A Nod To Brent - a friendly thread, filled with frivolity, cream teas and pasties. Longing for the happy days in the South Hams 1947.

[Mallard60022]

IN that Book about Summer 1957 workings in Cornwall it was TPO Plymouth Bristol and swapped for another TPO Van at Bristol (IIRC) onwards to Crewe. 

P

[BMacdermott]

Hello Mike

 

Mike Arlett's caption to the upper photo on that same page says that Norman Lockett took both photos on Wednesday 13 April 1938, about a mile east of Cornwood on the climb to Ivybridge.

 

I would have sworn it was ECS - but we live and learn, such is (partly) the value of running these Mini-Polls!

 

Brian

[The Stationmaster]

6 minutes ago, BMacdermott said:

Hello Mike

 

Mike Arlett's caption to the upper photo on that same page says that Norman Lockett took both photos on Wednesday 13 April 1938, about a mile east of Cornwood on the climb to Ivybridge.

 

I would have sworn it was ECS - but we live and learn, such is (partly) the value of running these Mini-Polls!

 

Brian

Interesting then Brian because the formation includes a Friday Only vehicle - which could have course have been amended by a Special Traffic Notice (hence also the additional Siphon formed behind the first three passenger coaches).   And i too would have thought it an ECS with vans marshalled between passenger stock - shows the value of occasionally looking at these old documents (if you can find them).

 

14 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

IN that Book about Summer 1957 workings in Cornwall it was TPO Plymouth Bristol and swapped for another TPO Van at Bristol (IIRC) onwards to Crewe. 

P

If that book came from a certain publisher (with an xpress in their name) and one of their particular authors I would buy a loaded salt wagon to go with it.  One person involved with that concern at one time was very prone to exaggeration and errors of fact on a grand scale and definitely did not like being pinned down by questions relating to what he was saying.  In one of their books the stuff discussed in the text famously bears minimal relationship to the. extracts from various official documents which accompany that text. 

[BMacdermott]

32 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

IN that Book about Summer 1957 workings in Cornwall it was TPO Plymouth Bristol and swapped for another TPO Van at Bristol (IIRC) onwards to Crewe. 

 

Hello Phil

 

Either the book you mention is wrong or - maybe - you aren't reading the CWP correctly.

 

My extract below is from Summer 1956. Notice that the TPO only goes Plymouth-Bristol. There are no other TPOs on that train (under normal circumstances). When the train gets to Pontypool Road, then one of Sorting Vans 801, 802 or 803 are attached, working Cardiff-Liverpool.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Brian

[The Fatadder]

9 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Interesting then Brian because the formation includes a Friday Only vehicle - which could have course have been amended by a Special Traffic Notice (hence also the additional Siphon formed behind the first three passenger coaches).   And i too would have thought it an ECS with vans marshalled between passenger stock - shows the value of occasionally looking at these old documents (if you can find them).

Out of interest what is the Friday Only vehicle (and how did you recognise it?)

 

I have tried identifying the coaches,

TPO L22

Collett Bow End third C54

Collett 70ft Third C46 or C50?

Collett Bow End BCK E127 

Siphon G O33

Siphon G O33

LMS full brake (no idea of diagram)

LMS composite (no idea of diagram)

LMS brake third (no idea of diagram)

Sunshine stock BCK E195?

O33 Siphon

[BMacdermott]

24 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

If that book came from a certain publisher (with an xpress in their name) and one of their particular authors I would buy a loaded salt wagon to go with it.  

 

Hello Mike

 

You and I have spoken before about certain books. It might be worth mentioning here - in very broad terms - that 'all that glisters isn't gold' and the old adage of 'buyer beware' still applies.

 

I have a book which I will call simply: Passenger Trains on Line A in Year B. From the 'real title', prospective purchasers would have been right to think that - as it was a popular line at a popular time - the photos would 'illustrate the text'.

 

Of 23 photos, just one is of Year B -  but that is a Relief that can't be checked against the text. Two other photos are of freight trains - arguably unwarranted in a passenger train book.

 

On the plus side, the text is high up the ratings of 'good' - although trying to comprehend what is already 'complicated matter ' through sentences comprising sometimes well over 100 words is a pain. (Most editorial styles will aim for about 20-40 words or so.)

 

Brian

[The Stationmaster]

12 minutes ago, The Fatadder said:

Out of interest what is the Friday Only vehicle (and how did you recognise it?)

 

I have tried identifying the coaches,

TPO L22

Collett Bow End third C54

Collett 70ft Third C46 or C50?

Collett Bow End BCK E127 

Siphon G O33

Siphon G O33

LMS full brake (no idea of diagram)

LMS composite (no idea of diagram)

LMS brake third (no idea of diagram)

Sunshine stock BCK E195?

O33 Siphon

The third North Road - Bristol vehicle is shown as FO and the return working is shown as SO.  So the booked working was that it only ran as part of the train on a Friday - no doubt due to heavier loadings on that day (Naval Leave??? or something else).  

 

However as it is in the train on a Wednesday (if the day thhphoto was taken was given correctly - which it probably was) that coach would have been shown as additional in a Special Traffic Notice for whatever reason.    A problem with all these printed documents such as STTs and Coach Programmes, or indeed Rule Books and anything else in that line, is that in some respects they are only as good as the amendments - as we saw with the 1946/47 Coaching programme where the LMS vehicle was taken out officially from March 1947.

 

With many operational books such as STTs and marshalling etc,  all the printed stuff was subject to alteration on a pre-planned basis.  Passenger and freight timetables and marshalling could be - and very often were altered in the relevant Weekly (Special Traffic) Notice and the Weekly Notice could be further amended in the Daily Notice; and that's  apart from permanent amendments being issued.  Also despite lots of checking and proof reading errors could get through and in any event things might change between a printed document going to press and its actually taking effect.  It can fairly reasonably be said that on the day of publication the printed documents were as accurate as they could be, but what actually happened could even then, and subsequently, be altered in various ways.  Add to that as far as trains are concerned - although this changed over the years - not only could Control make changes 'on the day' but even Station Masters in some cases had authority to add an extra vehicle or so provided the engine had sufficient power to keep time with the additional load.

 

Within reason it isn't too difficult to keep up with changes to things like Rule Books, the General Appendix and the Signalling Regulations because amendments and supplements do come to light.  So my GWR 1936 General Appendix is fully amended up to the time it was discontinued in 1960.  Almost the same goes for one of my copies of the 1936 GWR Signalling Regulations which is fully amended up to 1956 while another copy I have is fully amended up to 1948.  But on the other hand I have very few supplements to things like STTs and coach programmes and I have no weekly or daily notices (except for various ones I wrote myself long after the GWR had disappeared).  

 

Similarly the same can be said for Station Working Books as these too were subject to amendment reflecting permanent alterations to the STT and Coaching Programmes etc but in two places where I worked there were also daily alterations - called the 'Saloon List' at Paddington (which amended the Station Working Book on a daily basis) while at Swansea it was called 'Daily Orders' but was effectively exactly the same sort of thing showing altered formations etc.

 

In railway operating research in many areas we can never really do much better than getting a snapshot of things as they basically were (or should have been) at a particular date.  But obviously that doesn't mean research isn't worthwhile because it always will be, and can get even more interesting as you look into changes..

[Limpley Stoker]

I never paid much attention to the subject of travelling post offices ........... until now- it’s been a fascinating read over the past week. Did the Royal Mail sorters travel back with their vehicle when it was travelling light, (presumably it was during their working day) or was accommodation available for a stop over to enable them to staff a returning TPO ?

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Limpley Stoker said:

I never paid much attention to the subject of travelling post offices ........... until now- it’s been a fascinating read over the past week. Did the Royal Mail sorters travel back with their vehicle when it was travelling light, (presumably it was during their working day) or was accommodation available for a stop over to enable them to staff a returning TPO ?

Some of the longer distance Sorters might well have lodged or they changed over enroute (have a look at 'Night Mail' to see what happens with them).  On a short hop such Plymouth - Bristol and back within a shift they either stayed with the vehicle or maybe did part of the outward working on the cushions in the way that some newspaper packers did.

[BMacdermott]

Hello everyone

 

Reflecting on Mike's contribution (currently two posts up), the Carriage Working books are useful to have but for 'modelling accuracy' it is always good to go from actual photos or accounts of staff who were there.

 

I can't think where the exact details are in my files for the moment, but I know of an occasion on the S&D when a station down the line - maybe Sturminster Newton - had a loaded Cattle Wagon booked out north at 'freight rate'.

 

However, for reasons of expediency or maybe health of the cattle, the wagon was hooked on the back of an Up passenger to Bath (Green Park). Being on the rear on arrival, it was a simple enough matter to unhook and shunt to the yard where it joined a suitable northbound freight.

 

You won't find Maunsell 3-set + Cattle Wagon in the S&D carriage workings!

 

Brian

[Mallard60022]

4 hours ago, BMacdermott said:

 

Hello Phil

 

Either the book you mention is wrong or - maybe - you aren't reading the CWP correctly.

 

My extract below is from Summer 1956. Notice that the TPO only goes Plymouth-Bristol. There are no other TPOs on that train (under normal circumstances). When the train gets to Pontypool Road, then one of Sorting Vans 801, 802 or 803 are attached, working Cardiff-Liverpool.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Brian

 

I got the Plymouth Bristol bit correct.....then it says Cardiff to Liverpool  Nos 801, 2 or 3, (ex 01.25 Crewe Cardiff). Did the train go to Cardiff? Apologies fore being vague but I know little of this GWR stuff. I believe the book also suggests the Second X just to Bristol, was a an odd coach having arrived in Plymouth on a Fish Train the previous day! 

 

5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Interesting then Brian because the formation includes a Friday Only vehicle - which could have course have been amended by a Special Traffic Notice (hence also the additional Siphon formed behind the first three passenger coaches).   And i too would have thought it an ECS with vans marshalled between passenger stock - shows the value of occasionally looking at these old documents (if you can find them).

 

If that book came from a certain publisher (with an xpress in their name) and one of their particular authors I would buy a loaded salt wagon to go with it.  One person involved with that concern at one time was very prone to exaggeration and errors of fact on a grand scale and definitely did not like being pinned down by questions relating to what he was saying.  In one of their books the stuff discussed in the text famously bears minimal relationship to the. extracts from various official documents which accompany that text. 

Yup, In another Volume about SR workings, it suggested a Hall class on Diversion west off the WR main line and now through Seaton Junction, was called to stop there for Water by a gang of big wigs there to help sort out the now crowded train paths. Seems they had got the Tender capacity of the loco from the Station Master's son and his Ian Allen ABC and were worried it would run dry! Nah, there are no Cranes at SJ. They could have suggested Axminster or, if too late, Honiton for a top up. Such fun.......

P

 

[The Stationmaster]

Something which was leading me astray - and perhaps BrianMcD as well - was the marshalling of Siphons between passenger carrying sections of the 12.00 noon ex Penzance.  I had in mind from somewhere that this was prohibited.  However a bit of delving has revealed that it was not prohibited until January 1951 on the WR.  

 

However it should be noted that it was not permitted to marshal six or four wheeled vehicles of any description between bogie vehicles in a train conveying passengers according to the 1936 Appendix (and subsequently).   I haven't checked what the earlier situation was.

[The Stationmaster]

9 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

 

I got the Plymouth Bristol bit correct.....then it says Cardiff to Liverpool  Nos 801, 2 or 3, (ex 01.25 Crewe Cardiff). Did the train go to Cardiff? Apologies fore being vague but I know little of this GWR stuff. I believe the book also suggests the Second X just to Bristol, was a an odd coach having arrived in Plymouth on a Fish Train the previous day! 

P

 

Phil if you look at this snip from Brian's most recent post for the 12.00 noon ex Penzance (shown below) you will see that Note Q refers to the vehicles from Cardiff being attached at Pontypool Road although for some reason the \Notes' column does not have all the entries.  However looking at the train over the years the Cardiff portion/mail vehicle was consistently attached at Pontypool Road.

 

Perhaps in the hope of making you feel slightly more at home the Winter 1941 programme shows the train conveyed, rear, two SR vans from Chard Jcn attached at Taunton.  The one for York was detached at Bristol to connect with the 21.40  from Swindon to York while the one for Carlisle worked through to Crewe where it connected for Carlisle

 

[The Fatadder]

I’ve found another photo of the Plymouth - Bristol TPO working in Great Western Steam 34-49 by Lockett pg127.  It’s a September 1948 shot, clearly showing the TPO. Quite hard to make out the coach details (other than the TPO.

 

[Coach bogie]

There are several 1950's shots in the Blenkinsop 'Shadows of the Great Western' etc. showing the single TPO vehicles at the head of North- South trains. The siphons no longer appear in the later 50's years.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Clive Mortimore]

8 hours ago, The Fatadder said:

Out of interest what is the Friday Only vehicle (and how did you recognise it?)

 

I have tried identifying the coaches,

TPO L22

Collett Bow End third C54

Collett 70ft Third C46 or C50?

Collett Bow End BCK E127 

Siphon G O33

Siphon G O33

LMS full brake (no idea of diagram)

LMS composite (no idea of diagram)

LMS brake third (no idea of diagram)

Sunshine stock BCK E195?

O33 Siphon

LMS full brake diagram D1854 or D 2007, no visual difference, the D1854 could carry 8 tons and the D2007 could carry 12 tons. There is a possibility that it is an all steel D1715 as there is no underframe trussing visible. 

LMS composite diagram D1716, corridor side. 

LMS brake third diagrams D1851 (one set of double doors) or D1852 (two sets of double doors) or D1905 or D1969. It looks like it has shallow sliding vets so could be a D1851 or 1852.

[Dunsignalling]

5 hours ago, BMacdermott said:

Hello everyone

 

Reflecting on Mike's contribution (currently two posts up), the Carriage Working books are useful to have but for 'modelling accuracy' it is always good to go from actual photos or accounts of staff who were there.

 

I can't think where the exact details are in my files for the moment, but I know of an occasion on the S&D when a station down the line - maybe Sturminster Newton - had a loaded Cattle Wagon booked out north at 'freight rate'.

 

However, for reasons of expediency or maybe health of the cattle, the wagon was hooked on the back of an Up passenger to Bath (Green Park). Being on the rear on arrival, it was a simple enough matter to unhook and shunt to the yard where it joined a suitable northbound freight.

 

You won't find Maunsell 3-set + Cattle Wagon in the S&D carriage workings!

 

Brian

There's a photo in (I think) one of Ivo Peters' books of such a set heading south. In between the loco and coaches, there's a sheeted 5-plank. Caption states it contained urgent loco parts for Templecombe.

 

It was probably a one off with such wagons normally going in goods trains, but it's a safe bet it would never appear in a CWN.

 

John

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

There's a photo in (I think) one of Ivo Peters' books of such a set heading south. In between the loco and coaches, there's a sheeted 5-plank. Caption states it contained urgent loco parts for Templecombe.

 

It was probably a one off with such wagons normally going in goods trains, but it's a safe bet it would never appear in a CWN.

 

John

Wouldn't be in a CWN but it would have been in a Notice or possibly witred out as a short term item.  100% legitimate of course - provided the wagon was branded XP

[BMacdermott]

15 hours ago, Coach bogie said:

There are several 1950's shots in the Blenkinsop 'Shadows of the Great Western' etc. showing the single TPO vehicles at the head of North- South trains. The siphons no longer appear in the later 50's years.

Mike Wiltshire

Thanks Mike

 

I have those books and have just enjoyed going through them looking at the photos.

 

In 'Echoes', the photo dated 28 August 1957 shows the northbound single van train near Totnes. The author notes the TPO lineside apparatus on the Up side that the train is just passing - so we now know at least one location.

 

My guess is that - had a bag been on the apparatus for collection - he would have noted that in the caption (but that's just me speculating). 

 

I was also interested to see the car train photo in 'Reflections', dated 10 January 1959. You don't see many of those! (You will be able to vote for Mogo Vans in a forthcoming Mini-Poll.)

 

Brian

[The Stationmaster]

Locations of 'Mail Bag Apparatus' were listed in the Sectional Appendix and I expect the 1960 edition would probably be the best for the Western although I have checked in an older one to see what I can find.  My 1960 SA collection is unfortunately a massive way short of complete, indeed hardly a 'collection' so all I can offer thus far is -

 

Maidenhead      Down Main.  880 yds east of station

Highworth Jcn   Down (2 standards provided)   2,330 yds east of Swindon Jcn station

Highbridge         Up  562 yds east of Highbridge for Burnham-on-Sea station

 

The 1939 Appendix to the Section 6 STT (Totnes - Penzance) lists -

Near Malt Mill Bridge  Up   630 yds west of Totnes station

Near Liskeard               Down  340 yds west of Liskeard station

  "            "                       Up.       335 yds west of Liskeard station          

 

Mention of the 'chequer board' to mark the site of mail bag apparatus first appeared in GWR Instructions in February 1939

Edited July 5, 2021 by The Stationmaster
Correct typo

[gwrrob]

A few more of 5078.

 

[St Enodoc]

9 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Near Liskeard               Down  340 yds west of Liskeard station

  "            "                       Up.       335 yds west of Liskeard station  

Which, as I understand it, is why the WoE TPO had vans marshalled with pick-up/set-down gear on either side, as there was no convenient place to turn the train west of Plymouth.

[Mallard60022]

11 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Which, as I understand it, is why the WoE TPO had vans marshalled with pick-up/set-down gear on either side, as there was no convenient place to turn the train west of Plymouth.

Serious question. Why did they not use Turntables to turn Coaches? There were several available west of Plymuff.

P

[The Fatadder]

27 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

Serious question. Why did they not use Turntables to turn Coaches? There were several available west of Plymuff.

P

wasted effort?  You only need one coach with equipment on the northern side of the tracks given fewer collections / drops on the East bound TPO than the west bound,  so it was easier to have a single coach with nets/ equipment on both sides (L23) than to have to turn 6 coaches at each destination.  (The offset corridors meaning the whole rake would need changing) 

[BMacdermott]

Hello Phil

 

The six TPO vehicles in the Penzance Postal (10.10pm) were all 'offset gangways'. Turn one, turn the lot. Easier to leave 'as is'.

 

Brian