RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted September 23, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 23, 2015 Been out on site most of the day at a secret but windy location 'somewhere in the West of England' looking at the ground works for a new rail freight flow starting next year, so I'm glad to see that the debate is still going strong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 Open reply to barry o, organiser of nec warley dear barry, thank you for your private message in response to my public comment about Warley. I do not like your show and will not be returning to it. (this is not a unique opinion). I accept that many other people do like it. You are running the show primarily as a commercial profit making exercise; Derek, Barry supports the organising club, Warley MRC, by organising one part of the show, the demo area. I've examined the PM exchange, Barry challenged the viewpoint that your put forward but by the end of the exchange you were quite rude and then mistakenly target the wrong man publicly. I will be removing access to this topic as it's a diversion from the main subject matter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flymo748 Posted September 23, 2015 Author Share Posted September 23, 2015 A topic that is under continual review by the Society and which has been discussed at length on the Society forum. The marketing manager/deputy chairman (Paul Willis, Flymo748) initiated this thread and so no doubt will be pleased to collect any ideas expressed here - quite possibly the views of any non-Scalefour people might throw up some fresh viewpoints which get overlooked from inside the tent as it were. It's been an interesting journey to watch, and now that we have drifted away from the subject of Scaleforum itself and onto sausages and other shows, perhaps it's time to recap on some of the issues raised. I'm going to pick out a few points to respond to. I'm going to start at page 11 (!) and work backwards. If you posed a question, theoretical or otherwise, and you feel that I have overlooked it then my apologies. I will try and answer as well as I can, so I will choose the "typical" question rather than answer each one individually, particularly when the answers would be the same. If anyone wishes to raise something directly, the usual email should work: deputychairman@scalefour.org Cheers Paul Willis Scalefour Society Deputy Chairman Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flymo748 Posted September 23, 2015 Author Share Posted September 23, 2015 One of the advantages of no barriers at Expos is getting as close as the eyesight will allow. BlackgillS4um_008-EditSm.jpg Also sometimes it can be disadvantage hence the clear acrylic guards. This was Blackgill at Scaleforum in 2013. p One of the other advantages of the "expo" type of show without barriers is that you can talk with the operators. Perhaps ask them to stop that particular train. Or even run something special for you. Except for the layouts that do follow a strict timetable and where it would all go horribly, horribly wrong, those exhibiting are usually very happy to stop, chat, explain, or even hand the controller over to you. That is one of the benefits that comes from a "no barriers" type of show. Over the Scaleforum weekend more than a couple of people spoke to me about how they had been able to capture just the right photograph with the layout operators' co-operation. That's a benefit that you don't tend to find at a more general show, for the general public, where there is more of an emphasis on keeping the trains running at all times. And rightly so, for that is the expected form of entertainment. However it is nice to have somewhere to be able to take the time to chat... Cheers Paul Willis Scalefour Society Deputy Chairman Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flymo748 Posted September 23, 2015 Author Share Posted September 23, 2015 A few layout shots - as I said these were mostly taken before opening and so trains are a bit thin on the ground ... I think that point made, several times, earlier in this thread was that "finescale" is a state of mind and an approach to modelling. It is categorically not a track gauge... My view is that those pictures - and particularly the ones *without* trains - illustrate that rather nicely! Cheers Paul Willis Scalefour Society Deputy Chairman Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flymo748 Posted September 23, 2015 Author Share Posted September 23, 2015 I joined the EMGS in (I think) 2000; at that time the S4Soc. seemed, to me at least, to be a little too elitist for my liking. However, I'm also now a member of the S4Soc. (and have been for maybe 5 years or more) - there certainly (in my eyes, at least) seems to have been a mellowing of tone in the Society and all seems much more friendly and approachable. It's worth noting that the EMGS also caters for P4, selling suitable Gauges, rail etc. But I also find that the S4Soc. Newsletter has (in my eyes) more interesting articles than it's EMGS counterpart; some of the items stocked by the S4Soc. Stores seem to be a little more "cutting edge" also. Will the two ever join? Maybe, if finances dictate it. But perhaps not until any existing opposition (if indeed there is any now) from the "old guard" has waned. And which of the two Gauges have I adopted? Neither... polybear I've been on the Scalefour Committee (initially as Marketing Manager, lately as Deputy Chairman as well) for around five or six years. Prior to that I was just an ordinary member and had been since I was around seventeen. Before going through university, job, girls, cars, motorbikes, etc as a very passive modeller and member until I had the time and space to resume modelling again. Certainly in the time that I've been on the Committee I've seen a significant change in attitude about the Society, and what we want to give our members. It may have been things like the Society publishing new books (St. Merryn, Alex Jackson Couplings) ourselves. It might be launching new products and providing a shopfront both for new products from members, and also small traders like London Road Models or Dave Bradwell. It might be moving away from email lists to a fully featured forum that now attracts a good level of traffic from our members every single day. Or it might be the continuing improvement of Scalefour News, through successive editors so that now it is a full colour magazine that we feel stands equal with such journals as MRJ. The main thing is that the Society is looking forward, embracing the future and the technologies that it can offer, and seeing what we can bring to our members. And as a result, Scalefour Society membership has grown year on year for the last seven years... Enough of the sermon. The main point is that you are absolutely right. The Scalefour Society is not what it was ten or twenty years ago, or what most people still seem to think that it still is today! Cheers Paul Willis Scalefour Society Deputy Chairman Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flymo748 Posted September 23, 2015 Author Share Posted September 23, 2015 With one event covering all scales? Surely that would be a general model railway exhibition, although maybe on a comparable level to the famous MRJ one, and modellers in each scale/gauge would lose the opportunity to gather where the expertise they need can be found in one place. I quite fancy a combined O-MF/O-16.5/EM/P4 Broad Gauge event, but would anyone else think it would be worth attending? Very true. Good points, well made. When the Scalefour Society decided to invite a guest layout or society to Scaleforum each year, it was a conscious decision to choose the best of our finescale "fellow travellers". The idea was to have something that was different, yet shared the same ethos, and could inspire us in the same was as the best of P4 layouts. However it was important that by doing so it did not turn Scaleforum into that general show that meant that we lost the very members that we were putting the show on for. I have to say that I have very much appreciated the various guest gauges and scales that have attended, from 2FS to S7. And this year, Norwegian (I think) narrow gauge. As to what it will be next year, I simply don't know. But I'm certain that it will be interesting. Cheers Paul Willis Scalefour Society Deputy Chairman Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flymo748 Posted September 23, 2015 Author Share Posted September 23, 2015 That was the first Scaleforum I'd attended since a visit in the City University(?) days and I thought it was very good indeed. The atmosphere was exceptionally convivial and friendly and I really got a sense that people were enjoying themselves and were very relaxed in the company of like minded individuals. The modelling was very good too. Whilst having no idea of the finances, I have been to all sorts of shows and I would judge last weekend's Scaleforum to be up there with the best, all things considered. Although I was ostensibly there to represent Wild Swan books, I am myself a Gauge One modeller and can only feel envy at the level of support exhibited for scale 4mm modelling at the show and also more generally by the Scalefour society and its numerous supporting traders and suppliers. I am also afflicted by the "scale track and wheels thing" in Gauge One and can honestly say that the support available to this approach from the G1 society and G1 traders etc is nowhere near what the S4 society has achieved. I'd say that I'm in some sort of arid wasteland, say the Gobi Desert, while you guys are in the Garden of Eden(!) The relationships and issues you face in any modelling scale are pretty much the same and it does seem a bit daft that in each scale people are very literally "re-inventing wheels". I suspect this approach would help defuse factionalism, and also enrich the hobby more generally. Simon [some bits snipped above] Thanks for the summary of the show. You hit the nail on the head with "in the company of like minded individuals". That is really what it is all about. And there is a general recognition that good finescale modelling comes in many shapes and sizes. I'm not naming names but I know personally that several of the Scalefour Society members that were at Scaleforum this weekend have significant interests in 2mm Finescale and in ScaleSeven. I wrote in my editorial column in MRJ 225 that I felt that the 2FS Association was, in terms of product development and also in enthusiasm, where the Scalefour Society was twenty years ago. And that is a good thing, because I see where we have progressed to in products and support, and I feel confident that 2FS will also take the same road. I have a pretty good idea that will happen from what I see them doing, because I'm a 2FS Association member myself! Cheers Paul Willis Scalefour Society Deputy Chairman Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flymo748 Posted September 23, 2015 Author Share Posted September 23, 2015 I put forward my comments re the societies joining as a genuine view and one I have long held. But I clearly see there are entrenched perspectives and " hidden politics " so I've no desire to persist with my merger comments ( hence my Syrian quip ) Nope. Not from within the Committee of the Scalefour Society. If we, and of course our membership, thought that it was worth doing then I'm sure that something would happen. At the current time (and I had this conversation on the way to the pub with a prominent EMGS member last Saturday night) we simply don't see a reason for it to. However as a Society Committee we sometimes sit down and look twenty years into the future, and see what might happen there. Who knows? There are some practical problems as well - for example the EMGS is a limited company. I'm sure that if there was a genuine reason for it to happen on both sides though, the practicalities could be overcome. "Hidden politics"? Give it a rest! This is toy trains... Cheers Paul Willis Scalefour Society Deputy Chairman Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flymo748 Posted September 23, 2015 Author Share Posted September 23, 2015 As someone involved many years ago in the machinations of merging the Scalefour Society and the EMGS, there are a couple of significant momentts to recall: Firstly, when the infamous schism took place, the Scalefour Society was formed because those behind the Protofour Society got upset by those wishing to bypass Studiolith as the sole supplier of P4 compliant products AND the then power behind the EMGS ruled against accomodating the dissaffected P4 members joining and (in his estimation) taking over the EMGS. Secondly, when the discussions between the committees of the two societies about merging took place some years later, a certain (but not the same one) EMGS member who had a pivotal function in that Society once again vetoed the merger so it never got close to happening. Stan Thank you for sharing those little bits of ancient history. As someone that is relatively new to the running of the Scalefour Society, even though I've been a member continuously for over thirty (eeek!) years, I was completely unaware of that background. How different things might have turned out in the 4mm world... Cheers Paul Willis Scalefour Society Deputy Chairman Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted September 23, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 23, 2015 Given the recent passing of Bob Barlow, it's worth recording this module of his which was sat at the show. I love where he was heading with this and IMO it's such a pity he didn't get the opportunity to complete it - it would have been awesome. Track looks a little on the narrow side for P4 though... ;-p Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flymo748 Posted September 24, 2015 Author Share Posted September 24, 2015 This thread is really cooking on gas, isn't it? The show's over, unfortunately there aren't that many photos of the actual show up there (but thanks to those who did), but the debate is still going on and on. What larks! Just to point out for those that may not be aware, the Scalefour Society prepares a Retrospective of all of its shows for those that could not be there and as a permanent record of what appeared. The Scaleforum 2015 one will appear in a couple of weeks when the hundreds of photos that were taken have been sorted and filtered for the very best. You'll find it at http://www.scalefour.org/shows/shows.html along with ones of many other past shows. Have a look and find some Inspiring Modelling! Cheers Paul Willis Scalefour Society Deputy Chairman Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flymo748 Posted September 24, 2015 Author Share Posted September 24, 2015 I know where you are coming from with that suggestion but as it's a society show that is already subsidised by it's members I don't think that would be the answer. I'm one of those that doesn't mind that subsidy as I think the show is a benefit of membership. P The idea of increasing the entrance fee is one that is discussed each and every year at the Scalefour Society Committee as part of the planning for the show. Yes, compared to spending three hours in the cinema, two hours at a football match, or even a round of drinks in the pub, it is ludicrously cheap for a full day's or weekend's entertainment. However railway modellers are a funny lot. They'll drive half way across the country and complain about not being able to park within fifty yards of the door. They'll moan at an extra 50p on the entrance fee, then once in the show they buy a £150 loco kit that then sits in a drawer for ten years, gathering dust. Lots of little things like that :-) We have had to increase the entrance fee over the years when faced with rising costs, particularly for accommodation and travel. However we do not wish to exploit the loyalty of our members and regular non-member visitors by putting the cost of coming up to what we think "the market will bear". Perhaps that may have to change in the future. Perhaps the model of the show will have to change. After all, Missenden Modelling Courses are regularly selling out and that is more than a couple of hundred quid for a weekend (and still incredibly good value for what you get, by the way) including accommodation and tuition, so there is clearly a lot of money in the hobby for those things that people care about and want to attend. It's a dilemma to think on. The cheapest ticket for a middling football club (Aston Villa, the one that I support) at a mid-table game starts at £27. Should we start charging at that level, and tell people that they are receiving a lot more than 90 minutes of entertainment? I don't know... Cheers Paul Willis Scalefour Society Deputy Chairman Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flymo748 Posted September 24, 2015 Author Share Posted September 24, 2015 which to anyone with half a brain , is essentially the same thing , the promotion of 4mm railway modelling in the correct sense , whats even more strange is that EM is now supporting a kind of p4 EM the merits of an 00 society can be debated, but 00 is a somewhat lost cause and what happens is really dictated by the major rtr manufacturers. But to me , there is very little difference between EM and P4 is terms of basic aspiration and in reality had the EM gauge society reacted quick enough it should have encompasses the p4 movement , which it now is trying to do EMGS intro line We are a UK based international society created to promote and cater for railway modellers working to a scale of 4mm/ft with a track gauge of 18.2mm. We also cater for modellers working to the more demanding Protofour (P4) standards with a track gauge of 18.83mm. The society encourages the use of fine scale standards and provides support and resources to promote this. Scalefours intro The Scalefour Society caters for the needs of railway modellers working to the scale of 4mm/ft (1:76.2), the most popular of the British model railway scales. It promotes and encourages the use of effective modelling techniques and fine scale standards among all 4mm railway modellers with a particular emphasis on the use of scale wheels and track. This web site contains a great deal of information for all modellers and is a showcase for the Society. It also contains our Forum, where you can read about many aspects of finescale modelling. I mean you couldn't put a fag paper of difference between those intros I dont offer this argument without reason, firstly it allows a single society , stronger then each of its constituents to reach out to 00 modellers, ( its natural hunting ground ) , its allows efficiency of the various shops , and potentially allows a bigger and better attended set of specialist exhibitions Actually, you could. If you look at them, you will find that the Scalefour Society one doesn't mention track gauge Yes, there is an emphasis on the use of scale wheels and track, but consider which one could be seen as more approachable to (say) Finescale OO, or narrow gauge (no pun intended) modellers... Just something to think on... Cheers Paul Willis Scalefour Society Deputy Chairman Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackRat Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 A comprehensive set of answers there from Paul, which should keep everyone happy............. But then again, we are railway modellers.......... Thanks for taking the time Paul, it is appreciated. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kazmierczak Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 From Paul's answers above, which seem to be very clear, open and honest, the Society appears to be in good hands. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 A comprehensive set of answers there from Paul, which should keep everyone happy............. But then again, we are railway modellers.......... He hasn't answered the age old question "But is it as good as OO?" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kazmierczak Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 He hasn't answered the age old question "But is it as good as OO?" Think Paul covers that in post #264. Makes me feel a lot better with my PECO code 100 and dead frogs, not having to worry about the gauge. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 Think Paul covers that in post #264. Makes me feel a lot better with my PECO code 100 and dead frogs, not having to worry about the gauge. As I see it, it must be terrible being a P4 modeller with no support from Bachmann, Hornby or Heljan. Heck, they have to build it all themselves. If Hornby could just dip their toe in with a Railroad 0-4-0 tank in P4 it could be the start of something great for them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 ....it must be terrible being a P4 modeller with no support from Bachmann, Hornby or Heljan. .... Is it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 Of course it isn't, I have the greatest respect for people who can build something as exquisite as a steam engine which in some cases only exist now in drawings. It's not about track width or sleeper spacing, it's about setting out to achieve the best you can and there are some amazing models out there in all scales. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 If Hornby could just dip their toe in with a Railroad 0-4-0 tank in P4 it could be the start of something great for them. There's probably folk still at Hornby that remembers the success of Dapols J94 that came supplied with a comprehensive EM gauge conversion. The only thing that was different with all the supplied spare parts, was the length of the axles. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 ........ and there are some amazing models out there in all scales. ... and gauges.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 He hasn't answered the age old question "But is it as good as OO?" Don't worry, there are a handful of 16.2 mm gauge disciples, who intend to fix that comparison. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackRat Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 There's probably folk still at Hornby that remembers the success of Dapols J94 that came supplied with a comprehensive EM gauge conversion. The only thing that was different with all the supplied spare parts, was the length of the axles. Still got mine, tho it's been converted back again now! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.