Driving standards

[Reorte]

15 minutes ago, Titan said:

 

On a lot of things yes, but I find that in light rain the intensity can vary from moment to moment, and as soon as I manage to get the appropriate delay on the wipers set for the prevailing conditions, the prevailing conditions change so I am almost constantly having to adjust the wipers either to stop them wiping an almost dry screen, or when the intensity increases so my view is not obscured between wipes. And that is on top of the manual intervention required when overtaking a lorry.  So having to make these constant alterations on top of concentrating on driving in less than ideal conditions is most definitely a hassle I would be glad to see the back of.

 

Trouble is the current cars that I have driven with this feature do not seem to be sufficiently good at it to avoid manual intervention anyway.

Overtaking a lorry in heavy spray is the only time the ones on my car are any use, it's pretty quick at kicking in to flat out when that happens.

 

Back to auto-dip presumably that relies on a car already facing you, when really you should dip your headlights before that (something lots of people are bad at doing). It's rare that you can't see the lights from a car coming towards you around a corner or over a hill before it's facing you, so you should dip your lights then so they don't get any full beam right in the face.

[boxbrownie]

11 minutes ago, Titan said:

 

The situation is that you are approaching a mini or small roundabout, and there is a car approaching from the right. you can clearly see that he is not turning left as the left hand indicator is not flashing, but you cannot see his right hand mirror or the repeater because his car is in the way. The only indicator on that side that you might be able to see is the front right, but because of the design of the car, which may be a combination of the curvature of the car and indicator position, the right hand front indicator is not visible either.  Not a problem on older squarer cars where you can see both front indicators at almost any angle, but in this case you cannot see his signal at all.

That should be an impossible situation as the legislation dictates a certain angle of view, and for front indicator it is very wide…..I can’t quote chapter and verse anymore as been retired 9 years but I used to have to record the tests when the TUV and DoT over saw the procedure for sign off.

 

Although impossible is to certain a word, better make it most unlikely 

Edited January 17, 2022 by boxbrownie

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, JDW said:

I've not got auto dipping lights but have driven a couple of cars with it and been pleasantly surprised how well it has worked, how quickly it has dipped them when another car comes the other way around a corner for example. 

 

I find auto wipers can be a blessing or a nuisance, depending on the situation. Sometimes they do exactly what I want/would do myself, other times they are either too keen or not keen enough. 

On some cars. mine included, the sensitivity is adjustable.
 

John

[Titan]

1 minute ago, boxbrownie said:

That should be an impossible situation as the legislation dictates a certain angle of view, and for front indicator it is very wide…..I can’t quote chapter and verse anymore as been retired 9 years but I used to have to record the tests when the TUV and DoT over saw the procedure for sign off.

 

Should be, but the number of cars that I and others have been unable to see indicators when I would expect them to be clearly visible suggests otherwise, and it is only recent models that this seems to be a problem on, so nothing to do with eyesight!

[Izzy]

I was always taught you should drive on dipped headlights and save full beam for emergency situations. If you can’t see far enough on dipped then slow down until you can. But I suppose this is old school driving, like looking several cars or more ahead ( and behind) to see what’s happening and not getting caught out, hanging back etc. To protect not just your car and yourself but others as well. Now it’s mostly, I exist, I own the road, get out of my way. So sad.

 

What all the auto-sensors on my Nissan Qashqai N-tec tell me is that they are totally unreliable in the dry, and if it rains just forget it.  Much worse than using manual control in more effort and loss of concentration trying to correct what’s wrong. I just have them all turned off now.  As for the Bosch produced SatNav…. a total waste of space.. can sometimes re-boot every few minutes. Apparently a common issue across the makes, Merc/BMW/Nissan etc. and yet more distraction. Good job I’ve driven a while so have a slight idea where I’m going……

 

The mere thought of driverless cars scares me witless if this is the average standard of sensor control. 
 

Bob

 

[Michael Hodgson]

13 hours ago, leopardml2341 said:

Assuming that drivers indicate at/on roundabouts.......

 

Or indicate left when leaving.

Indicators only give an indication.  How often have you seen somebody forget to cancel (and his auto cancel hasn't worked) still signalling left or right for quite some distance?  How safe is it to rely on indications given by other drivers? 

Can self driving cars judge from the road position/speed/angle of his wheels indicates when a bloke signalling is likely to do something else ?

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

AIUI, there is already available technology (infra-red maybe, in certain Mercedes cars?) for drivers to "see" beyond the range of their headlights via a heads-up display, possibly negating the need for "main beams". I'd think its capability may (or soon will) extend to cutting through fog, too.

 

Hmm. 

 

If Mercs can "see" through fog, they won't need to slow down because of the weather .... 

So can we look forward to being overtaken by Mercs hurtling past us when every other b*gger has slowed down?

... I mean, even more then we get at present....

... and will it be a good idea to rely on their system and start tailgating them ?

[Dunsignalling]

7 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

Hmm. 

 

If Mercs can "see" through fog, they won't need to slow down because of the weather .... 

So can we look forward to being overtaken by Mercs hurtling past us when every other b*gger has slowed down?

... I mean, even more then we get at present....

... and will it be a good idea to rely on their system and start tailgating them ?

The capability already seems to be built-in to Audi windscreens....

[Nick C]

19 minutes ago, Izzy said:

I was always taught you should drive on dipped headlights and save full beam for emergency situations. If you can’t see far enough on dipped then slow down until you can. 

That's incredibly inconsiderate to anyone behind you - Not only are you driving much slower than would be safe if you had full beam on, but it's also much harder for them to pass you as they won't be able to see when it's clear to do so.

[boxbrownie]

37 minutes ago, Titan said:

 

Should be, but the number of cars that I and others have been unable to see indicators when I would expect them to be clearly visible suggests otherwise, and it is only recent models that this seems to be a problem on, so nothing to do with eyesight!

Awww, you preempted my eyesight quip 

[boxbrownie]

37 minutes ago, Izzy said:

I was always taught you should drive on dipped headlights and save full beam for emergency situations. If you can’t see far enough on dipped then slow down until you can. 

 

That I find incredible, it’s like saying only use the wipers when you cannot see through the windscreen not while it is light drizzle.

[Sidecar Racer]

1 hour ago, Izzy said:

I was always taught you should drive on dipped headlights and save full beam for emergency situations.

 

 

 

 How are you going to see that it's an emergency though ?

[D860 VICTORIOUS]

Some very interesting and valid points raised here.I tend to agree with the view of Reorte,that selecting your wiper speed manually and using headlights etc. to reflect the conditions also manually is not difficult or time-consuming,if we're familiar with our cars then we know how to do this without a break in concentration.

I think that part of the problem lies in built-in interior distractions in today's cars,and as said in a previous post,the amount of drivers who seemingly don't have a minute to live as they hurry on with their journey.

And,what is it about mini-roundabouts that causes such uncertainty??!! There's one near me(very close to a Waitrose store-just saying!) that makes probably competent drivers go to pieces....

[Pete the Elaner]

39 minutes ago, Sidecar Racer said:

 

 How are you going to see that it's an emergency though ?

 

& what defines an emergency situation? Dipped beams are there to prevent dazzling others. An ambulance approaching from the other direction could be considered an emergency situation but I am sure the driver wouldn't appreciate me putting full beam on

 

When remembering what we have been taught, it is worth being mindful that many of us were told simple things then because there was so much to remember.

With experience, what was difficult becomes easy so you can learn more advanced things & think more flexibly.

[woodenhead]

Well I am thankful to this thread, I was using my front fogs the other week on some country lanes as I had in my head they were driving lights.  Reading this thread made me think again and I realised they were fogs and I shouldn't have been using them to light up the road more though no-one flashed me when I passed them which they undoubtedly would have done had I been on full beam.

 

Then yesterday I found myself in a situation because of the new Highway regulations regarding pedestrians and cars.  I was turning left at a from a main road onto a side road following another vehicle who had turned right into the same side road.  There was a pedestrian with a child on a scooter waiting to cross, she waited for the first vehicle and then stepped out in front of me and I had to stop.  I gave a little pip on the horn to remind her that I was there (really was a soft pip not a full sound), she gave me a dirty look and carried on walking.   The wife then reminded me of the new regs and she had priority, my response was and what about that small child, its all very well her taking the chance that I would stop, but what message does that send to a toddler learning road safety - just step out son and expect the big car to just stop!

[Reorte]

5 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Then yesterday I found myself in a situation because of the new Highway regulations regarding pedestrians and cars.  I was turning left at a from a main road onto a side road following another vehicle who had turned right into the same side road.  There was a pedestrian with a child on a scooter waiting to cross, she waited for the first vehicle and then stepped out in front of me and I had to stop.  I gave a little pip on the horn to remind her that I was there (really was a soft pip not a full sound), she gave me a dirty look and carried on walking.   The wife then reminded me of the new regs and she had priority, my response was and what about that small child, its all very well her taking the chance that I would stop, but what message does that send to a toddler learning road safety - just step out son and expect the big car to just stop!

Don't think there have been any regulation changes, just advice in the Highway Code. The Highway Code is essentially a guide to good practice (and failing to follow it could I suppose result in charges like careless or dangerous driving) but it isn't the law. Obviously it mentions what the law is quite often (any time it says you must or must not do something, as opposed to should / should not).

 

AIUI it's always been the case that crossing pedestrians have priority - that's why there are give way markings on both sides of the road at a T-junction, not just the side vehicles emerge from. Turning in to a side road what else is there to give way to other than crossing pedestrians? But I agree with the point about teaching children - never get in to the habit of assuming anything will stop, even where it unarguably should. When I'm a pedestrian I'd rather wait, both from the point of view of not trusting drivers enough and from the fact it's no real inconvenience for me to do so.

[leopardml2341]

2 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Indicators only give an indication.  How often have you seen somebody forget to cancel (and his auto cancel hasn't worked) still signalling left or right for quite some distance?  How safe is it to rely on indications given by other drivers? 

Indeed, that's exactly the point I was making - what's yours?

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, Reorte said:

Don't think there have been any regulation changes, just advice in the Highway Code. The Highway Code is essentially a guide to good practice (and failing to follow it could I suppose result in charges like careless or dangerous driving) but it isn't the law. Obviously it mentions what the law is quite often (any time it says you must or must not do something, as opposed to should / should not).

 

As I understand it, the proposed changes to the Highway Code are currently before Parliament, per Section 38 of the Road Traffic Act 1988. The Highway Code is not advice so much as instructions and in many places a statement of the law*. As Section 38 (7) of the Act says: "A failure on the part of a person to observe a provision of the Highway Code shall not of itself render that person liable to criminal proceedings of any kind but any such failure may in any proceedings (whether civil or criminal, and including proceedings for an offence under the Traffic Acts, the Public Passenger Vehicles Act 1981 or sections 18 to 23 of the Transport Act 1985) be relied upon by any party to the proceedings as tending to establish or negative any liability which is in question in those proceedings."

 

*Clearly indicated by the use of the words "must" and "must not" - very definitely an instruction not advice.

Edited January 17, 2022 by Compound2632

[leopardml2341]

2 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Then yesterday I found myself in a situation because of the new Highway regulations regarding pedestrians and cars.  I was turning left at a from a main road onto a side road following another vehicle who had turned right into the same side road.  There was a pedestrian with a child on a scooter waiting to cross, she waited for the first vehicle and then stepped out in front of me and I had to stop.  I gave a little pip on the horn to remind her that I was there (really was a soft pip not a full sound), she gave me a dirty look and carried on walking.   The wife then reminded me of the new regs and she had priority, my response was and what about that small child, its all very well her taking the chance that I would stop, but what message does that send to a toddler learning road safety - just step out son and expect the big car to just stop!

I had a similar incident at a mini roundabout, except I was the pedestrian and I did get a full on blast. The driver, approaching from behind and to my left, had also cut the roundabout, effectively going wrong side, I stood, stared and politely suggested the driver refresh their knowledge of the highway code on both counts. I was greeted with the response "F*** Off" to which I said "well there you go'; all this from a 'lady' driver......

 

Makes you think, doesn't it?

Edited January 17, 2022 by leopardml2341

[Michael Hodgson]

26 minutes ago, leopardml2341 said:

 

what's yours?

That's very good of you - mine's a pint !  

[leopardml2341]

8 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

That's very good of you - mine's a pint !  

You can have half, for only quoting (less than) half of my post

 

but NOT if you're driving.

Edited January 17, 2022 by leopardml2341

[kevinlms]

4 hours ago, Izzy said:

I was always taught you should drive on dipped headlights and save full beam for emergency situations. If you can’t see far enough on dipped then slow down until you can. But I suppose this is old school driving, like looking several cars or more ahead ( and behind) to see what’s happening and not getting caught out, hanging back etc. To protect not just your car and yourself but others as well. Now it’s mostly, I exist, I own the road, get out of my way. So sad.

 

You wouldn't get far in Australia, just driving around on dipped headlights. Some people apparently have no idea that a high beam switch exists in their vehicle - perhaps they are expecting to have it by their left foot?

The distances are just too great in Australia and the roads too dark out of the cities, for just dipped lights.

 

Sometimes you see people driving at say 60-65 kmh in dark sections on dipped headlights (or 1 headlight out), because they can't see to drive faster. When they get to built up areas, they speed up to 75kmh in a 60kmh zone, because there are street lights, so they travel faster!

It is the sort of thing that is dangerous, because people attempt foolish things to pass them.

[craneman]

19 hours ago, JDW said:

Definitely agree with the comments on not turning fog lights off, or turning them on for a bif of mist. I can't figure out how the logic works....

I think that you are making a mistake in assuming that there is any logic. Most of the irritations which one experiences on the roads today suggest that many drivers do not apply any thought to the task they are undertaking and rely on programmed behaviours, luck, and technology to survive, and that is at the root of my earlier comment.

 

The more we make it possible for people to drive with out thinking, and the more that we as society accept that driving without thought is acceptable, the more it will happen and the worse it will get.

 

On other themes which have cropped up in this thread lately:-

 

Auto wipers - one vehicle I drive regularly (fortunately only one) has auto wipers, i.e., instead of having a tradition "intermittent" setting and the ability for the driver to adjust to an extent the frequency of wipe, it has an auto setting then the usual normal and fast continuous wipes settings. It is totally useless and infuriating, and very often on auto it will wipe too infrequently or too frequently. I think this has to do with the way the sensor works (and it can certainly be fooled by bugs and flies). This is extremely distracting, and generally means that you can't use the mode at all, instead you have to turn the wipers on and off manually at an interval appropriate to the drizzle/rain, which is distracting as well as annoying. The vehicle (a Mitsubishi L200) does not have any alternative to this setting, you cannot opt for a traditional intermittent setting.

 

Side lights - there are many times when it is entirely legal, appropriate, and helpful to other road users to drive with sidelights rather than headlights. Why therefore do many manufacturers (for example SKODA and presumably the rest of the VAG) insist on turning off the instrument panel lights when the sidelights on their own are on, rendering them impossible to use when driving?

 

Auto-dipping headlights - as someone who tries to be a considerate driver, I dip my headlights whenever I feel that they are likely to inconvenience or distress other road users, including pedestrians, cyclists (and even horse riders who are of course allowed to use the roads at night, although wisely few do). I am afar from convinced that auto-dipping headlights can detect the full range of other road users that I can detect. I think that this problem will become much, much worse as "matrix" or "adaptive beam" headlights become commonplace, since these never actually dip, they (supposedly) intelligently adjust just that part of the beam that is dazzling the other road user. To my mind that means that they must be able to distinguish between  a pedestrian and a tree, and I seriously doubt they can do that.

[kevinlms]

51 minutes ago, leopardml2341 said:

You can have half, for only quoting (less than) half of my post

 

but NOT if you're driving.

There used to be a loophole in Australia, where because the law said about not being over the blood alcohol limit, you could in theory drive, as long as you weren't actually over.

Very difficult to manage your actual level and so that loophole was closed years ago.

 

The other thing that can happen on random preliminary breath tests, is that the sensitive devices, can give a false positive to a non drinking driver. The machine can pick up the fumes from the passenger(s)!

A proper test though corrects it, but not before the driver (who may have had a single drink) might have to change his clothing!

[Reorte]

15 minutes ago, craneman said:

Auto-dipping headlights - as someone who tries to be a considerate driver, I dip my headlights whenever I feel that they are likely to inconvenience or distress other road users, including pedestrians, cyclists (and even horse riders who are of course allowed to use the roads at night, although wisely few do). I am afar from convinced that auto-dipping headlights can detect the full range of other road users that I can detect. I think that this problem will become much, much worse as "matrix" or "adaptive beam" headlights become commonplace, since these never actually dip, they (supposedly) intelligently adjust just that part of the beam that is dazzling the other road user. To my mind that means that they must be able to distinguish between  a pedestrian and a tree, and I seriously doubt they can do that.

Not even always other road users - I've dipped mine before now on a road next to a railway when there was a train coming the other way. Doubt a train driver likes full beam lights in their face any more than a car driver.

Edited January 17, 2022 by Reorte