RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted July 25, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 25, 2016 (edited) An Armchair Question: what is the likely cost (all told) of a commissioned limited run of a simple livery like that applied to 'George Jennings' (simple green with red underframe and red banding, no lining)? depends on the quantity, and when.. if its made alongside another run, then it's just an extension. If it's a one off with no other variants the price may be slightly less interesting dependant on quantity. But I wouldn't expect it to be significantly different to the production models, unless the tooling was to be altered... Many previous limited editions have been released at the same time at a price not too different to the standard models. Edited July 25, 2016 by adb968008 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRAILRAGE Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 My late Nan worked for Huntley & Palmers in Reading. I remember when she retired she came round to my mum and dads with a black and white Photograph of one of the loco's used there. I think it may have been one of the fireless loco's but its been a long time since I've seen it . Think the H & P one will be something special for me for that very reason, so looking forward to getting one. Cheers Trailrage 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 30, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 30, 2016 depends on the quantity, and when.. if its made alongside another run, then it's just an extension. If it's a one off with no other variants the price may be slightly less interesting dependant on quantity. But I wouldn't expect it to be significantly different to the production models, unless the tooling was to be altered... Many previous limited editions have been released at the same time at a price not too different to the standard models. But in the end what it would boil down to is how much you have to pay for a minimum run of 500 - or more likely 1,000 - models. Because unless Hornby have changed their approach for folk other than the NRM (where there was a clear 'special relationship' plus there longstanding wish to be associated with the NRM 'brand') their normal minimum was for 1,000 models although I believe they were prepared to drop to 500 in certain cases. So the sums start to emreg from these starting points - 1. Do you actually have a market for a minimum of 500, possibly 1,000, 'specials and how quickly can you sell them and at what price? 2. Having calculated you ability to sell and estimated a price would Hornby's charge to you, and thus the amount you might have to borrow or add to your mortgage, offer a reasonable rate of return over the period over which you estimate your sales would run? 3. And how much would Hornby charge you in the first place - Hornby are selling the engine at £80 (all but a penny). Assuming you could get a 20% discount you would pay £64 per loco, a bulk order for a special might get a better rate of discount - say 40% but you would still be paying £48 per loco - so 1,000 would mean an outlay of £48,000 (or £24,000 if you could get a deal for 500). That is of course without any development costs which they would probably add (I'd be surprised if they didn't add any). So you would need a hefty wad of cash upfront - then you are back to my second numbered point above. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Budgie Posted July 30, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 30, 2016 . If you don't want angry Scotsmen I suggest you change that to "whisky". How do you know it's not an Irish whiskey distillery? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 . If you don't want angry Scotsmen I suggest you change that to "whisky". A lot of Scots are mumbling about the awards going for best whisky to Japan etc., and the slow revival of the English Whisky Distillers, suppressed during WW1 by Lloyd George. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ian J. Posted July 30, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 30, 2016 If for Irish it's 'whiskey' and for Scots it's 'whisky', what's it for English? * answer: 'real ale' 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigherb Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 Well I would like a Huntley & Palmer blue livery without Huntley & Palmer written on it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tractionman Posted July 30, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 30, 2016 How do you know it's not an Irish whiskey distillery? If it was it'd need to be regauged to five foot three! Cheers, Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted July 30, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 30, 2016 (edited) But in the end what it would boil down to is how much you have to pay for a minimum run of 500 - or more likely 1,000 - models. Because unless Hornby have changed their approach for folk other than the NRM (where there was a clear 'special relationship' plus there longstanding wish to be associated with the NRM 'brand') their normal minimum was for 1,000 models although I believe they were prepared to drop to 500 in certain cases. So the sums start to emreg from these starting points - 1. Do you actually have a market for a minimum of 500, possibly 1,000, 'specials and how quickly can you sell them and at what price? 2. Having calculated you ability to sell and estimated a price would Hornby's charge to you, and thus the amount you might have to borrow or add to your mortgage, offer a reasonable rate of return over the period over which you estimate your sales would run? 3. And how much would Hornby charge you in the first place - Hornby are selling the engine at £80 (all but a penny). Assuming you could get a 20% discount you would pay £64 per loco, a bulk order for a special might get a better rate of discount - say 40% but you would still be paying £48 per loco - so 1,000 would mean an outlay of £48,000 (or £24,000 if you could get a deal for 500). That is of course without any development costs which they would probably add (I'd be surprised if they didn't add any). So you would need a hefty wad of cash upfront - then you are back to my second numbered point above. A Thorough response, but also you need to consider Advertising / Marketing, Postage, Tax (and if your offering a few other dealers the option to sell some, their margin too) also don't under estimate how much space they consume, and how long they take to process the income, wrap/add that custom certificate, and send. There is also the risk of delay, currency but also unexpected production error which could be omitted details or missed changes in paint shade. I had some experience of with limited editions back in the 1990s, model railways and road vehicles, though I would add the margin offered by the manufacturers was the same trade terms, with some payment term differences. The whole process from order to delivery seemed much quicker in them days than it appears now. Agreed on quantities though Hornby have made exceptions, TCDD 8F was an example.. only 200 made.. If it's a one off with no other variants the price may be slightly less interesting dependant on quantity. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/60754-Hornby-turkish-8f/ Edited July 30, 2016 by adb968008 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS1977 Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 A Thorough response, but also you need to consider Advertising / Marketing, Postage, Tax (and if your offering a few other dealers the option to sell some, their margin too) also don't under estimate how much space they consume, and how long they take to process the income, wrap/add that custom certificate, and send. There is also the risk of delay, currency but also unexpected production error which could be omitted details or missed changes in paint shade. I had some experience of with limited editions back in the 1990s, model railways and road vehicles, though I would add the margin offered by the manufacturers was the same trade terms, with some payment term differences. The whole process from order to delivery seemed much quicker in them days than it appears now. Agreed on quantities though Hornby have made exceptions, TCDD 8F was an example.. only 200 made.. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/60754-Hornby-turkish-8f/ The minimum order size seems to vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. Dapol will do Limited edition wagons for a minimum order size of 100, but Bachmann want 500... As to selling through another dealer, that depends on how it's done. I know when West Wales Wagon Works did limited edition wagons in connection with a club, the arrangement was simply that Mike would let the club have 50 at cost price and he'd sell the other 50 himself. So although he didn't make a profit on the wagons the club sold, he was only taking a risk on the 50 wagons he sold (unlike his own wagons, where he took a risk on the full 100). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Budgie Posted July 30, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 30, 2016 A lot of Scots are mumbling about the awards going for best whisky to Japan etc., and the slow revival of the English Whisky Distillers, suppressed during WW1 by Lloyd George. So what are they going to do about it? Mumbling won't get them anywhere. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted July 30, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 30, 2016 (edited) So what are they going to do about it? Mumbling won't get them anywhere. Nothing, English whisky is here and is quite good. However Japanese has been good for a very long time. The issue with Single Malt Scot is they are a victim of their own success. The unpredicted (and tremendous Asian demand) takes more than a decade to prepare for (a 10 yr old takes 10 years...), and whilst the distillers have sought to protect their brand age statements (I.E. keep a 10, 12 18 etc sacred at a higher price), they instead created an ever increasing number of non-age statements (i.e. "the distillers xyz selection.." & "the founder selections, the master of ..." releases) and mixed year blends to the point there is ever increasing single / non-repeat batches that cause mass dilution of variety in the market place... The majority of these releases are in the £35-60 bracket, with literally dozens in this range, with new ones replacing older ones every year..making this run into hundreds of different blends in the last decade. (There are quite a number outside this range too). The Japanese however have been very limited in this approach, and instead just increased the prices to control demand but protect the quality.. Ive seen an 18 yr Yamasaki increase from £45 a bottle to £350 a bottle in a matter of a few years and theres very few non-age statements.. thats why it wins awards. (It is recognised there's substantially less production in Japan than the UK). The risk for Scottish, is a repeat of the 1970s.. over production, too high a price and too many bland statements which encourages a change in tastes... for example the ranges of Gin has massively increased in popularity in the past few years. Even today there's good stocks of early 1970s whisky out there, victim of the late 70s recession and taste changes, some of it is used up in the above non-aged blends on the street today, whilst the better stuff is quite pricey.. rest assured non of it is binned.. but there is a lot of it, some of it gets dumped occasionally (remember Aldi's 40 year old offer recently), how good it is is questionable... correspondingly theres not much 80s stuff about as many distilleries shut up shop, sold to the French or just sold it to the cheap high street blends at the time. not sure how this relates to a Peckett though. Edited July 31, 2016 by adb968008 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRAILRAGE Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 Managed to get alook at the H&P loco photo today. Turns out my Nan had brought it home for my father has had it since he was young. Its just he forgot he had it and had dug it out when she came round that day which was the first time I saw it. the photo looks like its an official one but there is no info on the pic itself so no idea when or whereabouts at the factory it was taken or who may of even taken it. It is indeed one of fireless loco no1 which I'm guessing was Biscuit 1. Its difficult to tell if the loco is actually in use or if the photo was staged but there is a Driver in the cab. the loco looks Brand new so could be a publicity photo there was also a photo of the builders plate whish says W.G.BAGNALL Ltd ENGINEERS No 2473 STAFFORD, ENGLAND. But it has no year stamped on it so am unsure when it was built. I took a photo of the photo and if I could figure out how to post it on here I would, that is as long as it wouldn't infringe on any copyright. Cheers Trailrage Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hroth Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 not sure how this relates to a Peckett though. Its all down to age, taste and managing the market. At least we won't see Pecketts being flogged in Aldi! Although I'm surprised there hasn't been an attempt to sell a cheap trainset like "Caledonian Belle" through Aldi as a Christmas Special item. The price that Hattons are offering at present fits well into their demographic! They'd shift a hell of a lot of boxes that route and might even make a nice little profit, as well as raising the profile of model railways. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Moxy Posted July 31, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 31, 2016 W.G.BAGNALL Ltd ENGINEERS No 2473 STAFFORD, ENGLAND. But it has no year stamped on it so am unsure when it was built. The loco was built in 1932, see Reading Museum Service link http://www.huntleyandpalmers.org.uk/ixbin/hixclient.exe?a=query&p=huntley&f=generic_objectrecord_postsearch.htm&_IXFIRST_=28&_IXMAXHITS_=1&m=quick_sform&tc1=i&partner=huntley&text=railway&tc2=e&s=Su4W5SeJfiT It has also been preserved, reported on the Cholsey & Wallingford Railway in 2005, as a static exhibit http://www.uksteam.info/wsr/picsc/00043035.jpg HTH Moxy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Dickerson Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 Although I'm surprised there hasn't been an attempt to sell a cheap trainset like "Caledonian Belle" through Aldi as a Christmas Special item. The price that Hattons are offering at present fits well into their demographic! They'd shift a hell of a lot of boxes that route and might even make a nice little profit, as well as raising the profile of model railways. Agreed. That said, I could even see a Hamleys, Harrods or Selfridges-themed Christmas set with the new Peckett for the premium market. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS1977 Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 The loco was built in 1932, see Reading Museum Service link http://www.huntleyandpalmers.org.uk/ixbin/hixclient.exe?a=query&p=huntley&f=generic_objectrecord_postsearch.htm&_IXFIRST_=28&_IXMAXHITS_=1&m=quick_sform&tc1=i&partner=huntley&text=railway&tc2=e&s=Su4W5SeJfiT It has also been preserved, reported on the Cholsey & Wallingford Railway in 2005, as a static exhibit http://www.uksteam.info/wsr/picsc/00043035.jpg HTH Moxy Sadly, no longer at the Cholsey and Wallingford Railway and 'preserved' in only the vaguest sense. After the locomotive arrived at Wallingford (without the C&WR knowing it was coming!), two friends and I were offered the chance to purchase it for a "nominal sum". We set about looking for a permanent home for it and eventually decided that the best course of action would be to try to persuade Reading Council to purchase the loco instead. Our contact at Reading Museum Services was very enthusaistic, but the "elected members" less so, at least in practice as every decision seemed to get delayed from one meeting to the next. They did however provide £300 for a condition report to be carried out by an engineer from Quanton Road who gave us a quotation for a cosmetic restoration. We took that back to the Council, who continued to look for a location to put it on display once the work had been carried out. Eventually the Council rep called me to say he'd found somewhere it could go (we never did find out where though I have my inklings it could have been near the North Entrance of Reading station) and could we meet up, but the day the meeting was due to take place, the Readign Post rang me with the news it had been sold elsewhere (for £20K!) - to a Yorkshire farmer as a 'surprise' for his father, who expressed an intention to restore it. He invited us to come and stay in his B&B if we would like to help him, we sent him a copy of the condition report and said "Get the asbestos out and we'll talk about it" and heard nothing since. Google images seems to show it languishing in the middle of a scrapheap and we've heard a rumour it narrowly avoided being blown up at one stage as another of the farmer's surprise presents was a pile of unstable WW2 ammunition! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRAILRAGE Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 I remembe seeing it at Wallingford and managed to get a couple of pics of it but I have to admit I hadn't realised it was the same loco! Was hoping it would be put on a plinth outside Reading station as it would have a been a nice tribute to the towns Heritage. Although seeing it running would have been better but we cant have everything. Very sad to hear it was sold and now with an unsecure future. Can only hope it gets what is deserved. A loving home. Regards Trailrage Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 ......the Reading Post rang me with the news it had been sold elsewhere (for £20K!) - to a Yorkshire farmer as a 'surprise' for his father, who expressed an intention to restore it. He invited us to come and stay in his B&B if we would like to help him, we sent him a copy of the condition report and said "Get the asbestos out and we'll talk about it" and heard nothing since. Google images seems to show it languishing in the middle of a scrapheap and we've heard a rumour it narrowly avoided being blown up at one stage as another of the farmer's surprise presents was a pile of unstable WW2 ammunition! Apparently it was transported to Model Farm, East Bierley ....and here it still is.... Not sure the farmer's father is quite so keen on the idea now.... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 Apparently it was transported to Model Farm, East Bierley ....and here it still is.... Not sure the farmer's father is quite so keen on the idea now.... If he wants to deliver it FOC to Wales, I've got space for it. It's the only loco I've ever driven (but only a few yards), so I'd have a bit more of an attachment to it than he has. I'm not sure how we'd get it into the drive though! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Budgie Posted August 1, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 1, 2016 If he wants to deliver it FOC to Wales, I've got space for it. It's the only loco I've ever driven (but only a few yards), so I'd have a bit more of an attachment to it than he has. I'm not sure how we'd get it into the drive though!Wouldn't it need a proper boiler inspection before anyone can drive it, considering how long since it last moved under its own power? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 Sorry for being pedantic, but it doesn't actually have a boiler. It has a steam accumulator (or reservoir) which is filled with steam from an external source. But yes, it would need an examination as it would be classed as a pressure vessel. Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 Wouldn't it need a proper boiler inspection before anyone can drive it, considering how long since it last moved under its own power? I don't have the skills or money to restore it to working condition, or a source of steam to make it go, but I can remove rust and use a paint brush! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 I don't have the skills or money to restore it to working condition, or a source of steam to make it go, but I can remove rust and use a paint brush! Can you remove asbestos...? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 Can you remove asbestos...? I hardly think it's likely to turn up, so don't need to worry about such things! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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