A Nod To Brent - a friendly thread, filled with frivolity, cream teas and pasties. Longing for the happy days in the South Hams 1947.

[Guest 7007GreatWestern]

While I agree with the good Cap'n that the 16xx is an exquisite little machine, the production of one isn't going to fill a glaring gap in any model of GWR/WR operations. A long overdue model of the "Large Prairies" would do precisely that.

 

At the moment, if you want to represent the Western's (very extensive) suburban passenger services you have the choice of the very dated Airfix/Hornby offering from the late 70s, or building a kit........or doing without!

 

This is no small omission. The scope of work done by these machine was huge. The 6100s were utterly dominant on stopping trains to the west of London as far as Reading and Oxford. Similarly the 5101s monopolised suburban passenger traffic not only around Birmingham and the West Midlands but also South Wales, Birkenhead-Chester and many other places. The Large Prairies were also the Western's "banking" engine of choice and they were used extensively on the South Devon mainline, through the Severn Tunnel and up Sapperton. Although they are not generally associated with the Western's branch lines they did a significant amount of work on branch lines in Herefordshire, the Minehead Branch (now the West Somerset Railway) and even operated on the Moretonhampstead branch during its last year of operation.

 

The model manufacturers don't seem enamoured with large Passenger Tanks generally and Western ones in particular. The LMS modeller is the best served with the Fowler, Stanier and Fairburn Tanks all available. The LNER modeller does have the recent L1 as well as the older N2 and V3. The BR Standard 3 and 4 passenger tanks are covered by Bachmann. The Southern would have little use for this type of machine given its extensive electrification. Which leads us to the Western where, frankly the cupboard is bare!

 

It does seem bonkers to me that we have two manufacturers going head-to-head to produce rival versions of the 1361 saddle tank when there is no coverage to speak of for any of the large Prairies. The 1361 were very pretty engines for sure and served over a very long service life, but they were produced in tiny numbers and very constrained geographically. In contrast the Large Prairies worked over the the length and breadth of the company's mainlines over a sixty year span and were built in large numbers yet no manufacturer seems to see an opportunity there.

 

So far as I am aware the only difference between the 6100s and the 5101 was the working pressure of the boiler. The difference between the 5101 and the 8100 was driving wheel diameter. (I will happily be corrected if either of the two previous statements is incorrect!). How difficult would it be to produce tooling to represent those three classes given how little difference there is between them?

 

Heljan are well advanced with an 'O' gauge model of the 61xx. Is it too much to hope that they will release a 'OO' gauge version at some future date? Or is the threat of a Hornby re-release of the old Airfix tooled model too much of a disincentive?

[brianusa]

As we grow further and further away from the golden age, our perception of locos and railways in general changes dramatically. Picture this, many years ago the Good Capt'ns description of 1369s as 'cute' would have been reason to become discharged from the Ian Allan Book Club and stripped of Hornby Railway Club badges, but now not a murmur in protest. Its all right for my wife to call most things cute but a recently retired Orange Army general..........................?

 

Seriously, they are cute as are the 1361s and any CMR loco and woe betide anyone who challenges the new lexicon of railway descriptions no matter the brand.

 

Brian.

[Captain Kernow]

As we grow further and further away from the golden age, our perception of locos and railways in general changes dramatically. Picture this, many years ago the Good Capt'ns description of 1369s as 'cute' would have been reason to become discharged from the Ian Allan Book Club and stripped of Hornby Railway Club badges, but now not a murmur in protest. Its all right for my wife to call most things cute but a recently retired Orange Army general..........................?

 

Seriously, they are cute as are the 1361s and any CMR loco and woe betide anyone who challenges the new lexicon of railway descriptions no matter the brand.

 

Brian.

'Rebels are as Rebels do', as Kenneth Brannagh would say.

 

I still want to see an RTR 16XX, the cutest of all the panniers not yet produced, although my own Cotswold 16XX is not in my good books at the moment. I'm quite cross with it for still failing to run nice and smoothly, so it's been sat for an extended spell on the rolling road and won't be allowed off until it decides to behave. But it still looks cute, and almost as cuddly as a sweet little Croes Newydd 74XX.

[Northroader]

Last week I got in a trip on the KESR, behind their resident 16xx. Coming back up the 1 in 50 bank from Rolvenden to Tenterden with five mark 1 bogies, you realise what a handy engine they were, size, appearance, performance. You'd think Roger Redbox, or Billy Bluebox would notice this.

[Castle]

Hi All,

 

On another theme some of us were looking at real tank engines yesterday, complete with that fellah 'Castle' giving a smile for the camera -

 

DSCF9847.jpg

I resemble that accusation...

 

As to the differences between No.6106 and No.4144 - not a lot! The biggest difference to the slightly trained eye is just the locks on the tank filler lids. The boiler that No. 4144 was preserved with is a 61XX example and is currently pressed to 225psi as a result so it performs exactly as a 61XX would! It's advantageous in preservation to be able to have a bit more oomph and to accelerate quickly so it was certified as such.

 

I hope this helps!

 

All the best,

 

Castle

[Mallard60022]

'Rebels are as Rebels do', as Kenneth Brannagh would say.

 

I still want to see an RTR 16XX, the cutest of all the panniers not yet produced, although my own Cotswold 16XX is not in my good books at the moment. I'm quite cross with it for still failing to run nice and smoothly, so it's been sat for an extended spell on the rolling road and won't be allowed off until it decides to behave. But it still looks cute, and almost as cuddly as a sweet little Croes Newydd 74XX.

Crows Nude we used to call that shed, down Laira.

So you now have a 'naughty Rolling road eh? Better for Spams than the 'step'.

Here's cuddly  and 

Ar$£

[Guest 7007GreatWestern]

Hi All,

 

As to the differences between No.6106 and No.4144 - not a lot! The biggest difference to the slightly trained eye is just the locks on the tank filler lids. The boiler that No. 4144 was preserved with is a 61XX example and is currently pressed to 225psi as a result so it performs exactly as a 61XX would! It's advantageous in preservation to be able to have a bit more oomph and to accelerate quickly so it was certified as such.

 

I hope this helps!

 

All the best,

 

Castle

 

 

Dear Mr. Castle,

 

Thanks for that fascinating insight from the "coal face" of preservation engineering. I have often wondered why the Airfix Large Prairie (and now the Heljan 'O' gauge model) was released only as a 61xx when it should be identical to a 5101. I assumed there were some differences I was unaware of, but if a man of your experience can't tell the difference maybe the manufacturers have missed a trick?

 

A couple of questions if I may? Were there any internal differences between the boilers allocated to the 51xx and 61xx to allow for the additional pressure, for example extra stays, or were they considered interchangeable during overhaul at Swindon? Is it the case that the boilers were identical but the adjustment of the safety valves alone was different?

 

Also, if 4144 (which is a 5101) is currently operating at 225 psi does that make it technically a 61xx now?  

 

Best Regards,

 

Andy.

[The Stationmaster]

Dear Mr. Castle,

 

Thanks for that fascinating insight from the "coal face" of preservation engineering. I have often wondered why the Airfix Large Prairie (and now the Heljan 'O' gauge model) was released only as a 61xx when it should be identical to a 5101. I assumed there were some differences I was unaware of, but if a man of your experience can't tell the difference maybe the manufacturers have missed a trick?

 

A couple of questions if I may? Were there any internal differences between the boilers allocated to the 51xx and 61xx to allow for the additional pressure, for example extra stays, or were they considered interchangeable during overhaul at Swindon? Is it the case that the boilers were identical but the adjustment of the safety valves alone was different?

 

Also, if 4144 (which is a 5101) is currently operating at 225 psi does that make it technically a 61xx now?  

 

Best Regards,

 

Andy.

 

Visually the 61XX and 5101 classes were virtually identical and between them account for the numerical bulk of the later large prairies.  They are thus, minor changes over the years apart, an ideal engine for many GWR/WR layouts especially if suitable stock were also available but of course we don't actually know which manufacturers are doing what in terms of future developments, er do we?  Based on recent form I definitely know which manufacturer I'd like to see doing one in 00 and in view of the mass of detail errors on their 1361s it wouldn't be Heljan.

Edited August 3, 2017 by The Stationmaster

[Guest 7007GreatWestern]

....but of course we don't actually know which manufacturers are doing what in terms of future developments, er do we?

 

Well I'm not sure about the "we" Mr. Stationmaster, but to quote the late Andrew Sachs as Manuel, certainly "I know nothing"!  

[St Enodoc]

Visually the 61XX and 5101 classes were virtually identical and between them account for the numerical bulk of the later large prairies.  They are thus, minor changes over the years apart, an ideal engine for many GWR/WR layouts especially if suitable stock were also available but of course we don't actually know which manufacturers are doing what in terms of future developments, er do we?  Based on recent form I definitely know which manufacturer I'd like to see doing one in 00 and in view of the mass of detail errors on their 1361s it wouldn't be Heljan.

Wills 5148 on the left and Airfix 4167 on the right.

 

Edited to get the numbers right.

Edited August 3, 2017 by St Enodoc

[Ian Hargrave]

Well I'm not sure about the "we" Mr. Stationmaster, but to quote the late Andrew Sachs as Manuel, certainly "I know nothing"!  

 

Me too.....

[Limpley Stoker]

 

Here is a really high pressure 2-6-2 from 1930

 

 

And a much cuter English version of the same date-- from Meccano Magazine May 1930

Edited August 3, 2017 by Limpley Stoker

[gwrrob]

Long time followers of this thread might ​notice something new in this shot but unfortunately there are no prizes.

 

[Clearwater]

The box on the front of the smoke box for reporting numbers?

 

David

[cary hill]

Here's a 1957 photo of a Large Prairie performing Duty No2  which seems to involve some desultory shunting of milk tankers.

 

[6892 Oakhill Grange]

Early 5101s built with large safety valve bonnet and a fender like the Airfix (kit and RTR) model. RCTS part 9 gives the exact numbers for the fender and safety valve covers change

 

Castle's point about different tank fillers was interesting. So I googled 6106 and saw those screw down fillers. Further searching was a little fruitless, 6154 in Russell has the quick open type. Overall I don't have sufficient photographic evidence to pin down when the change to quick opening fillers was made.

 

Add in the retrofit of shutters to early 5101s and 61xx, I could probably model 8 variations if I considered 29th February 1933 was my modelling date. I would of course get scorn because all GW locos look the same.

 

Does anyone know when the fillers changed? New cab panniers were still being built in 1935 with screw down fillers 2 years after 6154 had appeared.

 

Oakhill

[gwrrob]

Here's a 1957 photo of a Large Prairie performing Duty No2  which seems to involve some desultory shunting of milk tankers.

 

TOTNES PRAIRIE $_57.JPG

 

Talking of milk tanks and I'd love one of these, authentic or not.  

 

[81C]

Talking of milk tanks and I'd love one of these, authentic or not.

 

roddas.jpg

Robbies Rolling Stock might do transfers for you, If you can wait a bit I'm sure Dapol might add one to there tacky wagons collection.

[checkrail]

The box on the front of the smoke box for reporting numbers?

 

David

 

And a new last digit to loco number (or had you already told us about that and I missed it!).  No longer Drysllwyn Castle, but Eastnor Castle, or Fairey Battle in your period.

 

John C.

[Ian Hargrave]

Long time followers of this thread might ​notice something new in this shot but unfortunately there are no prizes.

 

78.jpg

 

 

Fairey Battle...in its final years of course it was an 87E favourite..the Valhalla for all the best Castles and would have sported the signature silvered buffers.But of course that was much,much later Robin.

[M.I.B]

Long time followers of this thread might ​notice something new in this shot but unfortunately there are no prizes.

 

 

No bus on the bridge?

 

[BR(W)]

Fairey Battle...in its final years of course it was an 87E favourite..the Valhalla for all the best Castles and would have sported the signature silvered buffers.But of course that was much,much later Robin.

 

Single-chimney examples, yes. But I would respectfully suggest that Stafford Road provided the best 'Castle' performances in the dying years with their double-chimney beauts. There again, talking of Valhalla, not many golden trees at 84A!

 

Cheers,

 

BR(W).

[gwrrob]

The box on the front of the smoke box for reporting numbers?

 

David

 

Absolutely and mine is a brass etch that comes with a pack of numbers.

 

The frame is also available as a 3D black plastic resin part separately. 4mm and 7mm.

 

http://www.precisionlabels.com/k17.html

[Guest 7007GreatWestern]

The box on the front of the smoke box for reporting numbers?

 

 

If anyone is interested, an in depth review of Western reporting numbers can be found on the superb David Hey website, based largely on the research of the late Ed Chaplin. Trust me, this is a lot less dull than it sounds!

 

http://www.davidheyscollection.com/page23.htm

 

Rob, the list for 1947 isn't available but that for 1949 is:-

 

http://www.davidheyscollection.com/0-0-a-ed-chaplin-summer-1949.pdf

 

Those three digit codes were the Western's means of giving signalmen a fighting chance of identifying the deluge of trains arriving into the West Country on Summer Saturdays from all points "up country". Given that the system persisted throughout the fifties I imagine it worked rather well!

 

Andy.

[81C]

Single-chimney examples, yes. But I would respectfully suggest that Stafford Road provided the best 'Castle' performances in the dying years with their double-chimney beauts. There again, talking of Valhalla, not many golden trees at 84A!

 

Cheers,

 

BR(W).

I never heard of Stafford Rd sporting the best/cleanest Castles, Cardiff was very much in the lime light for many years for being the best.