taking money and not supplying goods is essentially theft! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coombe Barton Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Coopercraft is supposed to be at Scalefour North this weekend. http://www.scalefour.org/scalefournorth/2015/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete55 Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Coopercraft is supposed to be at Scalefour North this weekend. http://www.scalefour.org/scalefournorth/2015/ Yes, he is there, although his stand did look rather empty when I passed by yesterday. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Another email has been sent today, if I have no response within a few days, Im taking action. Haven't we learned anything from this topic. mailing and web sites are a waste of time. For some reason - probably a very valid reason - this business does not do IT. So threatening ome "action" is a waste of time. Your emails wil be considered about te same as wistling in the wind on a cliff top. If the business has not read your emails (and you have no waay of prooving that they have) then the communication has effectively not been sent. A phone call with an actual converstaion is only a word of mouth. Youu need to deliver by post a notice of action, prior tto starting what can be a long process to gain "recovery". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 40-something Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Haven't we learned anything from this topic. mailing and web sites are a waste of time. For some reason - probably a very valid reason - this business does not do IT. So threatening ome "action" is a waste of time. Your emails wil be considered about te same as wistling in the wind on a cliff top. If the business has not read your emails (and you have no waay of prooving that they have) then the communication has effectively not been sent. A phone call with an actual converstaion is only a word of mouth. Youu need to deliver by post a notice of action, prior tto starting what can be a long process to gain "recovery". Having an email read receipt is proof of at least opening the email, whether its read or not is another thing. A recorded phone call is proof, though I have tried to call on numerous occasions to no avail. I'll be approaching my card issuer to recover the monies, who will then pursue recovery from the vendor If a trader has a website offering items for sale, then they are duty bound to either deliver the items or notify the website visitor that they cannot deliver. The bottom line is that this vendor is allowing purchases to process and taking money from people accounts, which they should not be doing Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigtech Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 I don't know if it is of any use, but the method that worked for me was to phone him on the number stated on his website, on a weekday at just after 2pm, I then quoted my online order details, requested a full refund,(and made it clear I was not at all happy with his service - asking him to credit the money back to me using 'WORLDPAY' immediately, which is the same way the money was originally taken. I remained on the phone whilst he fired up his computer, and, eventually he found my order and authorised the refund, - I received email notification an hour later. I think the trick is to be like a dog with a bone - be stubborn and don't give up - insist he actions it now and hang on the phone until he does it.... Regards SIGTECH (Steve). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 40-something Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 I don't know if it is of any use, but the method that worked for me was to phone him on the number stated on his website, on a weekday at just after 2pm, I then quoted my online order details, requested a full refund,(and made it clear I was not at all happy with his service - asking him to credit the money back to me using 'WORLDPAY' immediately, which is the same way the money was originally taken. I remained on the phone whilst he fired up his computer, and, eventually he found my order and authorised the refund, - I received email notification an hour later. I think the trick is to be like a dog with a bone - be stubborn and don't give up - insist he actions it now and hang on the phone until he does it.... Regards SIGTECH (Steve). Hi Steve I've tried calling a number of times at the timescales stated on the site but with no answer unfortunately, People who behave in this manner are doing the hobby no good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coombe Barton Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Although we all know that that shouldn't be necessary it may be the only way. I just wonder how many people not in RMweb do not know not to order. Even long time users of RMweb who have trust may well go and order only to come here when they realise that there are long term problems. Andy Y has tried to help him - he just hasn't listened to anyone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Having an email read receipt is proof of at least opening the email No it is not. These can be easily spoofed and can be part of the "ervice" provided by some email servers. Electronic delivery is not accepted as proof of being read or even delivery. Unlike post sent to the recipient's correct and current address. Recorder phone conversation - both parties and unedited is very good. But just you saying he said is of minimal value. Leaving a message on an answerphone is about as useless as an email. If a trader has a website offering items for sale, then they are duty bound to either deliver the items or notify the website visitor that they cannot deliver. Sure that is the position for someone whho has full control of their website. Several years ago (and still the case) someone can set up a website that takes payment through Worldpay/Paypal and loose control of the domain name or the virtual domain. They may just forgt the admin password or have it set up by a third party and cease to pay that third party to maintain the site. The website remains visible and can be visited but not maintained. Of course any buiness receiving payements fromm a card should know where and why they are rriving in their bank. (assuming competent bookkeeping). Good luck with recovery through the credit card company. They usually have a time limit for any such claim following a transaction. Any claim through Small Claims requires quite a lot of effort and potentially effort and court appearance. You DO have my sympathy, but threatening to take action on a website that has nothing to do with said business and where clearly the busiess do not read seems a bit pointless. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGC Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 IF money is being taken and goods not supplied, I would suggest contacting either the Police (although, I doubt that they will do much as I suspect they will consider this a trivial matter) or Trading Standards. Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 IF money is being taken and goods not supplied, I would suggest contacting either the Police (although, I doubt that they will do much as I suspect they will consider this a trivial matter) or Trading Standards. Phil For the Police to be involved you have to prove criminal intent. Not at all easy to prove and almost certainly such allegations will be regarded as a civil debt. One good thing to come out of this shambles is always pay on a credit card as on ebay etc, at least you have some protection from "sellers of this ilk". Hopefully if he has had enough complaints his credit will be black listed and credit facilities withdrawn asap. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 What is sad is there is clearly a market for many of these items judging by the extortionate prices that they are now going for on Ebay. A Slaters NER hopper was £24+ with a few hours to go earlier. You could buy a box of ten for about £50 until recently. Many of the Kirk coaches are now going for similar prices. Why didn't I buy the ones I wanted when they were readily available? I didn't because I believed this range was safe as houses. Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leander Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 I had a chat with him today at S4um North. He gave me the usual reason that his moulding machine has an electrical fault, is awaiting repair and he can't get the parts required. Furthermore he told me that the said machine is very old. IMHO I think the problem is that he's under-capitalised in a major way. As the availability of products declines (as seen at Wakefield this weekend) his ability to re-stock is increasingly jeopardised. The danger is that these products will simply disappear from the market if they haven't done so already. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Some of them never made it to market (Blacksmith kits), never mind disappear. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGC Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 And yet there are people out there who could and would take over the range, capitalise the re-introduction and produce the kits properly, if only he'd lose his pride, admit defeat and let the range go. Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leander Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 Some of them never made it to market (Blacksmith kits), never mind disappear. There were some Blacksmith coach kits and bogies (Fishbelly type being one) but I didn't pay them much attention as they're outside my area/period of interest. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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