DavidB-AU Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 (edited) Merseytravel announced the five shortlisted bidders for a contract to supply around 50 new electric multiple-units for the Merseyrail suburban network centred on Liverpool on January 11: Bombardier; CAF; Mitsui in a consortium with Alstom and East Japan Railway’s rolling stock manufacturing business J-Trec; Siemens; Stadler. http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/traction-rolling-stock/single-view/view/five-bidders-on-merseyrail-train-replacement-shortlist.html EDIT: Topic Title changed. Edited December 17, 2016 by DavidB-AU 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
david.hill64 Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 Just been dealing with J-TREC..................................what can I say? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold JohnR Posted January 12, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 12, 2016 Having seen the 378's and S-stock for TfL, I'd like to think this should go to Bombardier at Derby. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium nightstar.train Posted January 12, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 12, 2016 Its interesting that that article talks of 'around 50 new trains', and possibly opening up new destinations such as Warrington and Crewe (if they get dual voltage types). The current Mersyerail fleet is 59 3-car trains, so I guess we can assume that some, if not all, of the new trains will be longer, probably 6-car. My wife comes from Southport and I've ridden in the venerable 507s and 508s. They're not bad, but are showing their age now. Merseyrail do have the oldest fleet network, so it's not before time. Just been dealing with J-TREC..................................what can I say? Do tell ..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lippy Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 Biggest problem with the Merseyrail 507/508 fleet is the Wirral loop line, it causes so much wear on the wheelsets they're always haveing to reprofile them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 Having seen the 378's and S-stock for TfL, I'd like to think this should go to Bombardier at Derby.I'm sure the other contenders are capable of building a decent train. Though it'll become a political issue if going elsewhere endangers the Derby factory. Is there much slack there now they're building the crossrail trains? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caradoc Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 Just as long as the new trains don't have the awful longitudinal seating arrangement of the 378s, which makes it nigh on impossible to enjoy the view from the carriage window. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted January 12, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 12, 2016 It should go to bombardier for no other reason to support British jobs if that's the whole list 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 It should go to bombardier for no other reason to support British jobs if that's the whole list AFAIK a politically based decision isn't possible under the rules.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 Just as long as the new trains don't have the awful longitudinal seating arrangement of the 378s, which makes it nigh on impossible to enjoy the view from the carriage window. While being able to get a good view from your seat is very nice, part of any high density commuter train requirement will be to have the capacity to transport x-zillion people per hour/day/year. I don't suppose sightseeing facilities gets anyway near the specification? I'm sure it's very busy in the peaks, but is Merseyrail rammed enough to warrant longitudinal, Overground type seating arrangements? . 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
surfsup Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 (edited) It should go to bombardier for no other reason to support British jobs if that's the whole list And Siemens don't? I could get into a long debate over the Siemens v Bombardier business that resulted from Thameslink, but just because Bombardier has a facility here doesn't mean everything is built here. AFAIK for example, large bits of the interior of an S Stock come from Bombardiers China facility. Siemens do have a far great 'British Connection', for example their first patent was registered in London in the 1880s while Godalming in Surrey was the first town in the UK to have a public electricity supply & electric Streetlights. Siemens has many business units over here including Healthcare, Mobility and Energy, and their Poole, Chippenham and Sunderland facilities supply a lot of items for their Mobility (formerly Transportation) side, including whole cabs for all Siemens Trains - Made as one module in the UK, CCTV & Train Control systems are made in Poole, Chippeham - braking systems etc... Besides, Siemens have proved themselves to be adaptable - something Bombardier hasn't been for many a year until the Aventra Mk2. Govia Thameslink has appointed Siemens to build a version of the Desiro City for the Moorgate lines, so I see no reason why one of those wouldn't work just as well down there as an equivalent - but now out of production - 378 from Bombardier. CAF And Stadler are interesting choices, Both are keen to gain further entry into the UK Market and while neither has an off the shelf product, are prepared to produce a UK and specific to Merseyside version of their current products. Mitsui is the odd one out - They have worked well to produce some good rolling stock for Irish Rail - The Mitsui / Hyundai Rotem / JTREC (Formerly Tokyu Car Coporation of Japan if anyone's interested) consortium produced the 22000 long range DMU, While Mitsui & JTREC has rather successfully produced a reasonable fleet of EMUs for the DART system of Dublin (So JTREC may have the upper hand on this one). Rather unlike the Alstom produced DART EMUs which IE has been reputedly trying to sell! Alstom are however talking about opening up a Rolling Stock Maintenance facility of their own up near Widnes (which could turn into a rolling stock assembly facility?) Which leaves me wondering as to whether this combination could work out as an Alstom built bodyshell, with JTREC bogies. The traction package could be supplied by either Alstom Preston or JTRECs. And Bombardier, well. The problem is, unless they have something hiding up their sleeve, is that all they could offer is either a modified version of the Aventra Mk2 (which is under construction for CrossRail) or an S Stock derivative. (N.B. Not an employee of Siemens, but having studied them and built up good connections with them for coursework, an admirer of their engineering! Also looking at the facts, than a politically motivated decision) (PS. I do also have the Flu at the moment, so anything I type or say can come out looking a little annoyed - sorry.) Edited January 12, 2016 by surfsup Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerald Henriksen Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 While being able to get a good view from your seat is very nice, part of any high density commuter train requirement will be to have the capacity to transport x-zillion people per hour/day/year. I don't suppose sightseeing facilities gets anyway near the specification? I'm sure it's very busy in the peaks, but is Merseyrail rammed enough to warrant longitudinal, Overground type seating arrangements? . Part of the question also needs to be what kind of ridership do they think will happen in 5, 10, 20 years given the lifetime of the trains. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted January 12, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 12, 2016 AFAIK a politically based decision isn't possible under the rules.. Ahh yes the rules, the same ones that paved the way for hundreds of HSTs and class 60s throughout the world! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
david.hill64 Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 [quote name="nightstar.train" post="2160938" timestamp="1452594369 Do tell ..... Cannot say too much but JTREC is producing new trains for Bangkok. They are excellent at assembling trains but not really a design company and the ability to comply with EN standards is questionable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonC Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 AFAIK a politically based decision isn't possible under the rules.. The french and germans seem to be able to ignore the rules when it suits them ... why cant we? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mcfarlane Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 I'm sure the other contenders are capable of building a decent train. Though it'll become a political issue if going elsewhere endangers the Derby factory. Is there much slack there now they're building the crossrail trains? I'm sure I'm not the only one who is a bit cynical about the whole 'Bombardier Derby will close unless they get this order' nonsense which gets trotted out by the unions and Derby MPs every time they bid for a train order. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
28XX Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 Julian, Dick and Anne George and Timmy the dog Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 It should go to bombardier for no other reason to support British jobs if that's the whole list That worked out well in the 50s/60s http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/106997-modernisation-plan-diesels/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidB-AU Posted December 17, 2016 Author Share Posted December 17, 2016 Stadler to supply new Merseyrail trainshttp://www.railjournal.com/index.php/commuter-rail/stadler-to-supply-new-merseyrail-trains.html 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted December 17, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 17, 2016 I knw several people who work at Merseyrail - the proposal is for DOO, that's not going down too well (understatement). Although they are getting 52 (I think) new units to replace the existing 59 the intention is to increase the service because the reliability will be improved and so availability will follow - wing and a prayer comes to mind but time will be a telling and it may prove to be a good move. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
black and decker boy Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 Some info posted on WNXX from the Merseytravel site http://www.merseytravel.gov.uk/about-us/Documents/New%20Merseyrail%20Trains%20Factsheet%20-%20On-board%20the%20train.pdf http://www.merseytravel.gov.uk/about-us/Documents/New%20Merseyrail%20Trains%20Factsheet%20-%20Getting%20on%20and%20off%20the%20train.pdf The cabs and in particular the window and Perspex door seem to be generating lots of debate amongst traincrew there Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
antrobuscp Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 I don't think the airline style seating will go down very well with the Merseyside travelling public. From the design images this appears to represent the majority of the seating. The existing arrangements were retained, I seem to remember, when the 507/8s were introduced because they continued the popular style used in the last LMS stock. No doubt this is all about "sardine packing" and money. I wait with interest to see further details of the rolling stock. Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockershovel Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 The french and germans seem to be able to ignore the rules when it suits them ... why cant we? I voted against the then-EEC in 1979 and against the EU for the same reason; that our useless politicians (of either main party) clearly don't understand how it works, partly because they mostly don't speak the language(s). There have always been a range of things which could be done, quite legitimately within existing rules, to promote our interests, but there seems to be no will to do so. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caradoc Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 What's wrong with airline style seating ? Personally I prefer it as I normally travel alone and don't particularly want to be face to face with a complete stranger. If it also allows more seats in the same length carriage, that is good as well, given that one of the things 'everyone' knows about our trains is that they are always overcrowded. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Saunders Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 The cabs and in particular the window and Perspex door seem to be generating lots of debate amongst traincrew there The front view was one of the selling points for the first generation DMU's and could be again! Mark Saunders Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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