Elizabeth Line / Crossrail Updates.

[The Stationmaster]

 

I believe that is the off-peak service Mike.

2 tph off-peak

4 tph peak

 

 

 

Again, I believe that's the off-peak service.

 

 

HEX is to remain as a separate, independent service, until their agreement to operate on the main line expires in 2023.

 

Originally Crossrail were to operate 4 tph to Heathrow T4.

Some time ago now, TfL agreed with HAL to increase Crossrail services to/from Heathrow to.....

 

4 tph to T4 plus...

2 tph to T5

= a total of 6 tph.

 

That is in addition to the existing HEX 4 tph to T5.

 

From December 2019, there will be...

10 tph to/from Heathrow.

Consisting of...

6 tph to T5 (4 Hex and 2 Crossrail)

4 tph to T4 (all Crossrail)

 

 

 

.

 

Useful thanks Ron but it will be interesting to see what impact discussions with NR have on what are in reality only TfL proposals at this stage.  For example taking the figures you have quoted I make that a total of 6 Crossrail per hour to LHR (presumably off peak?) plus 4 tph to Maidenhead giving a total of 10 tph between the tunnel mouth and Hayes or, in theory, a train every 6 minutes in each direction on the Relief Lines.  We don't know how many of those trains will call at all stations but a reasonable guesstimate is that they will all call at Ealing Broadway and Hayes, and probably at Southall, which starts to get a bit tight for pathing non-stop trains between them unless there is some flighting of Crossrail LHR and Maidenhead trains.  

 

Equally,  currently there are up to 5 off peak trains stopping per hour between Maidenhead and Reading all calling at Twyford (I counted 3 in each direction in 30 minutes yesterday while standing on Twyford station) so unless it is intended to reduce the level of service between Ealing Broadway/Slough/Maidenhead and Reading you can add a further 3 'semi-stopping' passenger trains per hour between Maidenhead and Paddington (plus two fast freight paths per hour).  Looks like it's going to get rather crowded!

[Ron Ron Ron]

Useful thanks Ron but it will be interesting to see what impact discussions with NR have on what are in reality only TfL proposals at this stage. .....

The increase in Heathrow Crossrail services, was agreed between the DfT, TfL and HAL.

They say that they're exploring how they can add another 2 tph to Heathrow T5 (Crossrail 8 tph).

 

 

We don't know how many of those trains will call at all stations but a reasonable guesstimate is that they will all call at Ealing Broadway and Hayes, and probably at Southall, which starts to get a bit tight for pathing non-stop trains between them unless there is some flighting of Crossrail LHR and Maidenhead trains.  

There's a diagram somewhere on the 'net, showing the proposed stopping pattern on the western section.

e.g. Acton Main Line, Hanwell and West Ealing only receive 4 tph each. 

 

 

Today's update statement, says ....

 

As Elizabeth line services share the tracks with other operators’ services, final work on the detail of the full December 2019 timetable continues.

This supports the application to Network Rail for track access for Elizabeth line trains, which should receive final approval in early 2018.

Edited January 30, 2018 by Ron Ron Ron

[jim.snowdon]

 

Jim; how long are those trains currently serving West Drayton during the peaks?

The Crossrail trains will be 9 coaches long and they say there will be 6 tph during the peaks.

 

As for full and standing, on a negative note, the new trains will be mainly standing and standing.

 

The current stopping services are now 2x4 car 387 during the peak, before that they were 5 car 165/166 at best, loaded to maximum capacity. And whilst the 387s are a distinct improvement on the 165s, I can't say I am looking forward to the Crossrail 345s, even if they are 9-car sets all day.

 

Jim

[phil-b259]

The increase in Heathrow Crossrail services, was agreed between the DfT, TfL and HAL.

They say that they're exploring how they can add another 2 tph to Heathrow T5 (Crossrail 8 tph).

 

 

There's a diagram somewhere on the 'net, showing the proposed stopping pattern on the western section.

e.g. Acton Main Line, Hanwell and West Ealing only receive 4 tph each. 

 

 

Today's update statement, says ....

 

There was also an admission by TfL some time back that due to capacity constraints, pretty much all GWML Elizabeth line services would have to operate some form of 'skip stopping' pattern and that direct journeys between certain adjacent stations may not be possible.

[phil-b259]

The current stopping services are now 2x4 car 387 during the peak, before that they were 5 car 165/166 at best, loaded to maximum capacity. And whilst the 387s are a distinct improvement on the 165s, I can't say I am looking forward to the Crossrail 345s, even if they are 9-car sets all day.

 

Jim

 

Ahh but they (the 345s) are run by TfL so will be absolutely wonderful apparently and anyone who says different knows nothing about passenger transport according to those who live within the M25....

[Zomboid]

345s will be absolutely wonderful metro trains. Loads of doors for fast loading and unloading, plenty of circulation space, and the lack of seats doesn't matter because no one will be on one for more than 10 minutes.

 

Ideal trains for a metro.

Edited January 31, 2018 by Zomboid

[jim.snowdon]

345s will be absolutely wonderful metro trains. Loads of doors for fast loading and unloading, plenty of circulation space, and the lack of seats doesn't matter because no one will be on one for more than 10 minutes.

Ideal trains for a metro.

They'd do well to sell them to a metro system, then.

 

I wonder what the folks on the Shenfield services make of them?

 

Jim

[jim.snowdon]

There was also an admission by TfL some time back that due to capacity constraints, pretty much all GWML Elizabeth line services would have to operate some form of 'skip stopping' pattern and that direct journeys between certain adjacent stations may not be possible.

That has been the case since well before the present electrification was contemplated. Langley and Iver alternate with Burnham and Taplow, and Hanwell and West Ealing were served only by the Heathrow / Greenford branch services since the former started.

 

Jim

[Zomboid]

They'd do well to sell them to a metro system, then.

 

I wonder what the folks on the Shenfield services make of them?

 

Jim

The one person I know who regularly uses that line (not a railway person) prefers the 315s because they have more seats which are more comfortable.

Only one person of course, but pretty damning. The drop off from a 165 to a 345 is one thing, but a 315 is pretty much the definition of "clapped out" these days.

[jim.snowdon]

The one person I know who regularly uses that line (not a railway person) prefers the 315s because they have more seats which are more comfortable.

Only one person of course, but pretty damning. The drop off from a 165 to a 345 is one thing, but a 315 is pretty much the definition of "clapped out" these days.

That will make the 387s something of an Indian Summer for us on the Western, then.

 

Jim

[Karhedron]

The current stopping services are now 2x4 car 387 during the peak, before that they were 5 car 165/166 at best, loaded to maximum capacity. And whilst the 387s are a distinct improvement on the 165s, I can't say I am looking forward to the Crossrail 345s, even if they are 9-car sets all day.

 

Presumably the 387s will still be handling the services into Paddington so you will still be able to take one if you are travelling on longer journeys and/or don't mind changing to tube/crossrail on arrival. You will only have to take a 345 if you don't want to break your journey (something which isn't even an option currently). So the 345s will be supplementing the 387s rather than replacing them (or will they be replacing them on some of the inner suburban services?).

[sb67]

They'd do well to sell them to a metro system, then.

 

I wonder what the folks on the Shenfield services make of them?

 

Jim

 

I got one from Romford last week, fantastic new train but I wouldn't want to make a long journey on it, there's less seats but more space and I got to say I don't really like sitting sideways. On the other hand many a time I've had to fight my way through a packed carriage from the middle seats on an older class 315. If they ease the crush at peak times they'll be worth every penny.

Steve.

[phil-b259]

Presumably the 387s will still be handling the services into Paddington so you will still be able to take one if you are travelling on longer journeys and/or don't mind changing to tube/crossrail on arrival. You will only have to take a 345 if you don't want to break your journey (something which isn't even an option currently). So the 345s will be supplementing the 387s rather than replacing them (or will they be replacing them on some of the inner suburban services?).

 

The 387s will be replaced on virtually all Paddington - Reading stoppers (and maybe some semi-fasts too due to TfLs recent 'land grabs' on GWML services so they can increase Elizabeth Line services through the core)

 

Make no mistake, lots of travellers will be forced into 345s whether they like it or not

Edited January 31, 2018 by phil-b259

[The Stationmaster]

Presumably the 387s will still be handling the services into Paddington so you will still be able to take one if you are travelling on longer journeys and/or don't mind changing to tube/crossrail on arrival. You will only have to take a 345 if you don't want to break your journey (something which isn't even an option currently). So the 345s will be supplementing the 387s rather than replacing them (or will they be replacing them on some of the inner suburban services?).

 

It all depends which station you join at and which of TfL's blather you believe.  Some stations definitely won't get 387s so will have to put up with the toilet less, luggage rack less, standee 345s.  Any stations which get a choice might only get it during the peak and there's no doubt that at the outer stations (Slough and beyond) there are likely to be queues to get on the 387s and not onto the 345s with various commuter groups already up in arms about the threat of having the 345s dumped on them.   I understand that the 07.23 from Twyford on weekday mornings is already full & standing from Twyford and it is formed with 2x4 car 387 - although, logically, it should remain 387 worked in the post Crossrail era  and could well be increased to 12 cars it is already clear that replacing it with a 345 will cause major ructions among commuters forced to stand for a journey of (just) over 30 minutes.

 

Sorry but TfL haven't really got the first idea about what they are planning to do in terms of the standards passengers expect and the ever increasing amounts they are being asked to pay.  hence representations being made by commuter groups about the GW franchise renewal are asking for 387 services to be retained.

[Zomboid]

I doubt it's that TfL don't have a clue. It's more that they're answerable only to the Mayor and London assembly, so are building their plan around what those parties want.

And no doubt if you want to go from Acton to Bond Street their offering will be terrific. Because TfL are good at metro services.

Whose idiotic idea it was too send Crossrail any further west than Heathrow is another question.

[caradoc]

If TfL do displace Class 387 workings, what are Great Western going to do with all their brand new sets; They've got 45 of them, and already they can't get to Oxford ! On a selfish note, I would hope and expect that the Didcot/Paddington stoppers will run fast from Maidenhead, with stops at Slough and Ealing Broadway, the latter enabling perhaps a same-platform change onto Crossrail ?

[adb968008]

There was also an admission by TfL some time back that due to capacity constraints, pretty much all GWML Elizabeth line services would have to operate some form of 'skip stopping' pattern and that direct journeys between certain adjacent stations may not be possible.

That’s no different to Southern then, though one difference is at least passengers will know which stations are being skipped, with Southern it’s a turn up and hope lottery, even the driver doesn’t know sometimes...

 

One recent sojourn to Sutton, the train stopped as planned at Mitcham Eastfields, then the driver announced he wasn’t opening the doors, as controller advised him to cancel the stop and keep going...so he just set off again, much to everyone’s annoyance.

 

I know TFL rail brings resentment from some, but the West Croydon line has none of this southern guff, it works, reliably, well and frequent... it would be useful if they took more of these routes off Southern. TFL ain’t that bad, services west of Heathrow May be more reliable with TFL than anyone else.

Edited February 1, 2018 by adb968008

[The Stationmaster]

If TfL do displace Class 387 workings, what are Great Western going to do with all their brand new sets; They've got 45 of them, and already they can't get to Oxford ! On a selfish note, I would hope and expect that the Didcot/Paddington stoppers will run fast from Maidenhead, with stops at Slough and Ealing Broadway, the latter enabling perhaps a same-platform change onto Crossrail ?

 

GWR were planning a two trains per hour service east of Reading that was limited stop and would connect out of the branches with trains calling at Twyford, Maidenhead, Slough, Hayes, and Ealing Broadway then Paddington; presumably at least one of these trains (possibly both?) would come from west of Reading.  What has happened to this proposal (announced by Mark Hopwood as 'we intend to ...' ) is not known and at a meeting of various people in the local commuter group a couple of weeks ago it was agreed that the Secretary would write to Mark to get an update on this - and ask why the service was not introduced when most of the suburban trains went electric earlier this month?

 

Ealing Broadway would obviously be an ideal interchange station to join Crossrail as it would offer the best journey times off the sort of semi-fast service I mentioned above and it is, in normal working, a 100% level interchange as trains share the same platform - far simpler and more convenient than changing to Crossrail at Paddington .  In addition the semif-fasts would run to the mainline station at Paddington which would offer better interchange with various other UndergrounD lines (particularly the H&S/Circle outer rail) and better access to/from the taxi rank than the Crossrail platforms.  As I'm getting older my wife has increasing knee problems the shorter the distance between trains and taxis at Paddington the better although we have no choice to put up with the already considerably worsened arrangements forced by Crossrail and the ludicrous added route march to get to the H&S platforms.  Overall the main idea behind Crossrail, and TfL's approach to things, seems to be to discourage rail travel via Paddington rather than enhance it.

Edited January 31, 2018 by The Stationmaster

[jim.snowdon]

In case anyone hadn't noticed, all the GW 387 sets that I have seen so far are equipped with shoegear for third rail DC operation (and some of the early deliveries have been to Brighton and back on test runs). That they have retained it into service would suggest that some of them, at least, they are earmarked for the Southeast routes after the 345s displace them from the Paddington - Reading services.

 

An interesting feature of Ealing Broadway has been the construction of a new footbridge at the London end of the platforms, facilitating interchange between the main and relief line platforms, as well as a street access, but not interchange with the Underground services. It would suggest that somewhere in the plan (assuming there is one) services from west of Maidenhead might be stopping on the main line to facilitate interchange with Crossrail. If that is the case, it will have knock-on effects on the availability of paths for the longer distance services.

 

As for TfL, the impression I get is that given the chance, TfL want to take over the whole of the London suburban network in the belief that they can do a better job that anyone else and that London's transport is for London to decide.So far they have had a failrly easy ride, given that for the West Croydon/Crystal Palace, Shenfield and Watford services they have the raliway largely to themselves; from what I have heard, they aren't too happy at having to share the North London Line with freight services, and the same will be true for the western end of Crossrail, where the situation will no tbe helpd by its being a diversionary route for the Southampton - Brimingham/WCML container services when the route via Oxford is blocked.

 

Jim

Edited January 31, 2018 by jim.snowdon

[Ron Ron Ron]

...An interesting feature of Ealing Broadway has been the construction of a new footbridge at the London end of the platforms, facilitating interchange between the main and relief line platforms, as well as a street access, but not interchange with the Underground services.....

 

Might that possibly be the new escape footbridge that I recall was included in the station redevelopment plan?

Platform escape routes are being created on many new platforms and redeveloped platforms.

 

 

.....the same will be true for the western end of Crossrail, where the situation will no tbe helpd by its being a diversionary route for the Southampton - Brimingham/WCML container services when the route via Oxford is blocked.

Realistically speaking, if the proposed intense Crossrail operation is incorporated in the forthcoming new timetable, will paths still be available for such diversions during daylight hours?

Freight paths are already going to be restricted during peak periods and there's very little, if no slack outside of them during the day, so how can diversions be accommodated?

 

.

[jim.snowdon]

Might that possibly be the new escape footbridge that I recall was included in the station redevelopment plan?

Platform escape routes are being created on many new platforms and redeveloped platforms.

Good point, although it would the first one I have consciously come across as a new installation .

 

Realistically speaking, if the proposed intense Crossrail operation is incorporated in the forthcoming new timetable, will paths still be available for such diversions during daylight hours?

Freight paths are already going to be restricted during peak periods and there's very little, if no slack outside of them during the day, so how can diversions be accommodated?.

It will be interesting to see how that works out between GWR, TfL and the FOCs. There have been instances in the past where one TOC has tried to grab all the paths and been told no, if not by NR then by the ORR, and the FOCs got their way in the earlier stages of Crossrail when the latter effectively wanted to cut off access to Acton Yard by preventing there being sufficient gaps between paths to allow freights out of the yard. It isn't TfL's railway and NR are obliged to provide open access.

 

Jim

[Glorious NSE]

For weekend engineering work diversions I suspect finding paths won't be so tight as it will be on weekdays?

If there needs to be a longer term diversion (so requiring weekday trains) - then running via Westbury>Cheltenham and via Staines>WCML have all been used in the past as alternatives in similar situations, not all need to run via this route (and haven't in the past).

Edited February 1, 2018 by Glorious NSE

[jim.snowdon]

For weekend engineering work diversions I suspect finding paths won't be so tight as it will be on weekdays?

 

If there needs to be a longer term diversion (so requiring weekday trains) - then running via Westbury>Cheltenham and via Staines>WCML have all been used in the past as alternatives in similar situations, not all need to run via this route (and haven't in the past).

It isn't so long ago that the Oxford line was closed due to the failure of a cutting slope, not to mention Network Rail's increasing habit of taking week long (and longer) possessions to undertake major works. On both occasions, Reading - Acton - Willesden became the alternative route.

 

It also needs to be remembered that whilst a train can be routed anywhere there is railway, and with sufficient gauge clearance, especially for containers, use of a route still depends on that FOC having drivers who have the requisite route knowledge, as well as there being sufficient paths and, if necessary, long enough loops in which to put the additional trains. The route via Cheltenham also has the impediment of the Lickey Bank, which is in itself quite a limitation on pathing, as well as operations if a banker is needed.

 

The days of BR, when drivers had a greater go-anywhere capability and network decisions could be taken, went with Privatisation.

 

Jim

[The Stationmaster]

 

Might that possibly be the new escape footbridge that I recall was included in the station redevelopment plan?

Platform escape routes are being created on many new platforms and redeveloped platforms.

 

 

Realistically speaking, if the proposed intense Crossrail operation is incorporated in the forthcoming new timetable, will paths still be available for such diversions during daylight hours?

Freight paths are already going to be restricted during peak periods and there's very little, if no slack outside of them during the day, so how can diversions be accommodated?

 

.

 

I think it is the footbridge you refer to Ron.

 

As far as freight diversions are concerned that is I believe a contract obligation on NR although in the past but not all services have been diverted that way.  However if such diversions are to continue it would be relatively simple to deal with - just cancel some Crossrail trains to make paths available (I wonder if TfL are aware of such a possibility because they are extremely naive if they think service 'thinning' of various types and for numerous reasons simply isn't going to happen and NR are even more naive if they don't make that clear to TfL).  Incidentally - and I saw someone repeat it on some TfL friendly website last year - the agreed situations for freight paths is two paths per hour in each direction outside the peaks and freights currently run in the shoulders of the peak and contra peak with occasional trains running in the peak direction;  NR will have to break a lot of contracts, including specific contracted paths, if that is to change.  (However it should be pointed out that is now over a quarter of a century since I secured that agreement with the planners of the previous incarnation of Crossrail - but the number of freights on the GWML east of Reading has changed little since then.)

[The Stationmaster]

Good point, although it would the first one I have consciously come across as a new installation .

 

 

Jim

At Reading the 'escape' provision  is a subway.