45 ton Ransomes Crane

[The Stationmaster]

Just got the email - gutted.

A jump from ninety quid to £212 is just taking the wee wee. I was expecting a hike, but nothing like that.

I'll be cancelling.

 

Sorry but if you believed Hattons ludicrous come on price what on earth did you expect to get for your money?  Clearly it was going to be very pricey and as G-BOAF has identified the fall in the £ is probably what pushed it over the magic £200 barrier (after the initial 15% discount).  Hattons made total idiots of themselves several years ago due to quoting an equally ridiculous price for the Brighton atlantic at the time of its original announcement when it was obvious from the price of the NRM version that it was going to be way more than they were indicating.  Basically it is a sort of sharp practice on their part done solely to get in advance orders and make the books look good - then slam on the extra when the goods arrive (albeit they sometimes haven't for relatively small differences), serves 'em right if they lose orders as a consequence of stupid price offers.

[G-BOAF]

This is why many retailers' use of TBA or Kernow's £0.01 is helpful and honest.

Defending Hattons however, when the model was announced, was the spec and complexity known? Possibly not...

[JSpencer]

Hattons put in a guesstimate and said it was so. Some TBA and some 0.01... Overall we know these are a shot in the dark.

 

Bachmann have gone off and produced a master piece, however their factory (which is in house) is in one of the more expensive areas, so while other brands can shop around between factories, Bachmann are rather stuck to their in house and it will remain as such until it is demonstrated and accepted politically that even Kader needs to outsource to cheaper areas otherwise they will cease being competitive and will become a niche player.

 

Hornby and Heljan seem to have stabilized prices in recent times - a miracle when all is considered, Bachmann's are still heading up.

[MarkSG]

To be fair to Hattons, my initial thought when I saw the model announced was that their predicted price was in the right ballpark. In terms of intricate detail, it's not dissimilar to the Plasser tamper machine that can be picked up on eBay for around the same amount. The crane is, of course, bigger, but on the other hand it isn't motorised, which ought to balance it out a bit. The Hornby Cowans Sheldon crane, while obviously a lot less detailed and a lot less accurate, is available for around £30 on eBay.

 

So, while a sub-£100 predicted price may have been a bit optimistic, it's not unreasonable. I certainly don't think they could reasonably have foreseen an RRP that's well over double their initial estimate.

[Pre Grouping fan]

Hornby and Heljan seem to have stabilized prices in recent times - a miracle when all is considered, Bachmann's are still heading up.

Have to disagree about Hornby, the peckets are more expensive for the second batch as were the adams radials the lord nelson is 195. Personally Bachmann pack far much more detail in to their models for less, I cant see the LN having an opening firebox door for the price compared to the Bachmann h1 and h2

Edited January 9, 2018 by Pre Grouping fan

[MikeParkin65]

Well I assume it's costing them a fortune to make, and fair enough if that's what they have to charge to cover their costs, but I'm not quite sure it's worth a weeks wages, as I say, I'll be interested to see how many they sell.

 

 

Thats an interesting analogy  - the worth of a model in terms of a weekly wage. If Bachmann were to release the crane in component kit form I can guarantee it would take me longer than a week (or maybe a month!) to make and there are plenty of other modelling tasks I can be usefully doing in that time. £250 is pretty good value by that measure. Whether a person can afford it is another matter  - I would love an F Type Jag but I can't afford one of those either!

 

Only questions are a) can I afford one and b) how much do I want one?

[Pre Grouping fan]

I have the same issue,while I would like a SR one, the BR black model is the example from the Bluebell! Oh what to do...

[Dunsignalling]

Hattons put in a guesstimate and said it was so. Some TBA and some 0.01... Overall we know these are a shot in the dark.

 

Bachmann have gone off and produced a master piece, however their factory (which is in house) is in one of the more expensive areas, so while other brands can shop around between factories, Bachmann are rather stuck to their in house and it will remain as such until it is demonstrated and accepted politically that even Kader needs to outsource to cheaper areas otherwise they will cease being competitive and will become a niche player.

 

Hornby and Heljan seem to have stabilized prices in recent times - a miracle when all is considered, Bachmann's are still heading up.

Hatton's estimates are almost always well short of the mark. It's a ruse to get people to pre-order from them rather than elsewhere. Wake up at the back, there.

 

I have always taken them with a pinch of salt and a mental addition of 25% which, in this case, was woefully inadequate.

 

They're still doing it - the prices they are quoting for the Bulleid coaches are probably around three quarters of what they'll turn out to be in reality and two thirds of RRP.

 

Does it bother me? Not a bit, because I don't expect the fantasy prices to be met.

 

Does it put me off dealing with them? Not a bit, because they've never failed to fulfil any of my pre-orders and delivery is what really matters.

 

John

Edited January 9, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[JSpencer]

Have to disagree about Hornby, the peckets are more expensive for the second batch as were the adams radials the lord nelson is 195. Personally Bachmann pack far much more detail in to their models for less, I cant see the LN having an opening firebox door for the price compared to the Bachmann h1 and h2

 

Fair comment. But the Maunsall coaches remained the same.

[lochlongside]

There is a lot of angst here on the Hattons pre-order price. In the nicest possible way   - and at the risk of being considered naive in all this - I would presume Hattons actually based both the original figure for this (back in 2015 when it was first announced) on legacy information/guidance provided by Bachmannn derived initially when this was an idea not even at the drawing office stage. I would also add that up until the point when Bachmann ( and now Dapol if I understand ) introduced their current pricing rules Hattons were very good at not raising prices despite manufacturer price shifts.

My records indicate I allowed £100 for this in my spend profile back in 2015. Since then pay in China has been raise, the £st has gone down at least 20% etc etc.

Having seen the recent Bachmannn/Andy York video interview I upped my personal allowed price to an expected £204 incl discount p&p when I placed my order a few days ago -  I regarded the £90 not as a come-on but as the legacy price pending Bachmann providing a realistic price once they had assessed the work necessary to produce, deliver it and make their profit. After all if a Birdcage is £50+ a complex model like the crane was unlikely to come in at £90. In the event my estimate is out but not by much and given Bachmann's pricing policy although I could possibly get it post free or pennnies off elsewhere,  it will now possibly come in at around this price (unless Bachmann hike the price yet again); Hattons do give you the option of cancelling however IMO the bulk of the price is now set by the manufacturer and not by the retailer;

 

........and just to let you know you are not alone in your grief at pricing practices !! ....another well-known retailer (not Hattons) offered a very good price on Pugs but then jacked the price of Pugs up on me not when the Hornby  model prices were set and the discount prices were being set but just a few short weeks before delivery when they were virtually unavailable anywhere else. That really was disappointing As a result I now only order items from this latter  supplier if I am willing to walk away from the item if they do it again - their loss and you can do the same   if you are still unhappy with Hattons..

(PS no association with Hattons apart from satisfied sometimes customer)

[JSpencer]

Just thought you'd like to know the rrp for the ransomes crane. We've just got the 2018 price list and it says rrp is £249.95. Beautiful model though saw it in the flesh at Warley.

 

Look's like a misunderstanding, please remind Bachmann that it is a "Ransomes" crane and not a "Ransom" crane.

[Poor Old Bruce]

Yes, that's pretty much my thoughts as well. We're talking about a detailed scale model here, not a toy. I think there's value in making it possible to move some of the key components, such as the jib and the outriggers, so that it can be posed in an action shot on a static scene. But I'm not convinced that all this intricate functionality will be used by the people most likely to buy it.

 

Good point about it being a "detailed scale model, not a toy."

 

Just for information, breakdown cranes were not just used for recovery work, they were also used for lifting jobs 'on shed' e.g. lifting a loco (probably just one end) to remove a wheelset with a hot axle box. Derby made frequent use of its crane for such purposes, so you can have a crane doing something useful without staging a derailment or collision.

 

p.s. To put things into some sort of perspective, just have a look at the prices of Roco or Fleishmann locomotives (yes I do realise they are powered while the crane is not!). Continental HO modellers have long been paying higher prices than UK modellers for 'comparable' items even though everyone keeps tellling us that particular market is bigger. They are obviously prepared to pay more for better models than some modellers of British railways. The crane is a niche model, if you want one (or would like one or need one) then you must pay the price. Well done to Bachmann for even attempting to make it, I hope it proves successful for them.

Edited January 9, 2018 by Poor Old Bruce

[APOLLO]

Did they ever stretch new cables on a crane in the yard? By hanging a ladder in midair like you use to see when I was a kid? As that's the only way I can think of using one with the jib up, with out designing a crash on a layout.

 

You could model a Blue Pullman crashed into a train of derailed parrot wagons being recovered by a couple of cranes. 

 

Cost you a fair few bob though !!!!

 

Brit15

[craneman]

I don't usually offer subjective comments, preferring to stay in the safe zone of fact, but I have to say that I find this recent storm of critical comments on the price quite entertaining.

 

There seems to be a general sense of "I can't afford (or can't justify spending) that much on a model crane, therefore Bachmann has priced it wrong", however I bet that the initial production run sells out, probably even before it hits the shops. If so, this will prove that there is a market for this quality at this price.

 

I quite fancy a Rolls-Royce but I can't afford one, however that doesn't mean that Rolls-Royces are overpriced. There is a very healthy market for them.

 

This is without any doubt the finest and most detailed model of a steam breakdown crane yet produced in OO (or HO for that matter), and there will probably never be a better one. There are few people who could scratchbuld one to this standard, and the only kit that came close was the fine Wild Boar Models version. If you bought and built a WBM kit and finished it to the standard of this Bachmann model, how many hours would it take? What value do you put on you time? What is the real total cost of building that model? Far more than £250, I will wager, and the finished product, though good, is not as good. OK, I accept that as a modeller part of the pleasure is in the construction so you don't tend to put a price on your time, but it has a value nonetheless.

 

This model is so far in advance of any similar offerings that there is simply nothing to compare it with. I will wager that if Bachmann had made the grave mistake of making it non-operable or less detailed in order to be able to sell it cheaper, then there would be an equal if not greater outcry.

 

This is an exhibition-standard model and I believe that discerning buyers will welcome that. Personally I think that £250 is a very reasonable price indeed for this, and I quite expected it to be more.

 

I also think that anyone who honestly believed the Hattons prediction on pricing would probably also believe that the earth is flat or that there really is a secret strategic reserve of steam locos buried somewhere in the West Country.  

[Guest Midland Mole @ Footplate]

p.s. To put things into some sort of perspective, just have a look at the prices of Roco or Fleishmann locomotives (yes I do realise they are powered while the crane is not!). Continental HO modellers have long been paying higher prices than UK modellers for 'comparable' items even though everyone keeps tellling us that particular market is bigger. They are obviously prepared to pay more for better models than some modellers of British railways. The crane is a niche model, if you want one (or would like one or need one) then you must pay the price. Well done to Bachmann for even attempting to make it, I hope it proves successful for them.

 

An excellent point, and one that should be emphasised more when people bring up the hobby being expensive. A good example is the Roco USTC S160 with the normal version being priced at £365 (£435 with Sound). Can you imagine the outcry if Hornby had charged that for Sir William Stanier, or if Rapido were charging that for the Stirling Single? It's expensive but the model is excellent so people are happy to pay that for the S160, including people in this country. These cranes will sell, and the cost of the hobby will keep going up because that is the basic economics of it. We cannot have beautifully finished super detailed models that are affordable to all. Anyone who has looked into just how much it costs to get a model to market, as well as pay for staff and business costs, would very quickly see why the prices are what they are.

[phil gollin]

.

 

Well I looked at the model details ;

 

http://www.Bachmann.co.uk/details_archive.php?id=493

 

------------

 

And the video (from about  9:33  to 20:42   ) ;

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/129673-Bachmann-review-of-outstanding-models/

 

 

It does appear that Bachmann are doing such a good job of modelling the variations that they have (sort of) shot themselves in the foot.   They will model very regional (and possibly time within a livery choice) specific models, and IF people are wanting a detailed model will they spend that amount of money for a wrongly highly detailed model ?

 

The video makes my fingers itch, but it also indicates that a Southern Region 1950's crane is not being produced, so it looks like the second batch (?????) for me.

 

.

[letterspider]

I would suggest Bachmann are testing the water to see what people and the market will accept in the UK.

Whilst a lovely model it is not a "Must Have" for me at least.

I'm fully aware the prices have risen sharply due to a number of factors and that we have to pay more. I never take any notice of Hattons pre order prices, but this pricing appears out of proportion.

If this was motorised and a DCC operated model fair enough, but it isn't !

 

I thought this WAS meant to be DCC operated? Well that's me out of the race to buy one

[MarkSG]

I'm normally reluctant to criticise manufacturers for the decisions they make, not least because I know that from our perspective we are always lacking potentially crucial information. And I'm certainly not joining in with the usual me-me-me complaints, amply illustrated on the main Bachmann and Hornby release threads, about a particular loco not being available in a particular livery or the cost of an item clearly aimed at collectors rather than modellers or the quality of an item clearly aimed at the train set buyer. As a general rule, the "I don't want it, so there's no point in making it", or "I can't afford it, so nobody will buy it", or "It's not detailed enough, so it's useless" arguments can be treated with the contempt they deserve.

 

However, in this case, I do think I have a valid perspective and a reason to be concerned. This is too intricate (and too expensive) for the train set market. But I'm also struggling to see how it will appeal to the collector market, a sector which is generally focussed primarily on locos. But that leaves the modeller/hobbyist market. Of which I am one.

 

Now, as a modeller, I'm not excessively price-sensitive. I will pay, and have paid, considerably more than the cost of this model for something that I want and that I think is worth the price. But in nearly all the cases where I consider buying something and then choose not to, my reason for not buying is, ultimately, that it doesn't really fit my main modelling theme and therefore the money spent on it can't be justified. It's why, for example, I haven't ordered a Stirling Single, gorgeous model though it is, and why I didn't buy a Blue Pullman in any of its guises.

 

In this case, though, the crane does fit fairly and squarely into my modelling genre. And it is a model that I actually want. And normally, that would be more than enough to justify buying it.

 

So why am I unsure about whether to purchase? It's because, in this case, I'm genuinely unsure that the model is actually worth the price. Not from a production perspective, the amount it costs to design and build, but whether it would have that value to me as a customer.

 

Which, for me, is unusual. If I want something, I usually have no problem justifying the expenditure. And, if I'm in that position, I suspect others are too.

 

If so, and I'm not alone in being deterred by the price, then Bachmann may struggle to sell these in any great number. But they've clearly invested a lot into the project. If it turns out not to sell as well as expected, they could end up taking a non-trivial hit on their investment.

 

Now, I may be completely wrong. They may have done their market research really well, and be confident of getting a good enough return at the price they've set. And, normally, I'd back a manufacturer's own assessment of the market over that of various uninformed ramblings on an Internet forum. But in this case, I do have reservations, and I think they're well-founded.

 

Only time will tell, of course. But I don't think concerns over the price can be as easily dismissed here as they can with other, more typical models. We will have to wait and see.

[adb968008]

I suspect there could be a greater than average selection of sales to Europe too, it’s within the European price range and there’s a market gap there too. Just as some intermingle HO into there OO selections, there will be some who would take this OO crane and accept it on there HO layout given its massively high level of detail, especially as several British cranes have been across Europe.

Edited January 9, 2018 by adb968008

[Arthur]

 

 

But I'm also struggling to see how it will appeal to the collector market, a sector which is generally focussed primarily on locos.

 

This is prime collector market stuff.

 

Probably a one off, single run (get it now or forget it), a very high quality model, not a loco but something different from anything else, a real centre piece for a collection. It’s delicacy will be a plus to those intending to lock it into a display cabinet.

 

This is one item which will tempt even the most loco-centric collector.

 

.

[letterspider]

Perhaps the eye watering price is to distract everyone from the jump in RRP of the Class 90 - which, unlike the Ransom crane we are all assuming will have several production runs over which to make a profit.

[Not Captain Kernow]

Perhaps the eye watering price is to distract everyone from the jump in RRP of the Class 90 - which, unlike the Ransom crane we are all assuming will have several production runs over which to make a profit.

The price of the Class 90 has not jumped, nor has the price of the crane jumped!  Bachmann have never given a price for them, the only reason people keep thinking these prices have jumped is because of the Hatton's "estimate" prices.

[craneman]

Why are so many people assuming that the crane will be only a single production run?

 

In view of the obvious flexibility of the tooling, which can accommodate just about every variation of every crane for every period, I would be extremely surprised if over time successive runs didn't cater for all persuasions (with the exception of the prototypes with hydraulic relieving bogies i.e., DS1580 and the MoS cranes).

 

Obviously only Bachmann knows what the future holds, but to my mind it would be extraordinary to invest so much in the tooling for this model and then not do the maximum to recoup that cost. A single run makes no sense at all unless the model simply doesn't sell, and that is, I feel, very unlikely.

[The Stationmaster]

Why are so many people assuming that the crane will be only a single production run?

 

In view of the obvious flexibility of the tooling, which can accommodate just about every variation of every crane for every period, I would be extremely surprised if over time successive runs didn't cater for all persuasions (with the exception of the prototypes with hydraulic relieving bogies i.e., DS1580 and the MoS cranes).

 

Obviously only Bachmann knows what the future holds, but to my mind it would be extraordinary to invest so much in the tooling for this model and then not do the maximum to recoup that cost. A single run makes no sense at all unless the model simply doesn't sell, and that is, I feel, very unlikely.

 

I suspect. it is likely to be a 'single run with variations' in the same way that the Blue Pullman was a 'single run'.  In other words a strong incentive to buy now because that is it but a potential (not a plan - big difference) to come back later if the thing succeeds and the after market on Ebay goes bananas.  If at this stage Bachmann say there will be more later that might possibly queer the market for what they have said will be coming.

 

Fortunately as far as I'm concerned the Western cranes seem to have changed very little, except in painted number, between delivery and the addition of the wasp stripes which memory suggests was quite late on.  There might have been changes to the cylinders but that will not bother me - a GWR version will be quite suitable for the late 1950s/very early '60s in my view especially as they stayed in black.  And, as I mentioned previously, having actually worked on a re-railing job with the Old Oak crane with a supervisor and breakdown crew I knew well it would almost be rude not to buy one, so i need to bang off my order in the direction of my not quite so local model shop west of the big river when next I speak to the proprietor.

[phil gollin]

.

 

Just to put the price into some sort of perspective (better ? / worse ? / indifferent ?) Hattons sent out an e-mail with the confirmed price for the 2-HAP of £249.95, with a discount down to £212.46.

 

WHether such a "simple" 2 coach EMU should cost that much is a matter of some concern.

 

.