Driving standards

[PatB]

You do realise the physical/mental impossibility of that, don't you? Even Judge Dredd had his books to refer to... ;-)

 

D4.

 

What worries me is not that so many people are ignorant of even quite basic laws, but that, when they do want to find out what the law is, many will ignore the freely available and not horribly difficult to understand (in Oz, at least) online copies of the actual legislation but will, instead, ask their favourite online forum where they will receive at least 15 different answers from those equally ignorant, most or all of which will be wrong and even those which are not will almost certainly only be so by accident.

 

Mind you, we've a slot on local radio where a traffic policeman answers questions from the public and I've heard him give several answers which I know to be factually wrong, so it's not just an online problem of the blind leading the blind.

[298]

IMO speed limited vehicles are dangerous not ideal

 

There are - albeit random and unexpected - when you just need that extra 2-3 mph to get you out of a tricky situation such as the motorway joiner that refuses to match his speed (and observation) to lane 1 and you've got a LGV up your backside through no fault of your own. i.e. a 56mph limited vehicle when the actual legal limit for it was 60 mph. (the Europeans have got a lot to answer for). Likewise, joining a motorway, thinking that you've got 60mph to play with and the limiter kicks in on the entry slip just as you're getting ahead of the LGV doing anywhere between 55 and 60-ish.

 

 

Unfortunately that's a situation where a Traffic Officer would have acknowledged as necessary but someone in a Camera Van would initiate a process whereby you have to go and pay to sit in a room for four hours with a fairly broad cross section of society's drivers whilst learning that the speed limits on some roads are actually higher than you thought (see earlier about a single lane road with a kerb separating the opposite carriageway). Hence me using the speed limiters much more than cruise control, although they don't stop the car from overspeeding when going down hill or if you floor the accelerator for quickly getting out of sticky situations like you mention.

 

When I test drove an Electric car, the salesman gave me quite a scare story about how you need to manage the speed and energy useage so you don't waste power maintaining momentum going up hills, but accelerate so you're at the limit at the bottom. This might be true if you're hyper-mileing in the Rockies or on empty roads without Reps in German saloon cars behind but in reality I'm more likely to be winning the traffic light race up to the speed limit but one pedal driving to decelerate where possible.

[Baby Deltic]

Does it change lane when you signal?

 

If it does it is working fine.

 

Highway code 133.

 

If the usual routine is to not signal they are doing it wrong.

 

What about changing verges?

[ejstubbs]

...ignorance of the law is no excuse...

 

The proper formulation of the principle is "ignorance of the law is no defence".  If you are indeed ignorant of the law then that would be a perfectly valid excuse* for breaking it, but you couldn't put it forward as a reason to be found not guilty.  You could, however, use it as part of a plea in mitigation (ie to try to get a more lenient sentence) once found guilty, eg: "Sorry M'Lud I am used to driving my own motorhome and I didn't realise that the one I hired was limited to 60mph on dual carriageways rather then 70mph because it was in the higher weight category."

 

(Then again, speed cameras can't tell what weight category your motorhome is in, so the only way to get nicked in that instance would be if a switched-on police officer caught you on a speed gun.)

 

* First definition of the noun in OED: "A reason or explanation given to justify a fault or offence."

[newbryford]

Does it change lane when you signal?

 

If it does it is working fine.

 

Highway code 133.

 

If the usual routine is to not signal they are doing it wrong.

 

 

The car I was in did not change lanes when signalling - that would be even more dangerous! Signalling is to show intention before and during the act.

I should have used "it's quite common" that folk don't signal when pulling back in a lane after overtaking on a multi-lane road.

[chriswright03]

The proper formulation of the principle is "ignorance of the law is no defence".  If you are indeed ignorant of the law then that would be a perfectly valid excuse* for breaking it, but you couldn't put it forward as a reason to be found not guilty.  You could, however, use it as part of a plea in mitigation (ie to try to get a more lenient sentence) once found guilty, eg: "Sorry M'Lud I am used to driving my own motorhome and I didn't realise that the one I hired was limited to 60mph on dual carriageways rather then 70mph because it was in the higher weight category."

 

(Then again, speed cameras can't tell what weight category your motorhome is in, so the only way to get nicked in that instance would be if a switched-on police officer caught you on a speed gun.)

 

* First definition of the noun in OED: "A reason or explanation given to justify a fault or offence."

You are right of course it is defence and not excuse just me typing in layman's terms as opposed to quoting correctly.  My bad as they say.

[ejstubbs]

But the (rather confused) wording in the highway code seems a little at odds with that, essentially saying that the speed limit in the UK is 30 mph unless signs show otherwise.

 

It doesn't say that.  In Rule 123 it says: "The 30 mph limit usually applies to all traffic on all roads with street lighting unless signs show otherwise."  And in Rule 130 its says: "The presence of street lights generally means that there is a 30 mph (48 km/h) speed limit unless otherwise specified."

 

By no means every road has street lighting.  Motorways often do have street slights, but AIUI they are a special case where the limit is 70 simply by virtue of the road being a motorway, unless a more restrictive limit is signposted (ie they work "the other way round") so they don't need NSL signs for lit sections.

[Coryton]

It doesn't say that.  In Rule 123 it says: "The 30 mph limit usually applies to all traffic on all roads with street lighting unless signs show otherwise."  And in Rule 130 its says: "The presence of street lights generally means that there is a 30 mph (48 km/h) speed limit unless otherwise specified."

 

By no means every road has street lighting.  Motorways often do have street slights, but AIUI they are a special case where the limit is 70 simply by virtue of the road being a motorway, unless a more restrictive limit is signposted (ie they work "the other way round") so they don't need NSL signs for lit sections.

 

Ah.

 

I was referring to: "A speed limit of 30 miles per hour (mph) or 48 kilometres per hour (km/h) usually applies, unless you see signs showing otherwise."  (which was an introductory comment on speed limits, not specifically about roads in built-up areas)

 

I thought this was in an on-line version of the Highway Code but I see now it's on the gov.uk website but not actually part of the highway code.

[PaulCheffus]

The usual routine within the UK is not to signal when returning back to lane 2 after overtaking in lane 3 ( or 2 to 1 etc) . Unless you gave a left signal to disable the system, the lane following system would naturally try to steer it back into lane 3 meaning that the driver had to apply a bit more pressure to the steering to make the car go back to lane 2, resulting in an uncomfortable little shuffle - and no doubt disconcerting to following drivers.

Hi

 

When I was taught to drive I was taught to always indicate when returning back to the lane I had left. My car has lane assist and I tried it tonight without indicating. It wasn't difficult to override the automatic move back to the lane I was trying to leave without any sign of a wobble.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[ejstubbs]

It used to be the rule (or seemed to be, anyway) that an 'anomalous' speed limit (e.g., 40 mph in a built-up-area) had to have repeater signs at fixed intervals. That doesn't seem to be the case now.

 

It still is the rule, although it was relaxed in 2012 to allow repeater signs not to be placed along "short lengths of carriageway".  This helpful document clarifies what "short" means, as follows:

 

[repeater signs] need not be placed ... along a length of road which is subject to the speed limit indicated by that

sign if that length of road:

(a) is subject to a speed limit of 20 mph and is shorter than 200 metres;

(b) is subject to a speed limit of 30 mph, is shorter than 200 metres and does not

have a system of carriageway lighting furnished by lamps lit by electricity;

© is subject to a speed limit of 40 mph and is shorter than 250 metres;

(d) is subject to a speed limit of 50 mph and is shorter than 350 metres; or

(e) is subject to a speed limit of 60 mph, is shorter than 400 metres and is a dual

carriageway road or a motorway.

 

Note point (b) above: it is actually not permitted to put repeater signs in a 30 limit if it is a 30 limit by virtue of having street lighting.  That is stated on the very first page of the document linked above.  (This is in contrast to NSL repeater signs, which aren't particularly common, but are permitted.)

 

Note as well that there is a rather sneaky get-out for the rapidly-proliferating 20mph limits.  If the sign at the entry to the 20mph limit says that you are entering a "zone" then repeater signs are not required at all.  One thing I'm grateful about with the Edinburgh 20mph limits is that they haven't taken that option: the 20 limits are signed normally, and also have reminder markings on the road surface (although I'm not sure what legal force those have, if any).  So at least you have little excuse for not knowing that you are in a 20 limit (not that the police seem to be making any great efforts to enforce them anyway, at least not since the first flurry of activity when the limits started to come in to force).

 

(By the way: for the avoidance of doubt, the text quoted by chriswright03 in post 4788 is taken from the confused.com web site, not from either the Highway Code or any of the relevant UK legislation.)

[duncan]

I thought they had increased the limit for HGVs on single carriageways to 50 a few years ago?

 

 

Beware, only in England & Wales, still 40mph in Scotland (except as someone noted, parts of the A9)

[APOLLO]

 

Brit15

[chriswright03]

It still is the rule, although it was relaxed in 2012 to allow repeater signs not to be placed along "short lengths of carriageway".  This helpful document clarifies what "short" means, as follows:

 

[repeater signs] need not be placed ... along a length of road which is subject to the speed limit indicated by that

sign if that length of road:

(a) is subject to a speed limit of 20 mph and is shorter than 200 metres;

(b) is subject to a speed limit of 30 mph, is shorter than 200 metres and does not

have a system of carriageway lighting furnished by lamps lit by electricity;

© is subject to a speed limit of 40 mph and is shorter than 250 metres;

(d) is subject to a speed limit of 50 mph and is shorter than 350 metres; or

(e) is subject to a speed limit of 60 mph, is shorter than 400 metres and is a dual

carriageway road or a motorway.

 

Note point (b) above: it is actually not permitted to put repeater signs in a 30 limit if it is a 30 limit by virtue of having street lighting.  That is stated on the very first page of the document linked above.  (This is in contrast to NSL repeater signs, which aren't particularly common, but are permitted.)

 

Note as well that there is a rather sneaky get-out for the rapidly-proliferating 20mph limits.  If the sign at the entry to the 20mph limit says that you are entering a "zone" then repeater signs are not required at all.  One thing I'm grateful about with the Edinburgh 20mph limits is that they haven't taken that option: the 20 limits are signed normally, and also have reminder markings on the road surface (although I'm not sure what legal force those have, if any).  So at least you have little excuse for not knowing that you are in a 20 limit (not that the police seem to be making any great efforts to enforce them anyway, at least not since the first flurry of activity when the limits started to come in to force).

 

(By the way: for the avoidance of doubt, the text quoted by chriswright03 in post 4788 is taken from the confused.com web site, not from either the Highway Code or any of the relevant UK legislation.)

There is something weird going on with the quoted post numbers because when I look 4788 is nothing to do with me.  I also don't recall saying it was from the Highway code.

 

EDIT: 4788 is a post from me but nothing to do with speed limits so I am unsure what you are getting at.

[TheQ]

 

(Then again, speed cameras can't tell what weight category your motorhome is in, so the only way to get nicked in that instance would be if a switched-on police officer caught you on a speed gun.)

 

* First definition of the noun in OED: "A reason or explanation given to justify a fault or offence."

But Digital cameras report the speed of the Vehicle as well as the photograph,, The computer can read the number plate and check what catagory the vehicle is in...

[Enterprisingwestern]

have a system of carriageway lighting furnished by lamps lit by electricity;

 

 

 

 

So you can go as fast as you want if the carriageway is gas lit?

 

Mike.

[duncan]

But Digital cameras report the speed of the Vehicle as well as the photograph,, The computer can read the number plate and check what catagory the vehicle is in...

 

but not motorcycles  

[TheQ]

but not motorcycles  

Agreed but the local police were fed up, seeing a motorbike  going through the cameras  at silly speeds every day, so they worked out what time and what days of the week  it was and then set a manual trap up, ....Biker nicked...

Edited February 16, 2018 by TheQ

[chriswright03]

but not motorcycles  

That depends which way the camera is facing.  Many are rear facing.

[Reorte]

By no means every road has street lighting.  Motorways often do have street slights, but AIUI they are a special case where the limit is 70 simply by virtue of the road being a motorway, unless a more restrictive limit is signposted (ie they work "the other way round") so they don't need NSL signs for lit sections.

For comparison, non-motorway dual carriageways with street lighting carry NSL repeaters (unless there's a lower limit), whereas motorways as you say are different and don't require them.

[Reorte]

Note as well that there is a rather sneaky get-out for the rapidly-proliferating 20mph limits.  If the sign at the entry to the 20mph limit says that you are entering a "zone" then repeater signs are not required at all.  One thing I'm grateful about with the Edinburgh 20mph limits is that they haven't taken that option: the 20 limits are signed normally, and also have reminder markings on the road surface (although I'm not sure what legal force those have, if any).  So at least you have little excuse for not knowing that you are in a 20 limit (not that the police seem to be making any great efforts to enforce them anyway, at least not since the first flurry of activity when the limits started to come in to force).

I believe there are technical differences and requirements for 20 mph zones and limits. The zones have to be self-enforcing, which will probably manifest itself in humps and chicanes, the limits (which will require repeaters if long enough) don't have to be.

[Coryton]

So you can go as fast as you want if the carriageway is gas lit?

 

Mike.

 

Yes that seems a very odd restriction to add. I wonder what the logic was there?

[Nick C]

Agreed but the local police were fed up, seeing a motorbike  going through the cameras  at silly speeds every day, so they worked out what time and what days of the week  it was and then set a manual trap up, ....Biker nicked...

 

Apparently a few years ago, there was a biker on the Isle of Wight who used to do that to the speed camera on the dual carriageway (for those who don't know, the Island has about one mile of Dual Carriageway, and at the time just the one speed camera...)

 

One day said biker pulled a wheelie through said camera, while making rude gestures at the camera, knowing that it couldn't see his numberplate. Unfortunately for him, the unmarked police car behind him could...

 

[edit] It might have been this one: http://www.iwcp.co.uk/news/tonup-biker-wheelied-past-speed-cameras-22337.aspx - doesn't quite match the story I heard, but then stories have a habit of wandering...

Edited February 16, 2018 by Nick C

[chriswright03]

Yes that seems a very odd restriction to add. I wonder what the logic was there?

Just to throw another spanner in the works.  It is a system of lighting.  They don't have to be lit.  It applies in daylight as well.

[Reorte]

Just to throw another spanner in the works.  It is a system of lighting.  They don't have to be lit.  It applies in daylight as well.

And at night when they're not lit, so "streelights not in use" signs don't change anything as long as they're still there.

[Quarryscapes]

It's quite shocking just how many people don't know what a dual carriageway is - a lot of people seem to think it's a road with two lanes in each direction... Particularly there seem to be a lot of people who don't realise that a road with one lane on each carriageway, and a central reservation, is still a dual carriageway...

 

Until this thread I had no idea that was the case. I have never seen it mentioned anywhere else. 

Edited February 17, 2018 by Quarryscapes