Driving standards

[ParkeNd]

  

 

 

ParkeNd: Can you please post the reference source for that road test, I'd like to read more.

 

 

 

 I had never heard of the Mitsubishi Colt CZ2 you mentioned earlier so I had to look it up - as I did with the tyres too - so that I could answer with some acquired knowledge.  But pleased to oblige. See para 5 of the Autocar Review below for reference to the bouncy ride. The comment on it's appearance and type of car that it appears to be is my opinion.

 

 

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/mitsubishi/colt/first-drives/mitsubishi-colt-1.3-cz2

Edited August 10, 2015 by ParkeNd

[beast66606]

The reason these threads get locked is because eventually the handbags or my dads bigger than your dad attitudes come out - if it's kept sensible then the discussion can plod along, if we argue like kids then we will be treated like kids - and our toys will be removed.

[leopardml2341]

Wasn't meant to be offensive Andy, just a description of the way you are coming across (to me) with reference to modern driving and modern cars and a certain hair shirt attitude to driving in general.

I drive with the views that:

 

I aim to get it right each time I sit behind a wheel

 

There is always something to learn

 

If the last drive wasn't good enough (against my standards) then next time I have an opportunity to improve

 

I agree with your comment "You don't need to do any of that to be an 'expert' car driver, though I concede it gives you a better understanding of the challenges facing the drivers of such vehicles."

 

And that's exactly the point I was trying to make, if some of the self professed experts were to try such skills it would, no doubt, improve their driving skills as a direct result of having ".....a better understanding of the challenges facing the drivers of such vehicles."

[leopardml2341]

I had never heard of the Mitsubishi Colt CZ2 you mentioned earlier so I had to look it up - as I did with the tyres too - so that I could answer with some acquired knowledge. But pleased to oblige. See para 5 of the Autocar Review below for reference to the bouncy ride. The comment on it's appearance and type of car that it appears to be is my opinion.

 

 

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/mitsubishi/colt/first-drives/mitsubishi-colt-1.3-cz2

Thanks for that 'objective' review

 

Also from Autocar, their review on the model i drive for comparison:

 

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/mitsubishi/colt/first-drives/mitsubishi-colt-1.5-di-d

Edited August 10, 2015 by leopardml2341

[leopardml2341]

The reason these threads get locked is because eventually the handbags or my dads bigger than your dad attitudes come out - if it's kept sensible then the discussion can plod along, if we argue like kids then we will be treated like kids - and our toys will be removed.

Agree entirely, the cars other people prefer or choose to drive and the way in which they drive them are of little concern to me, as long as they do all of that in accordance with the rules of the road in a safe and courteous manner; roads are shared spaces for all.

[Arthur]

I drive with the views that:

I aim to get it right each time I sit behind a wheel

There is always something to learn

If the last drive wasn't good enough (against my standards) then next time I have an opportunity to improve

I agree with your comment "You don't need to do any of that to be an 'expert' car driver, though I concede it gives you a better understanding of the challenges facing the drivers of such vehicles."

And that's exactly the point I was trying to make, if some of the self professed experts were to try such skills it would, no doubt, improve their driving skills as a direct result of having ".....a better understanding of the challenges facing the drivers of such vehicles."

Fair enough Andy, though none of that was what I was referring to. Just this idea that modern cars with gadgets and gizmos make us less skilled drivers.

 

I have to confess, that when I used to take the sports bike out, my criteria for a successful journey was returning home without having soiled my pants...

 

 

Joking!!! A bit.

[Horsetan]

....this idea that modern cars with gadgets and gizmos make us less skilled drivers.....;

 

Some of the gadgets may make us more distracted drivers....

[leopardml2341]

It would be interesting to see how a driver who has only driven cars with loadsa gadgets and safety features adapts to one without.

 

A bit like the quantum change in technique between rwd and fwd driving?

[leopardml2341]

Some of the gadgets may make us more distracted drivers....

....and distraction will likely lead to a drop in the standards of observed driving.

[Arthur]

 

Don't disagree with that Ivan, certainly as far as Sat Nav is concerned. Fiddling with it whilst driving is probably just as bad as using your phone.

 

The gizmos I'm referring to are those working quietly (metaphorically if not literally) in the background, ABS, traction control etc.

[Allegheny1600]

I've formed the opinion that it's not (outright) speed that kills per se but impatience.

I used to quite enjoy driving but now I find that almost everyone is in such a hurry, driving is a chore. No doubt these others find it much the same and want to get it over with as soon as possible.

[Guest]

Don't disagree with that Ivan, certainly as far as Sat Nav is concerned. Fiddling with it whilst driving is probably just as bad as using your phone.

I think the instructions are more of a problem. Add a bit of brain-fade and they become imperatives and you 'Turn right now!' like Pavlof's dog.

 

I have sat-nav on the bike and sometimes have the opposite problem. The other week it told me to turn left so I went down the next road on the left. When in fact it really did mean turn left down that bloke's drive because it is also a bridleway.

[Pacific231G]

Has there been a change of law recently whereby the 30 mph limit does not apply after 6-00 pm? It certainly seems so in this part of Greater Manchester. I'm not talking about people doing 35 either, but doing near-motorway speeds down urban roads. Absolute loons.

No. If it's anything like London, speed limits only apply when passing speed cameras and elsewhere they represent the minimum driving speed under all circumstances. Because speed is the only measurable driving offence and can easily be detected by speed cameras, there is no longer a need for any other policing of driving standards. 

 

Also, under the 1996 Motor Vehicles in Urban Areas Act. the prohibitoon on using hand held devices including mobile phones while driving does not apply to drivers of SUVs, white vans,  television presenters while being fimed, sales representatives and parents transporting children. All guidance given by the highway code specifically exempts drivers of company cars, drivers of cars defined under the act as fulfilling the "executive car" ammendment, trainee motocyle riders engaged in the delivery of cooked food and uniformed cyclists    

 

Driving courteously and considerately is an indictable offence under the act.

[ParkeNd]

It would be interesting to see how a driver who has only driven cars with loadsa gadgets and safety features adapts to one without.

 

A bit like the quantum change in technique between rwd and fwd driving?

I have been pondering this question.

 

Working in the opposite direction I started out my own car ownership in 1967 with a 1957 Austin A35 - which needed a full engine recondition, new shock absorbers, and rust repairs even with just 35,000 miles covered. True you didn't need to advance the spark, it had synchromesh on all gears - but not even a heater let alone a radio. It was replaced three years later by a pristine Wolseley 1500 with failed synchromesh on second gear - but double de-clutching was no pain and even a bit sporty. Since then I have progressed through a couple of Minis, several Renaults - and finally arrived at the company car phase with Sierras, Montego estates, Mondeo Ghias and finally three BMW's - and none of these had much in the way of gizmos - electric windows and a stereo. Only since I have been buying my own cars after the 55 years old redundancy phase started have the cars had any gizmos to speak of. The rear wheel drive BMW's cornered on rails after a few FWD cars - certainly no quantum leap for a driver going either way.

 

The past three Golf's have increased rapidly in sophistication - so only over the last six years have the gizmos been more in evidence. Cruise Control, rear camera, and radar park assist (a vision device - doesn't park for you) have been the most welcome. The only item that took me a while to get used to was the Electronic Handbrake now fitted to current Mk 7 VW Golfs. Until you have found the two sections covering Electronic Handbrake and Auto Hold (being 78 pages apart in the handbook) life is tough - but great now. 

 

Going backwards in time? - probably only someone who had cut their teeth on an electronic handbrake equipped car (and no other) would have any difficulty going back to 1957 cars - even the Wolseley 1500 onwards had radial ply tyres. To find a real difference that affected peoples ability to drive then you would need to go back to cars with rod operated brakes, manual spark advance, three speed gearboxes, vacuum wipers etc.

 

Certainly the last three Golfs have been the safest and most stress free to drive over long distances - front and rear disc brakes, drama free braking, quiet, fast turbo petrol engines, superb confident ride and handling, air conditioning, fantastic headlights etc etc.

Edited August 10, 2015 by ParkeNd

[Arthur]

 

Any decent sensible driver, getting into a vehicle for the first time, will drive it cautiously until they get used to it's feel and capabilities.

 

An idiot is an idiot in any vehicle. Is that type of driver going to have a rude awakening when, say, there's no ABS to kick in at the last minute? Maybe,

 

 

I'm not sure about the point here.

 

We shouldn't add new safety features to cars because it down skills drivers who then cannot safely drive older vehicles?

[MJI]

[Recently having had, as a student, a C+E driver of 20 years experience or more, working as a drive..who genuinely thought it was 'legal' to exceed the speed limit whilst overtaking!...Even the lad sat next to him was amazed at what he heard.

 

Actually this is a grey area as many Police think that if you cut your TED to a minimum you are a lot safer than keeping exactly to limit.

 

Traffic Police I have known did not book for this as they considered it sensible driving.

 

I would say that not using full acceleration to overtake is a danger.

[jjb1970]

My wife's car is a Golf VII and it is a terrific car. I must admit it was a slow burner for me as it looks like pretty much all Golfs going back decades and there is nothing about it that leaps out at me however over time it has been one of those cars that does everything it's ever been asked to do and does it very well, whilst conventional the cabin ergonomics are superb and it has a brilliant ride/handling balance. She has the 1.4TSI highly blown turbo petrol with DSG twin clutch automated gear box and that is a staggering impressive combination. The engine gives warm hatch performance with diesel like economy and the gear changes are seamless and well timed. Whilst it is not the car I'd have chosen when she selected it I have to admit it is an absolutely brilliant car I'd recommend to anybody 100%.

[MJI]

I do enjoy these threads, but there have been several similar ones over the RMWeb years, covering similar issues.

 

Do you remember one where Chubber had a number of us going with references to "cruising and fast lanes" on the motorway and the handy "picnic and viewing spots" the department of transport provide off the hard shoulder. It was hilarious and many hadn't twigged his tongue in cheek line for several days. It was of course well before the coming and going of the disagree button. I'd love to find that old thread, have searched but to no avail.

 

Neil

 

Ah the wheel changing spots!

 

As if they thought I would change an offside wheel on the hard shoulder when there was a little parking place 100m up the road.

[Glorious NSE]

Fair enough but as Hayfield said, Why not put the little ones in on the pavement side?

If it's hard to do on your own drive, park the other way round!

Nice assumption that we all live somewhere that has a drive and a pavement...our road is narrow, with metal railings along the curb, so you have to park on the left facing the correct direction (or you won't get out) which means that you have to have the child seat on the same side as the driver, or you can't get them in and out.

 

Trust me that if i'm trying to put a child in or take them out i'm not doing it just to annoy you. I certainly won't have swung the door out "in your face", but if i've started doing it when you turn up then for safety I do need to finish the job... 

[Black Sheep]

I prefer driving older cars.

 

I learnt on cars with power steering but no other driving aids (ok, servo assisted brakes, disc on the front)

 

My first car was a mk1 fiesta, had the gear linkage slip one day far from home so quickly learnt to double de clutch which I continued to do so for the rest of the summer until it could be adjusted.

 

I can drive a Morris Minor as easily as I can the wife's Kia Cee'd.

 

I don't count as a young driver anymore (lived through the miners strike but too young to remember) but we're not all innept

[MJI]

Older cars. I used to own them years ago, now I run under 15 year old cars.

 

Repmobiles do need to be more wary of them.

 

Just because they are old, does not mean they are slow, or do not handle.

 

The amount of trouble I used to get with reps in their repmobiles was annoying,  the best way of dealing with them was up steep hills, foot to the floor, bye bye repmobile.

 

They had this thing that they were not allowed to be overtaken. And if a 20 year old car passes them their willy will drop off.

 

Does not matter if said car is tuned, is running rally car suspension and engine parts, can go off the speedo, and can out handle many sports cars.

[MJI]

The above car had a brake servo, no ABS, no power steering. But was fine even with sticky wide tyres.

 

4 speed box was a pain as first was rather tall.

[Reorte]

I'm not sure about the point here.

 

We shouldn't add new safety features to cars because it down skills drivers who then cannot safely drive older vehicles?

Safety features probably don't do anything about skills (other than for those so hopeless they shouldn't be on the road in any car) since they should rarely, if ever, kick in. The type of skills lost with modern cars are things like getting the choke in the right place and changing gears without synchromesh, and I don't see much of an issue with them going.

 

Any time someone relies on a safety feature it's a sign that their skill is lacking (rather an oversimplifcation admittedlty, and no-one is perfect anyway), so yes, perhaps there are people who cannot drive older vehicles safely. Such people existed back then too though, the difference is now that they're ending up in a box less, and taking fewer people out with them. Where to draw the line? I'm certainly not one for saying "if it saves one life" but they mostly don't seem to be at the wrapping up in cotton wool level. I wonder more about features like automatic headlights, since turning a handy switch once or twice per journey hardly feels like a labour worth saving.

[Black Sheep]

I disagree, the skills lost in modern cars is thinking for oneself instead of assuming 'the car will save me' and driving nose to tail in fog at high speed on the motorway.

 

My old fiesta took more distance to stop than a modern golf twice it's weight, it taught me to read the road ahead and to always adjust and adapt to my surroundings based on what's going on.

 

I'll bow out of the debate for the afternoon with this quote:

"everyone should learn to drive in a Morris minio, it'd reduce tailgating" -practical classics mag

[Trevellan]

Given some of the comments to date, I thought it might be helpful to look at driving standards as part of wider transport policy. I apologise in advance if I duplicate points made in previous posts.

 

First, a bit of context. I passed my driving test in June 1972, going on to add motorcycle entitlement  in 1981, PCV (then PSV) in 1982 and LGV C+E (HGV class 1) in 2001. I have covered many thousands of miles as a professional driver, but have also been heavily involved in transport policy work. These days I work as a freelance, both self-employed and PAYE, the latter currently being part-time bus driving.

 

It is my belief that driving standards in Britain have declined noticeably over many years. At present I estimate that 30-40% of all drivers require some sort of remedial training, though mostly those without any advanced training, e.g. PCV, LGV or IAMs. I also believe there is no such thing as a perfect driver. We all make errors of judgement on occasions, for a variety of reasons. What advanced training does is to lessen the chances of this happening, largely through greater hazard perception and awareness.

 

There is currently a policy debate going on about shortages of professional drivers, both PCV and LGV, but this comes as no surprise to me. In the last decade I have witnessed an increasing trend to raise standards through initiatives like the Driver Certificate of Professional Competence (CPC) and on-board telemetry, e.g. Isotrak, RIBAS etc. Professional drivers are under increasing pressure and not all of this is for the right reasons. To add insult to injury there is currently a consultation being undertaken by DfT which will formalise expectations of professional driver conduct and the consequences of breaches: https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/vocational-driver-conduct-revised-statutory-document.

 

I have no problem with raising standards, but to concentrate on professional drivers while other road users are not subject to similar principles is, I believe, a flawed approach. In virtually every form of public transport, whether it be buses and coaches, railways, aviation or shipping, where traffic increases there tends to be an exponential rise in regulation. In the case of private motoring, I would say the opposite is true. When I am driving buses I always aim to be a true professional, offering my customers a smooth and comfortable journey while attempting to be a true knight of the road. I try to be patient with other road users, but it is not an exaggeration to say that I can point to a number of incidents on every trip where these people (mostly private motorists) fall below acceptable standards.

 

I could write an article on this topic, but will conclude this piece by stating that driving standards will not be raised across the board until there is a cross-party political approach to the issue. Given that politicians are usually afraid of offending the motoring vote, this is unlikely to happen, yet it could yield significant benefits. Every road traffic incident has an economic cost by delaying goods and people, as well as tying up the police and other emergency services. A real crackdown on bad driving would therefore save money for an increasingly cash-strapped police service and NHS. All it will take is common sense and the will to do it, and therein lies the rub.