News from Cooper Craft/Blacksmith/Slater's/Kirk LNER/Mailcoach Kits.

[Derekstuart]

Proof of posting isn't the same as proof of receipt.

 

HM Courts Service can send something out and it is indeed considered as served (and if you don't receive it, usually you need to go before a Judge to ask for judgement/ decisions to be set aside, but that's a different matter). **HOWEVER** YOU are not HM Courts Service and as a result, your assurances of first class posting will carry no weight.

 

The PO is not supposed to just push it through like that, or sign on their behalf (as mine does too I might add). However, you need to show that in all respects you have done what is reasonably expected of you. It is of course up to you. When I have been into legal battles for my company (several occasions) the value has always been a lot higher than people will be talking about here, so the cost of a special delivery is irrelevant in my case.

 

No doubt someone will be along to tell me that I have this all wrong and don't understand- which is fine. I am speaking from experience rather than watching rumphole of the bailey.

You can just send by first class post but obtain proof of posting. Courts send out documents posted 1st class and they are deemed served after 2 days

 

The problem with recorded is that a all too often a signature is not obtained, anything which fits through the letter box at home is pushed through without getting a signature. Easier for me than having to go to sorting office but when I have looked online they have not shown as delivered. Special delivery is more accurately logged but more expensive

 

Yes, and if you can show a bank (chargeback) or HMCS (small claims) that the recipient has gone away or worse, refuses service, then that is fine (especially refusal to accept service- that's actually an offence in itself).

Sometimes, recorded deliveries are rejected when they reach their destination.....

One small point that people might not be aware of- and I am NOT saying in this specific case, but if you send service to an address and the recipient has moved away without your knowledge, then you are at liberty to serve on "the last known address", which they won't respond to. You can then get default judgement and if you subsequently find them later on then you can ask for an enforcement warrant on their new location and it is down to THEM to ask for judgement to be set aside. Obviously this is only if you genuinely don't know their new address at the time of service- though some un-scrupulous people will use this technique to gain judgement easily and then "suddenly find" their new address and send bailiffs in. Trust me on this, it is NOT quick to get judgements set aside any more.

[Cormoran]

Hello boys and girls(?).

 

Have followed RMweb with interest for some time but this discussion has encouraged me to join up and comment on the Cooper Craft debacle.

 

I read this thread today, (unfortunately AFTER placing an order with Mr. Dunn in January) as I too wondered what the heck was going on as my repeated email enquiries have been ignored.

 

Long story short, I phoned him at 14:30 today and he answered immediately. Seems to me that that isn't the action of a chap who's trying to hide himself away! Anyhow, he's still blaming his lack of product on machine problems and explained (honestly?) that he has to track down refurbished parts as his machine(s) is/are too old to source new ones for. If he is to be believed he's also awaiting (refurbished?) moulds of good enough quality for his existing product lines before he can continue. He did not care to estimate how long it might be before production resumed….. From what was said it does appear that he has intention to honour outstanding orders but will that transpire into components in our hands???

 

As for lack of response to emails from customers he admitted that he is averse to such methods of communication and accepted that that was generating ill will.

 

I inferred that as a lynch mob was gathering it might be in his interests to embrace communication in some form or another and he agreed that he should post an update (not ongoing updates on progress towards resumption of product flow, that was asking too much it seems) when his injection moulding contraption is back in action on his website. Make a change from "a problem with my machine" that everyone's sick of reading, eh?

 

I know that a lot of you know him a lot better than I and may recommend that I take any of what he says with a pinch of salt but I'm going to let him hang on to my money a little longer before I send the bailiffs round… Who knows, my £30 'investment' in Cooper Craft may help him to resolve his problems whereas demanding a refund certainly wouldn't.

 

Just a thought.

[Derekstuart]

If your reference to bailiffs was in response to my comments, I did make it quite clear that I was talking of general procedures and not encouraging anyone to hound this bloke.

 

 

You make a good point about sales might just be the tipping point that helps him get sorted. I made that point before. But if you are going to take that tack then you need to have credibility. If he had come on here before and said "I need to sell X before I can do Y. You might have to wait until Z date though. I won't take anyone's money until I have enough pledges and a confirmed date."

Then he probably would, based upon the comments here, have managed to pull it off. Whether he has that credibility now, who knows. I don't know him and haven't bought from him directly, but I DO wish him well as there seems little to presume deliberate deception. But credibility is slipping.

[Cormoran]

If your reference to bailiffs was in response to my comments, I did make it quite clear that I was talking of general procedures and not encouraging anyone to hound this bloke.

 

 

 

@Derekstuart

 

Ooops, my apologies. Bad choice of term said in jest! Didn't mean to infer any form of action on my part other than perhaps saying 'Oy mate, givvus me money back' when I thought the time was appropriate .

 

In all seriousness I really believe that a simple 'phone call can work wonders towards resolving issues with this guy. Listen to what he has to say and if you remain unconvinced then ask for your money back. Far more effective than bleating on forums and hoping that he reads it. (There I go again - just upset someone else no doubt.).

 

You dead right about loss of credibility - he's achieving that alright. As I said earlier, I made the point to him that the distrust/dissatisfaction he is fostering could simply be alleviated by telling us what's going on. It isn't a lot to ask and would do him no end of good.

 

I whole heartedly agree that there is no deliberate deception going on here. I think he's got himself in a mucking fuddle, is out of his depth and is struggling to i) straighten things out and ii) accept that he does need help as has been proffered.

 

Yes, I hope that his issues can be resolved for, as others have said, the products he offers do fill gaps in the market and are a valuable resource.

 

C'mon Mr. Dunn, do the right thing and sort out this mess. (Just in case he is reading this!!).

[Derekstuart]

Comoran,

 

Likewise- no offence was intended. I am conscious that suggesting a POSSIBLE course of action quite often reads as THE course of action.

 

You write VERY wise words indeed and I would always agree to use the nut crackers long before the sledge hammers... and then if that doesn't work, well there's ANOTHER type of nut cracker...

 

It does sound to me very much like he started off with good intentions and things didn't go right. I wish he would just say that- I bet he would be very surprised at how much help and support he would get from people.

 

 

IF he does choose to read this thread then I would strongly invite him to discuss the situation. I for one don't think him a bad bloke

Perhaps if he doesn't want to enter into a debate then he might choose to make a statement via Mr York, for example. I obviously can't speak for him, but it sounds from previous comments that he would facilitate this.

[Cormoran]

An awful lot of conflicts have been resolved or averted by people sitting at a table (forum?) and talking!

[Derekstuart]

Oh absolutely- and if that doesn't get you anywhere you can still resort to more formal channels later. It is much harder the other way around.

 

As Churchill said "JAW JAW is better than WAR WAR"

He may also have said "You can go from JAW to WAR if need be, but seldom from WAR to JAW."

[raymw]

quote from coopercraft site

'if anyone has any comments, please get in touch as we'd be pleased to listen.'

Listening is easy, but that is all that happens. Although it may cost to get the web site designers to change the payment methods, the owner can easily update the home page, and the latest news, and indicate which items are not currently available. That would be just a common courtesy.

[Brinkly]

 

An awful lot of conflicts have been resolved or averted by people sitting at a table (forum?) and talking!

As others have said the problem is the lack of action from the conversation!

 

Personally I (and I beleive many others) just want an explanation from Coopercraft with regard to what is happening with his products and a time line as to when things might be sorted. There are projects that many of us have on the go and we might require a part, or component and cannot progress because it isn't available.

 

I asked over two years ago when the Blacksmiths GWR autocoach might be on sale again and was told, "yes I have those parts in stock, I'll get that sorted." My details where taken down, including a payment method and nothing. Now granted no money has been taken from my account and now the card is out of date, so nothing can be taken, but personally I think that is really poor customer service.

 

Others have had money taken from their accounts, for products that been listed as "in stock", when clearly there is not and have had to chase the owner for a refund. Getting a cock & bull story along the way. Personally speaking, I feel that is wrong.

 

He needs to sort this out and not just by saying, "the machine is broken."

 

Kind regards,

 

Nick

 

Edit for typo.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Many years ago the my employers had access to some joint customer research  carried out by BA, Volvo and SAS (IIRC). It showed:

 

• Dissatisfied customers told, on average, thirteen other people of their experience.

 

• Those thirteen told another ten people in less detail about the poor service from that company.

 

• 85+% of customers would use that company again, if they were able to discuss their complaint in an open and friendly way, even if the customers complaint wasn't "resolved".

 

If Paul Dunn would just step up to the plate, give an clear and honest explanation of his difficulties and what he is realistically able to do about it, then I am sure it would go a long way to re-establishing his credibility.

[Siberian Snooper]

The trouble with plastic injection machines does nothing for the lack of white metal castings for the Blacksmiths range of kits, which is another on going saga, that he promises to resolve in a few months time for the last three or four years. To reiterate previous postings if they ain't sorted by ExpoEM the sale of 10 or a dozen coach kits goes out of the window.

[Brassey]

 

Despite my own advice on here, I too made a £30 investment in CooperCraft two days ago and ordered a kit. I got a system generated email the same day to say my order had been despatched and said kit duly arrived in the post today, two days later. An excellent service and a great product.  

 

As I have said very early on in this thread, I have never had a problem with any internet orders from CooperCraft, of which I have place quite a few, all of which have been fulfilled to my satisfaction.

 

I HAVE steered clear of anything that is obviously affected by the machine problems (and anything LNER).

 

Hopefully if this level of service continues and the guy can generate some funds from sales then his problems might soon by resolved.

 

Peter

[finelines]

Firstly let me say if he's holding money he should get it back to them immediately. But the main thrust of my comment is a question. Has it crossed your mind he doesn't know the answer to your questions?

 

I suspect from my own experience a thread like this could be making things more difficult.

 

Roger

[colin penfold]

I suspect from my own experience a thread like this could be making things more difficult.

 

 

 

Take your point to an extent Roger, but on the other hand the thread is protecting other people from getting their money taken from them with no prospect of goods in return - by providing the bitter experience of those of us who have suffered.

 

An update for anyone who is having the same issue as me with getting your money back I have just spoken to the relevant department at my credit card provider, MBNA. They all work the same because the rules are made my MasterCard (and presumably VISA are similar)  If you have not received your goods 31 days after payment the credit card provider will recover your money for you. I need to wait a few more days and then Mr Dunn will be hearing from them. This is important for those of you with a patient disposition - there is a three month window to get help, in other words you must complain within four months of the transaction.

 

Clearly having a conversation with Mr Dunn yourself is no good, as he promised to give me a refund a week ago.........................

 

Hopefully if enough complaints come into MasterCard, he will get stopped from taking credit card payments.

[Joseph_Pestell]

You can just send by first class post but obtain proof of posting. Courts send out documents posted 1st class and they are deemed served after 2 days

 

The problem with recorded is that a all too often a signature is not obtained, anything which fits through the letter box at home is pushed through without getting a signature. Easier for me than having to go to sorting office but when I have looked online they have not shown as delivered. Special delivery is more accurately logged but more expensive

 

The Court system in this country is in meltdown! They often don't sent out documents until a fortnight after court decisions and then only 2nd class. A lottery really if you get them at all within a useful timeframe.

 

And I agree totally about the Post Office and signatures. Last year, I must have had at least 20 instances of parcels or documents needing signature just being left in the box.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Proof of posting isn't the same as proof of receipt.

 

HM Courts Service can send something out and it is indeed considered as served (and if you don't receive it, usually you need to go before a Judge to ask for judgement/ decisions to be set aside, but that's a different matter). **HOWEVER** YOU are not HM Courts Service and as a result, your assurances of first class posting will carry no weight.

 

The PO is not supposed to just push it through like that, or sign on their behalf (as mine does too I might add). However, you need to show that in all respects you have done what is reasonably expected of you. It is of course up to you. When I have been into legal battles for my company (several occasions) the value has always been a lot higher than people will be talking about here, so the cost of a special delivery is irrelevant in my case.

 

No doubt someone will be along to tell me that I have this all wrong and don't understand- which is fine. I am speaking from experience rather than watching rumphole of the bailey.

 

Yes, and if you can show a bank (chargeback) or HMCS (small claims) that the recipient has gone away or worse, refuses service, then that is fine (especially refusal to accept service- that's actually an offence in itself).

One small point that people might not be aware of- and I am NOT saying in this specific case, but if you send service to an address and the recipient has moved away without your knowledge, then you are at liberty to serve on "the last known address", which they won't respond to. You can then get default judgement and if you subsequently find them later on then you can ask for an enforcement warrant on their new location and it is down to THEM to ask for judgement to be set aside. Obviously this is only if you genuinely don't know their new address at the time of service- though some un-scrupulous people will use this technique to gain judgement easily and then "suddenly find" their new address and send bailiffs in. Trust me on this, it is NOT quick to get judgements set aside any more.

 

And why are the Courts not stamping down on these unscrupulous people?

[Derekstuart]

Court documents are time sensitive and it is rare for the Courts to send them out late (most is automated), but yes it does happen. Unfortunately when it is there mistake you often have to still go before a Judge to explain why- even if their own date stamp shows that you do not have your statutory 14 or 28 days (as the case may be) to respond.

The Court system in this country is in meltdown! They often don't sent out documents until a fortnight after court decisions and then only 2nd class. A lottery really if you get them at all within a useful timeframe.

 

And I agree totally about the Post Office and signatures. Last year, I must have had at least 20 instances of parcels or documents needing signature just being left in the box.

 

It is very simple, unless it can be demonstrated that you have deliberately and knowingly taken that course of action then what CAN the Court do? On an application from the respondent to set judgement aside, he can draw to the attention of the Court that you knowingly pulled that trick- (so if you have regular contact with that person and deliberately ignored their change of address etc) in which case there are remedies available to the Judge; however, if you then counter-argued and said "I knew he moved to roughly XYZ area, but not specifically where and this is his last known address...."

 

In most cases the Judge will agree to set Judgement aside... but therein lies a danger. If you can get enforcement action (ie bailiff warrant) BEFORE he can set judgement aside then he's screwed and will need to keep his doors locked. As you rightly point out, the Courts are in meltdown at the moment and you can often not even speak to local Court in person or on 'phone. The days of emergency applications to a Judge are pretty well finished too. A very serious mess in my opinion.

And why are the Courts not stamping down on these unscrupulous people?

[Horsetan]

....you can often not even speak to local Court in person or on 'phone. The days of emergency applications to a Judge are pretty well finished too. 

 

Solicitors themselves find it difficult to pin down anyone at Willesden County Court.

 

I wouldn't say that emergency applications to a Judge are finished - I have done "late night" applications to an out-of-hours Judge in the last year or so. There is still a place for them.

[Derekstuart]

More efficient than our local Court then.

 

At work, we were sent a summons to an old address following a supplier dispute from TWO YEARS prior. As it was listed in the CCBC we had to make a written application to them for a hearing with a Judge as our local CC wouldn't take the application, for a set aside.... we were VERY lucky that the Court took a long time to award the supplier an enforcement/ bailiff warrant as if that had happened in the mean time.

 

So I do not hold a lot of faith with urgent hearings, at least here. The RCJ (High Court for everyone else) is ironically much easier.

 

As a point of note, the supplier obviously deliberately waited until we moved, trying the same trick as I described earlier- so it does go on and if they can follow it through before you get set aside then you are screwed. Luckily for us the Judge accepted that they had been "negligent" in not finding our new address, which was clearly listed on adverts as well as several websites... (of course the Judge realised it was deliberate on their part, but could do nothing I suppose). We have of course issued a counter-claim for a substanitally larger amount and we are due to go to hearing in March.

Sorry for the increasing O/T. I will try to refrain.

Solicitors themselves find it difficult to pin down anyone at Willesden County Court.

 

I wouldn't say that emergency applications to a Judge are finished - I have done "late night" applications to an out-of-hours Judge in the last year or so. There is still a place for them.

[sigtech]

I have followed Colin Penfold in this matter- contacted my credit card company and registering a dispute with Cooper-Craft, hopefuly will be able to clawback the money....Not really the path I would have chosen, but I see no real alternative now.

 

SIGTECH (Steve)

[Horsetan]

.....Sorry for the increasing O/T. I will try to refrain.

 

I'm only surprised you didn't train as a Solicitor and go into litigation. You seem to know everything there is to know about it.....

[Derekstuart]

No, I couldn't possibly afford the pay cut.

 

I'm only surprised you didn't train as a Solicitor and go into litigation. You seem to know everything there is to know about it.....

[Coombe Barton]

Just come back from a visit to a not so local model shop. They have received some (they said) Coopercraft plastic kits but the quality was, to use their words, "dire".

 

Scratchbuilding and brass etching skills to be burnished, I think.

[57xx]

This is important for those of you with a patient disposition - there is a three month window to get help, in other words you must complain within four months of the transaction.

That might be their "official" line, but I have seen RFI's coming through at work 6+ months after the transaction date. This could be dependent on the issuing bank or card scheme so always worth a try if over the initial 4 months.

[Craigw]

As I live in Australia, catching him at a show is not really an option. By the time I was in a position to purchase Mallard/Blacksmith models they had passed into the strange limbo they have existed in for the last few years. 

 

So, about 10 months ago I started hunting on Ebay and other sources and have purchased the following GWR items: C4, C17, C29 and C31. D15, D30 and E73 and a Barnum. If I combine that lot with the David Geen coaches I have as well as the IKB and Slaters ones, I do not need any more. 

 

The point is, that if he had actually got his act together and reintroduced the Blacksmith range I would have purchased 7 coaches and a loco from him.

 

Hardly set the world on fire stuff, but I suspect there is a bit of pent up demand for them.

 

Craig W