A Nod To Brent - a friendly thread, filled with frivolity, cream teas and pasties. Longing for the happy days in the South Hams 1947.

[The Fatadder]

The other question with the Plymouth Bristol L22 was that (in the 40s at least) it was supposed to be the spare for the main service (with each coach having an allocated standby).   But no replacement was named for the L22.  So I guess it was a case that any other mail van was acceptable in its place.

 

might finally have a suitable use for the L24 kit I have on the shelf…..

[The Stationmaster]

Don't forget Brian that 'in the old days'. (which in reality wasn't all that long ago) Letter Mail was collected from posy boxes several times during the working day and even the busier pillar n boxes were emptied more than once.  Thus Letter Mail was being despatched at various time of day and not just in the evening.   I doubt that a 15.45 departure from Plymouth would have seen much mail collected west of there but it would undoubtedly pick up LM at Plymouth and at some places further east although to what extent such mail needed sorting could be open to question.

 

And of course any vans which went one way at some time or other had to go back in the opposite direction (or onto the next leg of their working) and staff quite likely went with them to get themselves to the right place fora subsequent working.   If the Coaching programme shows the van as 'Light' we know it wasn't being used but I don't think it was commonly the case to show that in railway documentation for security reasons.

[The Stationmaster]

In the Winter 1946/47 Coach working Programme the only 'single' northbound Sorting van I can find was conveyed from Pontypool Road to Liverpool in the 12.00 (noon) Penzance - Liverpool which came back southwards on the 01.25 Crewe (where the quoted number identifies it as an L22).  I can't find any singleton Sorting Van originating from either Penzance or Plymouth on a weekday - the balanced working was the Up Postal off the Down Postal.

 

However in a 1940 amendment to the November 1939 'War Emergency' revision of the Coach Programme the 02.10 MO Crewe to Cardiff and Penzance is shown as conveying 'GW Mail Van 799 or spare ' from Bristol to North Road and the balancing working was the 15.50 from North Road.  The samw working applied in respect of the 01.40 MX Crewe - Penzance.  That working is definitely not replicated in the Winter 1946/47 programme and as the version I have includes considerable amendents I don't think it had been erroneously omitted.

 

However what it does show is that when the working was in operation it the van worked up to Bristol in order to return to Plymouth when it would no doubt have been required to sort Bristol Transfer (and possibly originating) mails.

[Nick Gough]

12 minutes ago, BMacdermott said:

 

Hello Nick

 

Good to hear from you. Votes duly noted.

 

You say that the L23 and L13 suit your requirements. Is that simply a matter of preference or was there a mail train with just those two in the formation?

 

Speaking personally (and not on behalf of my Mini-Poll colleagues) I wouldn't want to see the TPO apparatus operational as I feel it would add much cost to any project. The recent Bachmann Breakdown Crane 'works' but I wonder on the value of that. But, there again, does the fact that it 'works' actually sell the product to many who wouldn't buy a non-working one?

 

I recently posed the question about whether the L22 in the 3.45pm from Plymouth (Noon train from Penzance) actually picked up on route, but there has been no reply. Looking at my Public Timetable, it ambled up to Bristol, not arriving until 7.00pm.

 

Even so, would that not have made it too early for most pillar box collections and pre-sorting into bags?

 

And, if that is so, why wasn't a 'simple' Stowage Van used?

 

This is partly what I like about our Mini-Polls; they answer a question but open up two more... and so on!

 

Brian

 

Hi Brian

 

Good to speak with you again as well.

 

I want to (eventually) model the whole 1930s Great Western TPO.

 

Although this will require several different TPO vehicles I decided to vote for just two types as I feel it is more likely to see just two produced than all of them. This would at least give me a nucleus to build from. Also one Collett and one Churchward type would give the most variety. 

 

There are pros and cons to having working models.

They may be more attractive to some but the necessary adaptations to the vehicle would probably reduce the authenticity for scale modellers.

 

Nick

 

 

 

[BenL]

Dear Brian and poll team,

 

I'd like to vote for L18, L21, L22 and L23.

 

Huge thanks for all your great work on this!

 

Cheers,

 

Ben

[gwrrob]

I managed via a well known auction site to get a Bachmann slope sided 16 ton mineral wagon. Here it is after weathering and Gibson three hole wheels with the other minerals in the rake. A resin coal load will be fitted.

 

[BMacdermott]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

If the Coaching programme shows the van as 'Light' we know it wasn't being used but I don't think it was commonly the case to show that in railway documentation for security reasons.

 

Hello Mike

 

As part of the research for this Mini-Poll, I went through all the Carriage Working Programmes that are kindly provided by friend and (main) Poll Team colleague, Robert Carroll, but I don't recall seeing any TPO marked 'light'. That's not to say that I 'disagree' with you, though!

 

As we well know, not everything was in the CWP and not everything followed the CWP to the letter - amendments often being made before the books ever got on a printing press.

 

While writing, I thought readers might like to see the clip below from 1943 - the 4.00pm is a very short train!

Please respect the copyright as Robert's.

 

Brian

[Nick Gough]

I love the use of the word "Van" in these booklets.

I'm led to believe this could literally mean anything, as long as it has at least four wheels, a roof and vacuum brakes!

[The Fatadder]

56 minutes ago, BMacdermott said:

 

Hello Mike

 

As part of the research for this Mini-Poll, I went through all the Carriage Working Programmes that are kindly provided by friend and (main) Poll Team colleague, Robert Carroll, but I don't recall seeing any TPO marked 'light'. That's not to say that I 'disagree' with you, though!

 

As we well know, not everything was in the CWP and not everything followed the CWP to the letter - amendments often being made before the books ever got on a printing press.

 

While writing, I thought readers might like to see the clip below from 1943 - the 4.00pm is a very short train!

Please respect the copyright as Robert's.

 

Brian

 I found a photo of the up working in post war GWR (afraid I can’t recall the source) but I’ve attached an extract cropped just to the coaches.  Wish I could see a copy of the winter 1947 document……

the loco was attached to the L22, 

 

[BMacdermott]

31 minutes ago, The Fatadder said:

 I found a photo of the up working in post war GWR (afraid I can’t recall the source) but I’ve attached an extract cropped just to the coaches.  Wish I could see a copy of the winter 1947 document……

the loco was attached to the L22, 

 

Ignore post! Sent  in error!

 

Brian

Edited July 3, 2021 by BMacdermott

[BMacdermott]

Hello Fatadder

 

Sorry about the post in error above!

 

Well...look what I have just found as a result of looking for 1947 for you! I must have somehow missed it when looking originally!

 

This is the 10.10pm Down Postal Paddington-Penzance, 1946-1947. Look at the formation!

 

Brian

 

 

 

Edited July 3, 2021 by BMacdermott
Added dates 1946-1947.

[BMacdermott]

Hello Fatadder

 

What working does your photo show? It looks rather more like Empty Coaching Stock (ECS) to me.

 

Brian

[The Stationmaster]

The Winter 1946-47 formation of the 10.10 pm M-F Paddington -Penzance, and the 10.10 pm SO Paddington - Plymouth (North Road) were revised w.e.f. Monday 17 March 1947 with a number of changes to the vehicles involved plus some additional footnotes as  follows -

 

* Siphon G.  Paddn - Pze

Stowage Bk Van 812-813 or -814.   Lettered A.  Pdn - Pze

Stowage Van 793-794 or 795           Lettered B.         "

Sorting Carriage 806-807 or 808.    Lettered C          "

Sorting Carriage 843 or 844.            Lettered D          "

Sorting Carriage 845 or 846             Lettered E.         "

Bk Van 81, 1177 or 1125                   Lettered F          "       

* Siphon G                                          Pdn - North Rd

* Siphon G                                          Pdn - Exeter

Siphon G                                             Pdn - Bristol

 

Sorting Carriage 835 spare for D and E

* Siphons G 1223, 1228, 1242, 1258 and 1275 Branded 'To work only on Down and Up West Of England T.P.O. allocated to these workings

 

N.B. On Saturday night/Sunday morning the vehicles shown above as Paddn - Pze  were obviously shown as Paddn - Plymouth (North Road) with a footnote  subsequently added which read - "Worked light 1.0 pm Plymouth to Penzance"

 

The Sunday night (from Paddington) formation was also amended in March 1947 - the only difference from the M-F formation was that the three Siphons formed rear were not conveyed and  News Bk Van was conveyed instead being detached at Newton Abbot

[The Fatadder]

2 hours ago, BMacdermott said:

Hello Fatadder

 

Sorry about the post in error above!

 

Well...look what I have just found as a result of looking for 1947 for you! I must have somehow missed it when looking originally!

 

This is the 10.10pm Down Postal Paddington-Penzance, 1946-1947. Look at the formation!

 

Brian

 

 

 

That was what I was modelling originally ( with a detailed Hornby LMS van) before switching it up when I got a chance to buy an L25 kit.

1 hour ago, BMacdermott said:

Hello Fatadder

 

What working does your photo show? It looks rather more like Empty Coaching Stock (ECS) to me.

 

Brian

I will have to dig out the books and try and find it as I didn’t keep details other than rake x (matching up to my set number in my timetable.)

I think I am right in saying the 3 coaches behind the siphons are of LMS origin?

 

It was double headed with a castle and bulldog heading north, (I think in Devon) not sure why a single TPO would be in an ECS working in that part of the world? 

[The Fatadder]

10 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

The Winter 1946-47 formation of the 10.10 pm M-F Paddington -Penzance, and the 10.10 pm SO Paddington - Plymouth (North Road) were revised w.e.f. Monday 17 March 1947 with a number of changes to the vehicles involved plus some additional footnotes as  follows -

 

* Siphon G.  Paddn - Pze

Stowage Bk Van 812-813 or -814.   L23 Lettered A.  Pdn - Pze

Stowage Van 793-794 or 795         L21  Lettered B.         "

Sorting Carriage 806-807 or 808.    L18 Lettered C          "

Sorting Carriage 843 or 844.            L25 Lettered D          "

Sorting Carriage 845 or 846             L25 Lettered E.         "

Bk Van 81, 1177 or 1125                   Lettered F          "       

* Siphon G                                          Pdn - North Rd

* Siphon G                                          Pdn - Exeter

Siphon G                                             Pdn - Bristol

 

Sorting Carriage 835 L14? spare for D and E

* Siphons G 1223, 1228, 1242, 1258 and 1275 Branded 'To work only on Down and Up West Of England T.P.O. allocated to these workings

 

N.B. On Saturday night/Sunday morning the vehicles shown above as Paddn - Pze  were obviously shown as Paddn - Plymouth (North Road) with a footnote  subsequently added which read - "Worked light 1.0 pm Plymouth to Penzance"

 

The Sunday night (from Paddington) formation was also amended in March 1947 - the only difference from the M-F formation was that the three Siphons formed rear were not conveyed and  News Bk Van was conveyed instead being detached at Newton Abbot

Thanks for that, the first I’ve seen of the later 47 formation.  Annoyingly it does show up an issue with mine in that there is no L22.  So I need to replace my L22 with either another L25 or more interesting an L14 for 835.  (I think that’s right)

 

 

I wish I could find the reference i worked from for the Bristol TPO coach (possibly the text accompanying the photo I posted previously?). I am sure it can’t be an error transcribing the Cardiff TPO added to the Plymouth Liverpool service (which is the only thing I can see in the 46/47 carriage workings.  As I have only added diagrams to my notes where it has been confirmed in the timetable/carriage workings that it needs to be a specific coach.

 

  I think I used a 1949 working timetable and tried to match it to the 46/ 47 carriage workings because I didn’t have the required documents.  So it could be a transcription error between the two years (maybe with the above photo causing further confusion…).  Wish I’d kept better notes as to my sources (and really wish I could access a copy of the winter 47 working timetable Plymouth division, and carriage formations!  

[gwrrob]

 One of Newton's aircraft Castles, 5078 Beaufort ,heads west with a stopping service.

 

[The Stationmaster]

5 hours ago, The Fatadder said:

Thanks for that, the first I’ve seen of the later 47 formation.  Annoyingly it does show up an issue with mine in that there is no L22.  So I need to replace my L22 with either another L25 or more interesting an L14 for 835.  (I think that’s right)

 

 

I wish I could find the reference i worked from for the Bristol TPO coach (possibly the text accompanying the photo I posted previously?). I am sure it can’t be an error transcribing the Cardiff TPO added to the Plymouth Liverpool service (which is the only thing I can see in the 46/47 carriage workings.  As I have only added diagrams to my notes where it has been confirmed in the timetable/carriage workings that it needs to be a specific coach.

 

  I think I used a 1949 working timetable and tried to match it to the 46/ 47 carriage workings because I didn’t have the required documents.  So it could be a transcription error between the two years (maybe with the above photo causing further confusion…).  Wish I’d kept better notes as to my sources (and really wish I could access a copy of the winter 47 working timetable Plymouth division, and carriage formations!  

Winter 1947/48 Coaching Programme I cannot do - I only have the Winter ;46/'47 Programme plus the March 1947 amendments.  

Winter 1947 STT is no problem as it is sitting in my 'library' -  but I can't photocopy any of it because it is the entire set of GWR Winter 1947/48 STTs bound into a single, very thick, volume..  Only other Through Coach etc Programmes I have got are for war time (WWII) or 1930s

[gwrrob]

A bit of a sore head this morning after last nights game, looking forward to locking horns with @Mikkel on Wednesday  evening 

 

Meanwhile we see a few more of Beaufort.

 

[Mikkel]

13 minutes ago, gwrrob said:

A bit of a sore head this morning after last nights game, looking forward to locking horns with @Mikkel on Wednesday  evening 

 

I don't think you need to worry, but hopefully it will be a good fight 

 

I do have a proposition: We let you win, and in return all Danes get free backstage tours at Pendon for a year. I haven't cleared it with our team yet, but I'm sure they'd be thrilled.

 

[The Fatadder]

10 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Winter 1947/48 Coaching Programme I cannot do - I only have the Winter ;46/'47 Programme plus the March 1947 amendments.  

Winter 1947 STT is no problem as it is sitting in my 'library' -  but I can't photocopy any of it because it is the entire set of GWR Winter 1947/48 STTs bound into a single, very thick, volume..  Only other Through Coach etc Programmes I have got are for war time (WWII) or 1930s

I keep looking out for copies, but it seems the winter47 documents (presumably because they were the last) are highly sought after.  The last one selling for over £100!   Once such things are possible again I will drop an email to Steam and see what they have in the library, an hour with my phones camera and I will have what I need…

 

I think the library at Brunel university have a copy of both STT and coach program, but even before covid interfered I found every time I was in London for work they were closed so it was impossible to get there to view it.

[BMacdermott]

15 hours ago, The Fatadder said:

Thanks for that, the first I’ve seen of the later 47 formation.  Annoyingly it does show up an issue with mine in that there is no L22.  So I need to replace my L22 with either another L25 or more interesting an L14 for 835.  (I think that’s right)

 

Hello Rich

 

This is what we said in the intro to the TPO Mini-Poll: Although in his book, Great Western Coaches from 1890, Michael Harris indicates that L22 No.798 was in this train, we can find no evidence of that in the Carriage Working books.

 

Looking back at the 1946-1947 CWP clip above, I thought that - possibly - the LM TPOs were there to substitute for Diag.L23 Nos.812-814 which Harris notes as having delivery apparatus fitted in November 1946. Mike's amendments date to March 1947, so perhaps the formation changes relate to this?

 

Brian

[BMacdermott]

Results – GWR 00 Rolling Stock Mini-Poll No.3: TPO Stock

 

Many thanks to the 18 voters who took part. The number of votes to each item is shown in the left hand column and Comments Received are appended on a PDF as usual.

 

Please note that the results reflect the views of those who voted here and may not necessarily reflect those of the wider modelling community.

 

The results are pretty clear!

 

High Polling

16        L22

 

Middle Polling

8          L23

 

Low Polling

3          L25

2          L21

1          L13

1          L18

1          L24

1          L26

 

The Diag.K17 Van was also mentioned twice.

 

Tune in on Wednesday 7 July for: GWR 00 Rolling Stock Mini-Poll No.4: Selected NPCCS & Freight.

 

This will cover such as Banana, Fruit, Fish, Milk, Meat and Special Cattle Vans and will be a prelude to the following three Mini-Polls covering freight vehicles per se.

 

Brian (also on behalf of John, Chris & Ian)

 

GWR Mini-Poll No.3 TPO Comments Received.pdf

[BMacdermott]

Hello Rich

 

I have found your photo...and you are right, it is 'The North Mail'! It is on page 50 of Great Western Steam, 1934-1949, by Mike Arlett & David Lockett.

 

I wouldn't normally have a GWR per se book in my library but I gave Mike some help with the book and that is how I came to have the good fortune of getting John Lewis onto the 00 Wishlist Poll Team! (Mike and I are S&D fans!)

 

John had a hand in the caption which I reproduce below. (Please respect the copyright of the information.) I have also added the working from the 1935/1936 CWP - closest I can get to the photo, which is 1938.

 

Brian

 

[The Fatadder]

5 minutes ago, BMacdermott said:

Hello Rich

 

I have found your photo...and you are right, it is 'The North Mail'! It is on page 50 of Great Western Steam, 1934-1949, by Mike Arlett & David Lockett.

 

I wouldn't normally have a GWR per se book in my library but I gave Mike some help with the book and that is how I came to have the good fortune of getting John Lewis onto the 00 Wishlist Poll Team! (Mike and I are S&D fans!)

 

John had a hand in the caption which I reproduce below. (Please respect the copyright of the information.) I have also added the working from the 1935/1936 CWP - closest I can get to the photo, which is 1938.

 

Brian

Thats saved me a search through my books, while no location has been included I took the assumption that it was likely to be in Devon given the presence of a bulldog assisting on the front, coupled with it citing John in the caption as saying it was a Plymouth - Bristol TPO van.  Without the caption I would have suggested that the working was in fact the Cardiff van that was mentioned earlier. 

 

The 1946/7 CWP only has the the Cardiff van included in the working (I think as previously described) and I assume based on the fact Mike didnt previously mention it there was no change in the summer CWP notes.  So its back to that illusive winter 1947 CWP to verify.  I am assuming that more likely than not it is going to say there is a TPO from Plymouth to Bristol, and a different TPO then added at Bristol from Cardiff to Crew.

 

One day I will get photographs of the two critical documents for the winter of 1947 and be able to verify it properly.....

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, BMacdermott said:

Hello Rich

 

I have found your photo...and you are right, it is 'The North Mail'! It is on page 50 of Great Western Steam, 1934-1949, by Mike Arlett & David Lockett.

 

I wouldn't normally have a GWR per se book in my library but I gave Mike some help with the book and that is how I came to have the good fortune of getting John Lewis onto the 00 Wishlist Poll Team! (Mike and I are S&D fans!)

 

John had a hand in the caption which I reproduce below. (Please respect the copyright of the information.) I have also added the working from the 1935/1936 CWP - closest I can get to the photo, which is 1938.

 

Brian

 

You forgot to mention that the picture was taken on a Friday (unless an extra vehicle was being conveyed on another of the week)  

 

Another  interesting thing in that train is the Siphons formed between passenger portions - presumably done to simplify remarshalling at some point on the journey