Class 59 in 00

[Classsix T]

22 hours ago, Steadfast said:

And flipping good for seeing where you're going they are, too! Even on dim they're seriously bright.

 

Jo

I'd hope you might have some idea where you're going Jo!? Hugs!

 

Seriously, I've cab ridden HI fitted locos and the idea of OG Western & Hymek candle lighting freaks me out!

C6T.

[GBRf 66 The Flying Dustman]

1 hour ago, legomanbiffo said:

I am pleased to announce that despite a number of setbacks and challenges, my sound file for the Dapol 59 is just about ready for release into the wild. My first model got lost in the post. Then when a replacement finally arrived I’d been struck down with manflu. Absolutely no fun whatsoever then trying to wrestle with the most complex logic puzzle I’ve ever been set by a model manufacturer. The model does indeed have on-board logic between the auxiliary outputs of the chip and the lights. This ultimately limited what I could do in terms of lighting configurations. After literally hours and hours of experimentation and hair pulling I have achieved the best results I can given the limitations of the circuit board and design. So you have (Dapol’s interpretation of) daytime running, night time running, and yard mode (markers only). You can also disable the tail lights in any of those modes (which I refer to as train mode). It wasn’t possible to program parking mode (reds at both ends). Furthermore, no amount of CV changing would improve on any of the lighting configurations that Dapol have enabled; hardware changes would be required. 

 

As well as extinguishing the tail lights, train mode also switches from loco brake sounds to train brake sounds. This is a feature that I’m retro-fitting to all sound files when time and recordings permit. 

 

Another notable feature of the 59 sound project is the ability to park the loco with the correct sounds of the hydraulic parking brake going on and off. Also featured are; the whirring sounds of the reverser each time you change ends, the driver’s safety device (DSD), battery isolator and so on.

 

I have yet to investigate the smoke generator so the sound project is not yet ‘smoke enabled’.

Hi Biff 

 

brilliant the chip is all done and ready will look forward to getting mine and having a play with the sound functions, sounds like you had fun trying to make the lighting functions work. 

[TomScrut]

1 hour ago, legomanbiffo said:

The model does indeed have on-board logic between the auxiliary outputs of the chip and the lights.

 

I aren't sure why they do this. Is it to make it a bit friendlier to those who want to chuck a 6 function chip in and not change CVs? It's a bit frustrating that they have done it IMO, having lots of light functions and the options opened up by an ESU chip, it's a shame to then be stuck with how they thought it should be done.

 

The Bachmann 90 is similar if I recall correctly.

[Ian J.]

It might be to do with running when in DC mode with a blanking plug?

[TomScrut]

11 minutes ago, Ian J. said:

It might be to do with running when in DC mode with a blanking plug?

 

Most others (including Dapol with their 68) manage to deal with this with switches on the PCB and the blanking plug

[Steadfast]

3 hours ago, legomanbiffo said:

As well as extinguishing the tail lights, train mode also switches from loco brake sounds to train brake sounds. This is a feature that I’m retro-fitting to all sound files when time and recordings permit.

Hiya,

 

That's an interesting feature - out of interest does this vary the sounds of the brake release?  When releasing the train brake, you should hear the loco brake come off as the driver begins to power up too. This video has a a pretty textbook departure on level track at 15:07.

The train is held with both loco and train brakes applied.

Release train brake.

Release loco brake (loud hiss).

As the bogie gauges drop down, give it notch one to stop the train rolling back.

As the gauge continues to fall and reaches zero, apply more notches.

 

Hope that's useful

 

Jo

 

 

 

[ollysussex]

It looks like I may have a motor issue on my ARC version...wonder if anyone else has come across this:

 

In one direction the power is smoothly deployed with a beautiful slow crawl for realistic stop and start (in DC.) In the other direction it starts abruptly at just north of 50% power and comes to a stop just below that - in this direction it's highly unrealistic. The loco is DCC fitted, but I've not yet configured the layout for digital (an upcoming project) and also wondered if the problem will persist when I switch everything over to DCC. I know that smoother starts and stops are possible on DCC, but do you think that the deficiency in the motor as it is at present will prevent this later in DCC? Appreciate any advice on this before I go back to Dapol.

[letterspider]

Dapol Class 122 behaves like this if one of the drive shafts has failed. This is due to plastic teeth with a poor friction fit on a metal shaft. Can be fixed with super glue.

 

Does the Class 59 have plastic ends on metal drive shafts? Hopefully not...

Edited December 28, 2022 by letterspider

[ollysussex]

Posted 2 hours ago

Dapol Class 122 behaves like this if one of the drive shafts has failed. This is due to plastic teeth with a poor friction fit on a metal shaft. Can be fixed with super glue.

 

Does the Class 59 have solid plastic drive shafts? Hopefully not...

 

Thank you letterspider. I haven't delved into the mechanism yet, but I hope not too. I'm inclined to think that returning it Dapol for comment/replacement may be the best option.

 

 

[letterspider]

I've corrected my post,....you DO want solid drive shafts, you don't want metal shafts with the plastic end bits.

I think Dapol used them in the Class 122 DMU to keep them very thin so they could have a hidden mechanism.

[Br60066]

So I was a little disappointed with the factory sound and speaker when running the class 59 along side a Hattons class 66 fitted with an EM2. The Dapol solution was just totally drowned out prompting some investigation into an easy upgrade.

 

To my delight, an EM1 fits perfectly in the speaker space with the only modification being to remove the screw lugs from the EM1. This has also let me run the lighting wires under the speaker to avoid them hitting the diaphragm and interfering with the sound. I have also mounted it with blue tack to act as a vibration absorbing mount and have soldered the speaker directly to the PCB. Took at worst 15 mins to fit and has dramatically improved the sound (especially once you crank the volume up).

 

This speaker was......borrowed from an Accurascale class 92 that I wasn't planning on sound fitting. It's just an EM1 rebranded. Buying directly from Accurascale appears to be the cheapest way to get an EM1 at the moment too so happy days!

 

Edited December 29, 2022 by Br60066

[GBRf 66 The Flying Dustman]

Got my LoKsound V5 this morning and am now having a go at fitting it in the 59 am interested to see what it sounds like with some new bits on the sound file from Legomanbiffo 

[adb968008]

A Quick comparison of the Dapol 59 vs the Hattons 66

 

 

Summary

if you tried any harder to make them different they would end up looking the same.

Didnt you hate it as a kid when that auntie came around and compared older and younger siblings, pointing out the similarities and the differences.
Theres much in common between the two models, and the approach to making them is very similar, but whilst one definitely benefits the lessons learned of the other its clear one takes after one parent more than the other.

Its been a long road, 7 years for the 59, the painted EPs appeared in November 2018, the same time the Hattons 66’s were hitting the shelves

(warley 2018)

 

But there after it all went rather quiet. But December 2022 its here.

 

So a 59 vs a 66… the basic shape is the same, the 66 was built using a 59 profile as it was already approved for use in the UK, so GM just modified it for the needs of the 66.

So the ancestry is there.

 

59 top/66 beneath
 

59 top/66 beneath

 

But what of the model… well here it differs, the Hattons 66 may have arrived before the 59 but it didnt arrive without its issues. 

1. Airdam steps prone to falling off

2. cab steps breaking, due to how fastened to the body

3. Grills falling out (glue in place not lugged down)

4. Axle boxes falling off

 

it did also arrive with nice innovations

 

1. Separate air dams for coupling / none coupling

2. Excellently represented lamp brackets

3. Rotating Axleboxes

4. Volume of separately attached parts and bogie details

 

The liveries are well represented on both, though the Dapol 59 is just so slightly a touch lighter, the roof a little more lighter.

Where they match…

Both have pretty much identical levels of front end and cab details.

 

The Hattons just edges with the metal vs plastic lamp bracket.

However the more crisp, more flush hornbox cover stands out on Dapol 59 is nice by a distance.

 

Both come with parts bags that allow details, and both have airdams that allow full detail and one with couplings. Dapols imo just lets it down over Hattons, as its a cutaway, whilst it just plugs in, Hattons full airdam swap means you dont get that seam line.

59 left/ 66 right

 

That said, its black, it pushfits and in-place its very hard to see.

The Dapol 59 has a one piece set of steps either side, where as Hattons has 4 separate one, which were prone to falling out. The 59 itself has a slightly different design set of steps to the 66, which some Euro class 66’s also use. So its not just a functional spec thats Dapols used, its purposeful too.

 

59 top/66 beneath

Both 59 and 66 have etched roof grills, Hattons were glued on, and were not tight, and hence many models have been seen with loose, lifting or bent grills (see my top most image). The Dapol 59 grill is lugged into the body and hence a tighter fit. It is very similar to Bachmanns 66 in that approach. The detail on the grills themselves is pretty much the same.

 

66 top, 59 beneath

Body side …

The 59 drivers windows are much finer imo than the 66.

The 59 cab handrails are also much finer.

Of course the cab doors are also openable on the 59

The 66 wins on etched grills, and interior render, the 59 is just moulded but is very well represented. Several cases of those 66 etch grills falling out have been seen.

 

Bogies…

The Hattons 66 bogie comprises of over 24 separate pieces, giving 3 layers of relief. The axle boxes were prone to dropping off, as was the brake chain. 
The 59 is much less, 13 pieces, it has no relief as the frame is one piece with brake detail moulded in. Though Cab steps, sanding and suspension are separate.

The axle boxes on the 59 are very secure, and the axle itself is milled to hold it better (like IRM Y33 bogies)…  this is a huge improvement.

 

Cab Door handrail /step

 

This was a source of pain on the 66.. its fastened to the body, removing it could severely damage it, but to remove the body required it. Many s/h models show up with these missing. It made accessing the 66 somewhat tricker / slower…

 

Well they did the obvious… its attached to the body, so its not even an issue.

 

Body removal is very simple, 4 lugs equally spread 2 either side of the body.

The fuel tank is part of the chassis, the body is not very tightly held in, so I just gently tipped it right side up, and the body easily separated.

 

(66587 above, 59206 below).. note the protuding cab steps / handrail on 66587

Both have similar cab lighting contacts.

 

As you can see on the 59, there is a rebate square gap tooled in, for the NRN pods, which are lugged in, and sit on top of the roof. The current NRN pods are etched, and removable (but there is no rebate underneath), 59005 and above should have this rebate, but does not. This is is a mistake. 

 

59001-4 ?

1. the same square is visible at the opposite end, as presumably to strengthen the NRN pod etch lugs at that location too, suitable for 001-4.

2. Note the two holes representing both exhaust styles is designed in to the body. (The exhaust outlet was on the opposite side on 001-4 initially).

 

whilst current releases for the 59/0’s hasn't been announced, it clearly looks to have been considered.

 

 

Onto the chassis…

 

The approach and set up to both is very similar.

 

The 59 imo is set up better…

1. Firstly the lighting at the cab is a light path covered over, where as the 66 is channels with wires held by tape… its channeled out of the way.

2. On the 59 Theres a speaker retainer built in, 66 has no provision for this.

3. The board itself is more compact, though the 66 benefits more switching options, a d some JST connections rather than just soldered.

4. the front lights are screwed in, rather than sitting in a rebate and easily fall out on the 66.

 

There is a smoke unit housing installed in the 59.

 

 

The Dapol 66 has a larger, hungrier motor than the 66, topping out at 0.3amps.

It also has bigger fly wheels. It is not the same motor. The motor itself has a lower rpm and noticeably slower but very acceptable speed than the 66.

There was no sign of any wobble on my rollers.

I fully expect the 59 to have extra torque and better slow speed control than the 66.

 

The drive shafts are plastic on both 66 and 59 however the shaft on the 59 is thicker.

I have seen a few 66’s where the shaft is flimsy and bends, the 59 shouldnt do this, but the weak spot for both is the same… they both clip into a bearing cup with 0.5mm ends. Both have the same gearbox tower, with lid acting as retainer but two different designs.

 

66 above, 59 below

 

Which presents itself down to the bogies, note the relief in brake shoes on the 66, and difference in gearing between the two.

The 66 weighs in at 741g, the 59 at 674g. If you wanted you could easily level that up by adding a weight, but I honestly dont think you need to.

 

So conclusion…

 

i’m puzzled.

 

The 59 clearly has refinements that edge over the 66… the cab window rims, the hornbox,  the handrails. the cab steps, the roof grills, the axleboxes, the light paths, the drive shaft,  even the opening door….

 

are all positives over the 66….

To me the 59 is a head and shoulders above the 66…its much better all round.

Yet looking back at the 2018 EP.. they were already there.

 

Ive looked over hundreds of locos, and you often see patterns that give clues as to the designer and the factory behind the model. The Bachmann and Dapol 121 couldnt be any further apart yet end up at the same result… The Bachmann 66 is a totally different designed model under the hood. Here I see two models designed and assembled extremely similarly, by two different companies, yet feel similar, but almost feel is at pains to be different… even the coupling box is the same style, yet one plugs into a triangle, the other a square.

 

So did the 59 bring the lessons of experience from the 66 ?

 

Imo no, I think it was the other way around, the 59 had it all, I wonder if the 66 was the faster to market by a competitor, but they seem very similar ?

 

 

I’m looking forwards to the contemporary liveries due in a year, its a real pleasure looking over the 59, it sits along side the 66, and indeed the new 92 very well.

 

Edited December 30, 2022 by adb968008

[Mr Grumpy]

Hi adb968008

Thanks for taking the time to provide a nicely balanced comparison between, on the surface, two very similar locomotives. 
It refreshing to read a decent overview without trashing one against the other :-)

Richard

[richard w]

If you have the 59/0 I have a fix for the lights.  As others have pointed out, configuring the correct lighting via the decoder is not possible.  The additional circuitry on the main board prohibits lighting features beyond Dapol's interpretation of class 59 lighting.  Thanks  legomanbiffo for your post regarding this as I was beginning to think I just didn't understand how to program decoders properly. 

 

All 4 lights on my example are now lit correctly for a 59/0.

 

 

Simply solder yellow to white (jumps the markers) and blue to black (jumps the headlights) on both lighting boards.  They are held with a small amount of glue and pop free easily with tweezers.  Despite arriving at this conclusion some time ago I decided to pursue programming which ultimately reached a dead end. 

 

 

The rest of the functions continue to work properly (red lights, cab lights, on/off etc).  Yard mode (markers only) should also work with this as the head and marker light circuits remain separated.

 

I've also removed the NRM pod and adjusted the roof accordingly using a file for 59005. 

 

 

 

Humbrol 11 (from the 1980s) is a good match for the silver Dapol have used.

 

 

Hope that helps.

Edited December 30, 2022 by richard w

[Steadfast]

Cracking work @richard w, I look forward to seeing the work on YouTube. The lights make a heck of a difference, and the roof work is very neat!

 

Jo

[Revolution Mike B]

1 hour ago, richard w said:

If you have the 59/0 I have a fix for the lights.  As others have pointed out, configuring the correct lighting via the decoder is not possible.  The additional circuitry on the main board prohibits lighting features beyond Dapol's interpretation of class 59 lighting.  Thanks  legomanbiffo for your post regarding this as I was beginning to think I just didn't understand how to program decoders properly. 

 

All 4 lights on my example are now lit correctly for a 59/0.

 

 

Simply solder yellow to white (jumps the markers) and blue to black (jumps the headlights) on both lighting boards.  They are held will a small amount of glue and pop free easily with tweezers.  Despite arriving at this conclusion some time ago I decided to pursue programming which ultimately reached a dead end. 

 

 

The rest of the functions continue to work properly (red lights, cab lights, on/off etc).  Yard mode (markers only) should also work with this as the head and marker light circuits remain separated.

 

I've also removed the NRM pod and adjusted the roof accordingly using a file for 59005. 

 

 

 

Humbrol 11 (from the 1980s) is a good match for the silver Dapol have used.

 

 

Hope that helps.

Lovely job that and one that I’ll be undertaking on my 59/2 

[richard w]

Some alterations to the brightness and some Tamiya clear orange to improve the colour temperature.

 

[PieGuyRob]

31 minutes ago, richard w said:

Some alterations to the brightness and some Tamiya clear orange to improve the colour temperature.

 

I presume the work you have done will appear in an Everard Junction video?

[richard w]

15 hours ago, PieGuyRob said:

will appear in an Everard Junction video?

 

I've been filming as I go of course.  The loco is still in progress (currently repainting the upper blue stripe) but I hope to have a video ready in a week or so.

[Revolution Mike B]

1 hour ago, richard w said:

 

I've been filming as I go of course.  The loco is still in progress (currently repainting the upper blue stripe) but I hope to have a video ready in a week or so.

How did you flatten off the ridge in the roof Richard? 

[richard w]

40 minutes ago, Revolution Mike B said:

How did you flatten off the ridge in the roof Richard? 

 

I outlined the area to be flatted with some masking tape and used a flat small file to gently remove material until the flattened area lined up with the masking tape edges.  I then filled in the holes from the etch with Perfect Plastic Putty and sanded that smooth with 1500 grit paper.  Glued the pod back on, masked off the body sides/exhaust and finally blew in some paint from the airbrush over the end of the roof.  I used a very old tin of humbrol 11, decent match to the Dapol shade of silver.

 

 

Edit - I scribed the two panel lines back on with a blunt scalpel blade before painting.

Edited December 30, 2022 by richard w

[Revolution Mike B]

23 minutes ago, richard w said:

 

I outlined the area to be flatted with some masking tape and used a flat small file to gently remove material until the flattened area lined up with the masking tape edges.  I then filled in the holes from the etch with Perfect Plastic Putty and sanded that smooth with 1500 grit paper.  Glued the pod back on, masked off the body sides/exhaust and finally blew in some paint from the airbrush over the end of the roof.  I used a very old tin of humbrol 11, decent match to the Dapol shade of silver.

 

 

Edit - I scribed the two panel lines back on with a blunt scalpel blade before painting.

That’s great thank you 

[adb968008]

6 hours ago, richard w said:

 

I outlined the area to be flatted with some masking tape and used a flat small file to gently remove material until the flattened area lined up with the masking tape edges.  I then filled in the holes from the etch with Perfect Plastic Putty and sanded that smooth with 1500 grit paper.  Glued the pod back on, masked off the body sides/exhaust and finally blew in some paint from the airbrush over the end of the roof.  I used a very old tin of humbrol 11, decent match to the Dapol shade of silver.

 

 

Edit - I scribed the two panel lines back on with a blunt scalpel blade before painting.

Lovely job that.

 

 

[charliepetty]

The Legomanbiffo all New Classs 59 Dapol Project ia available now !!!:

Yes these currenly flying out, but we have plenty of stock here, so they can be ordered at the Introductory price + Speaker from:    https://www.dckits-devideos.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=68&product_id=261

Edited January 3, 2023 by charliepetty