Horsetan Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 I think there may be factions on both sides against that idea.... Splitters!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jub45565 Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 I'm happy in the people's front of Judea... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 So the only reason I can thing of for not going is not knowing enough (anything?) about what to expect and whether or not it would suit me. Catch 22? You didn't go because you didn't know if you would like it and you didn't know you would like it because you didn't go. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Catch 22? ... You didn't go because you didn't know if you would like it and you didn't know you would like it because you didn't go. (Very much tongue in cheek) Bill, the original Catch 22 was 'If you know your mad, then you can't be', basically. Thus I think the analogy would be 'You know you won't like the Show, because you've never been' Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted September 22, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 22, 2015 You didn't go because you didn't know if you would like it and you didn't know you would like it because you didn't go. You could watch the 2004 video: https://player.vimeo.com/video/7347818 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 He went under the ID "Metropolitan" and developed a reputation for building locos in record time. That was another aim of his: to take loco kits back to 1970s standards, OO only. No provision for EM or P4. He didn't like today's etched kits, particularly not Finney. The funny thing was, that in his own particular way, he built his loos within such tight self imposed guide lines that he was actually working to tighter standards than either of the two supposedly more finescale groups. I remember an A4 with far less detail than the Hornby model. When I brought up a couple of points he was totally unaware of what the real thing looked like. He did sell off a rather nice collection of Metropolitan locomotives at one time. Family affairs prevented me from attending last weekend, a pity as it seemed to be well up to the usual standard. Talk of mergers or changes reminds me of the two cyclists on a desert island who formed four clubs. One for each that the other would have nothing to do with. One for both and one that neither would want to associate with but would provide them with an target to rant about. Bernard Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Bigcheeseplant Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 I am not too sure if any talk of any merger of socities is useful for this thread. The exhibition is Scalefourum run by the Scalefour Society If you look at it as a meeting point for Scalefour members is really good, if you see it as a model railway exhibitopn its really good, compared to other model railway exhibitions its really good. Thinking of merging societies it would be like saying lets merge model railway clubs so they can run better shows, I don't think it will happen! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Catch 22? You didn't go because you didn't know if you would like it and you didn't know you would like it because you didn't go. Would he want to be a member of any club that would have him as a member? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted September 22, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 22, 2015 IMHO. Where the Scalefour society tends to fall down is in it's (seemingly) fervant approach to only extolling the virtues of the track gauge. At S4um this weekend I saw fantastic examples of signals, buildings, rolling stock and other peripherals of a model railway that really had nothing to do with 18.83mm track. There are certain people in the society trying to shift this emphasis, but it seems to be like trying to turn an oil tanker in Milford Haven harbour. Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgman Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 (instead of the po-faced visitors we are all familiar with at general shows) OY! Some of us resemble that remark ! Steady on ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 IMHO. Where the Scalefour society tends to fall down is in it's (seemingly) fervant approach to only extolling the virtues of the track gauge. Surely that IS their purpose. They don't have a monopoly on other aspects of layout building, although people who put the effort into getting the track gauge, and everything associated with it, to those standards generally aim to build the rest of their layout to equally high standards. But lots of people who are happy with steamroller wheels on 4' 1½" gauge (or even less in the case of OO-SF etc), with oversized rail and undersized sleepers, also build the rest of their layouts to equally high standards, although the logic of why they produce something so unbalanced defeats me! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted September 22, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 22, 2015 Surely that IS their purpose. They don't have a monopoly on other aspects of layout building, although people who put the effort into getting the track gauge, and everything associated with it, to those standards generally aim to build the rest of their layout to equally high standards. But lots of people who are happy with steamroller wheels on 4' 1½" gauge (or even less in the case of OO-SF etc), with oversized rail and undersized sleepers, also build the rest of their layouts to equally high standards, although the logic of why they produce something so unbalanced defeats me! As I said, IMHO. Agree totally. All I'm saying is that it tends to alienate more people than it attracts at exhibitions. By default, anyone who can build track and mechanisms to P4 standards will "tend" to be better at other aspects of the hobby. A lot of what is to be seen at S4um isn't purely S4, and this is what needs to be promoted more. Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted September 22, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 22, 2015 Where the Scalefour society tends to fall down is in it's (seemingly) fervant approach to only extolling the virtues of the track gauge. The entire hobby is fixated on the matter of the distance between the rails. Hence the endless 00/EM/P4 froth. The prototype isn't so bothered. There is a vast range of track gauges used across the world. Even in the UK -- Northern Ireland is 5ft-3in gauge: Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 A lot of what is to be seen at S4um isn't purely S4, and this is what needs to be promoted more. Mike. I agree, if events like Scaleforum are to attract non S4 people, as there is a lot there that can inspire and help all modellers. But that's where it seems to get difficult. It's an event primarily for S4 modellers, where they can meet like-minded people, gain knowledge, share ideas, and see and buy the products they need. All that needs to be retained, otherwise there's no point in running the event. How, and whether it's even possible, to make it more appealing to other modellers, without losing any of that, is the big question. Maybe it's just not possible. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
10800 Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 IMHO. Where the Scalefour society tends to fall down is in it's (seemingly) fervant approach to only extolling the virtues of the track gauge. I think that's very old news to be honest, especially the 'fervent' bit. Yes it promotes 18.83 mm gauge but nowadays more in the context of an overall finescale approach. Surely nobody still thinks that a layout with 18.83 mm track is a good layout just because of that? At S4um this weekend I saw fantastic examples of signals, buildings, rolling stock and other peripherals of a model railway that really had nothing to do with 18.83mm track. Exactly! For non-P4 modellers the track gauge on show is almost incidental. There's lots to see across the spectrum of 4 mm scale modelling, and indeed of interest to those modelling in other scales as well. P4 modellers go to Railex, Expo-EM, Warley, Manchester and a whole load of other shows and are equally entertained/inspired/relieved of cash. Take the current issue of Scalefour News for example. Feature articles on prototype coupling practice, computerised operation of signalling, making a success of switches and crossings, continuous springy beams and wagon weathering. Only two of those (crossings and CSBs) refer to track and wheel relationships, but although written with P4 in mind the same principles could be applied to other standards. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted September 22, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 22, 2015 So far as I can see all the information you are asking for has been provided in this very topic, starting with post #1 If promotion on RMweb is not enough for RMweb readers where should we put the publicity so that it would awaken your interest? Regards Ah, but that is the point - and comes back to the point made by David (of the Bigcheeseplant variety) - prior to the show I ignored this thread because of its title on the basis that it probably would not be for me. I realise now, in retrospect of course, that in many respects it would be for me (and thanks to one member for PM'ing me to encourage that view by relating his own experiences of the event this year). As I've said many aspects suit me down to the ground including location and the venue but one can always be wary of content - until one knows better (which I now do) and that traders, in particular, are not firmly fixed on catering at the show solely to a particular part of the broad church of railway modelling. Maybe, perhaps, it would be an emphasis on that which would serve to attract a broader base of patronage without taking away from the event it's obvious basis? You will note incidentally that I very specifically do not refer to it as a 'show' because it very clearly is not in that category and obviously to describe it as such would not be a sensible course to take (in my view). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted September 22, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 22, 2015 Catch 22? You didn't go because you didn't know if you would like it and you didn't know you would like it because you didn't go. See previous post but in many respects what you say is spot on. Big question is do I spend almost an hour driving each way using the better part of £5's worth of fuel in each direction (its twisty country roads) then £9 to go into a show which has nothing for me. Almost £20 before I enter the door just to find out if it will suit me. My previous post might answer that I think. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stanley Melrose Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 I'm open to correction but didn't the Scalefour Society run advertisements with the strap line - "Getting it all right!" I also recall seeing in MRJ 240 "Inspiring modelling . . . " in their half-page advertisement for the Society. Isn't the issue that if you are going to spend time and effort perfecting rolling stock, scenery and all the other accompanying features of a layout, you might want to consider ensuring that the track gauge is similarly accurate? It's not about "width", it's about consistency. Stan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted September 22, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 22, 2015 Yes it promotes 18.83 mm gauge No-one minds the 18. It's the .83mm which puts so many folks off. I think it is utterly ridiculous to claim (or appear to be claiming) that P4 modellers are building something made of plastic and wood, by hand, to one hundredth of a millimetre. That's less than half a thousandth of an inch. I know in practice they simply use the track gauges, the same as anyone else. But the .83 number keeps appearing -- you used it above. It would be just as accurate, and much more friendly, to describe the P4 track gauge as 18 and 5/6th of a millimetre. A sixth of a millimetre is something folks can visualise, and just about imagine measuring or working to. Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gr.king Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 74mpg for the trip there, 78mpg for the trip home. What's not to like? To paraphrase Captain Rum, from the Slackbladder 2 series: "Oh, you have a WOMAN'S car" Just like real men, real cars can sup far more than that. Anything over 30mpg is definitely not Macho Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 ....Just like real men, real cars can sup far more than that. Anything over 30mpg is definitely not Macho Any fool can drive macho (see "Driving Standards" thread). Besides, the money saved in diesel went towards the 47xx kit..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Worsdell forever Posted September 22, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 22, 2015 The name of the society does not mention the track gauge, 'Scalefour Society', it says to me that everything is to a constant 4mm-ft. The EM Gauge society (in which I am a member and model to) has the gauge in the name (and it coveres EM, 18.2 and 18.83). And I was going to S4 North and EM North many years before I started in EM, good modelling is good modelling whatever the scale/gauge. I've seen a few naff P4 layouts over the years too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahame Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Like EM, P4 and S4 (as well as NG options), OO is a just another version of 4mm:ft scale so why not one overall society? Like a model railway club or society? Or maybe even like a forum such as RMweb....... Oh, hang on a sec . . . :-) G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon A Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 I have been a member of the Scalefour Society for a good number of years. Being a member does not make you a better modeller. As others have said there are examples of excellent moddelling in 00 and EM. What does jar with me is when you see an excellently executed model built using PECO code 100 track and points which, appart from placing the layout at height that cannot be looked down on cannot be disguised. While modelling in 00 I started to learn to build my own points using SMP kits which gave me a greater variety of and more realistic looking point and crossing work than was available from Peco at the time. i then joined a group that included a number of P4 modellers who encouraged me further along the line of building my own track work and making the transition from narrow gauge (00) to scale track work with correct sleeper spacing and length. I accept that P4 and to a lesser extent EM requires that wheels be changed as a minimum which is an additional expense on what are usually a tight budget and time. Time is also a resource which you may not have a lot of. Track work is I believe the last neglected area in 4mm modelling. We build lovelly "accurate" models of locos and stock and then run them track that looks and is wrong, around point work that would give some industrial locos cause for concern. I have nothing against 00 modellers but please take a careful look at your track work. Is it up to the standard of the rest of your modelling? if not why not do something about it such as look at Tillig track work, or better still learn to build your own track work. It is not that difficult but does need a bit of practice and persevereance as does any knew skill. If you do not have the space or want to build a realistic looking scene, but are happy to see your trains running on a Cyril freezer style plan, that is fine. Dont go bashing those of us that are looking to build our trackwork to a similar standard of accuracy as our stock and settings. Gordon A Bristol. Grabbing hat and coat and heading back to his corner. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jub45565 Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 I quite agree Gordon - and there is no denying that a P4 layout takes longer to create, and thus with limited time a better overall scene may be created in 00 for those time constrained. See what the likes of Chris Nevard has produced, and Dewsbury Midland captures the scene well even when looking end on! When it all comes together though you get to the realms of Halifax King Cross. NB - other examples of excellent modelling in 00 and P4 are available, as well as gauges in between... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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