Stadler to supply new Merseyrail trains

[antrobuscp]

What's wrong with airline style seating ? Personally I prefer it as I normally travel alone and don't particularly want to be face to face with a complete stranger. If it also allows more seats in the same length carriage, that is good as well, given that one of the things 'everyone' knows about our trains is that they are always overcrowded.

It is a personal preference, I accept. However, having lived all my life in Merseyside, this will be the first time that the 3rd rail electrified network has used this style of seating, and it has been mentioned in some of the launch material that a preference was expressed by many users for the existing style. For myself, I think the airline styles that I have seen feel more "closed in" and are definitely a disadvantage for family groups.

 

It is difficult to square the circle of increasing capacity v cost reduction. I note that all the increased carrying capacity is standing rather than seated.

 

Time will tell as to public opinion.

 

Colin

[david.hill64]

I don't think the airline style seating will go down very well with the Merseyside travelling public. From the design images this appears to represent the majority of the seating. The existing arrangements were retained, I seem to remember, when the 507/8s were introduced because they continued the popular style used in the last LMS stock. No doubt this is all about "sardine packing" and money.

 

I wait with interest to see further details of the rolling stock.

 

Colin

Probably dictated by interior crashworthiness considerations.

[ColinK]

Interesting that they are articulated.

[caradoc]

It is a personal preference, I accept. However, having lived all my life in Merseyside, this will be the first time that the 3rd rail electrified network has used this style of seating, and it has been mentioned in some of the launch material that a preference was expressed by many users for the existing style. For myself, I think the airline styles that I have seen feel more "closed in" and are definitely a disadvantage for family groups.

 

It is difficult to square the circle of increasing capacity v cost reduction. I note that all the increased carrying capacity is standing rather than seated.

 

Time will tell as to public opinion.

 

Colin

 

Colin, the Merseytravel Fact Sheet (see #21) says there will be a mix of airline and group-of-four seating, although I wonder what the ratio of each will be. Hopefully everybody will be able to find the seat they prefer !

[antrobuscp]

Colin, the Merseytravel Fact Sheet (see #21) says there will be a mix of airline and group-of-four seating, although I wonder what the ratio of each will be. Hopefully everybody will be able to find the seat they prefer !

Thanks, I did see that, but the images would suggest the majority will be airline style.

 

I also noticed the "quad-art" formation.

 

It will be interesting to see the finished article.

 

The forward views would be good, but I could understand crew resistance.

 

Colin

[great central]

 

The forward views would be good, but I could understand crew resistance.

 

Colin

 

Too right after the behavior of some people last night

[ardbealach]

Could the use of the articulated sets be anything to do with the radii of the curves on the Loop Line?  Travelling on the current stock around the Loop there is a lot of wheel noise - squealing from the wheels - as the train makes its way around.  I seem to recall when the Loop part of Merseyrail first opened concerns were expressed then about excessive wear on wheels and track on the Loop section.  

[antrobuscp]

Too right after the behavior of some people last night

Sadly, that sounds like the sort of situation I had in mind, and certainly why a second on-board presence is desirable aside from any other safety considerations. I'm not involved other than as a passenger, by the way.

 

Colin

[corneliuslundie]

I assume that the articulation comes from the company's experience with trams/light rail where it is common.

Jonathan

[Ron Ron Ron]

I assume that the articulation comes from the company's experience with trams/light rail where it is common.

Jonathan

 

Stadlers heavy rail FLIRT MU's are produced as articulated units.

The ones they are supplying for the Greater Anglia franchise are similar.

 

 

.

Edited December 18, 2016 by Ron Ron Ron

[Steamport Southport]

I don't care if they are articulated or what type of seats they have.

 

 

Where's the toilets?

 

 

Not to have them in the 21st century is disgraceful. Not just for elderly or disabled passengers. Anyone tried travelling from Chester or Southport after a night out? Usually to find the ones in Central station are locked.  Even the much maligned Pacers have toilets.

 

 

 

Jason

[rockershovel]

Colin, the Merseytravel Fact Sheet (see #21) says there will be a mix of airline and group-of-four seating, although I wonder what the ratio of each will be. Hopefully everybody will be able to find the seat they prefer !

I certainly never met anyone in my commuting days who expressed a preference for airline style seating, although it isn't "real" airline seating ... the seat in front doesn't recline to within inches of your nose and stay there...

 

Regarding toilets, they remind me of the new articulated tube trains (well, new to me, anyway) and the various tram and light railway systems in Europe... none of which have toilets because the journey times are quite short.

Edited December 18, 2016 by rockershovel

[jjb1970]

I prefer airline seats, and it is noticeable just how many people choose airline seats in preference to table bays when there is a choice available.

['CHARD]

There are no toilets on Class 313s either, it is - as someone has said - down to journey times and the Metro-styled nature of the service.  I don't believe Tyne and Wear Metro has toilets, obviously the Tube doesn't, nor do any of the tram networks.  

 

Let's face it, buses do equivalent or longer journeys, and last time I looked there was no toilet on the Alexander Dennis Enviro 400.

[Steamport Southport]

Well journey times on the Merseyrail network could work out at over two hours if you are travelling between Chester and Southport. With plans to extend the network to places such as Wrexham and Warrington. As I've said the toilets in Central station and most other stations are often locked.

 

The last time I looked this isn't a tram or metro system. The Southport line, line to Hunts Cross and the Birkenhead to Chester route were always classed as mainlines.

 

But as I've said it's the 21st century and these things are going to be running well into that. With little improvement over the existing stock. But what do I know, I only have to travel on the damn things.

 

 

Jason

[surfsup]

I can understand the reason for the lack of toilets on these units - Unfortunately the decision will more than likely lie due to the risk of vandalism. I remember when TfL Took control of the London Overground operations and immediately locked the toilets on the 150s. It's also quite common to see vandalism on SWTs 450s and 444 Fleet when they end up on one of the more suburban duties emanating from Waterloo. Sadly a sign of the times I'm afraid. The better idea would be to make open up more toilets at staffed stations, where the staff can at least attempt to look after them.

[antrobuscp]

Well journey times on the Merseyrail network could work out at over two hours if you are travelling between Chester and Southport. With plans to extend the network to places such as Wrexham and Warrington. As I've said the toilets in Central station and most other stations are often locked.

 

The last time I looked this isn't a tram or metro system. The Southport line, line to Hunts Cross and the Birkenhead to Chester route were always classed as mainlines.

 

But as I've said it's the 21st century and these things are going to be running well into that. With little improvement over the existing stock. But what do I know, I only have to travel on the damn things.

 

 

Jason

 

I must admit, when I first looked at the photos of the units and the mock ups of the interior, the thought that these were more like trams than trains went through my mind. That's just my personal feeling. My use of the trains now is normally out of peak times, so I don't expect to use them when they will be in sardine mode, and I would expect to be seated. I wouldn't fancy standing for too great a distance.

 

As I've said already, I'll be interested to see the end product.

 

Colin

[Fenman]

I prefer airline seats, and it is noticeable just how many people choose airline seats in preference to table bays when there is a choice available.

I'd be interested to see any research, rather than anecdote.

 

The last time I took a train to Brighton I walked past dozens and dozens of empty airline style rows, but only the very last group of four in the 12th carriage was not already occupied. That suggests to me the balance of airline v, tables, for that service, was wrong.

 

Paul

[Steamport Southport]

As a merseyside resident in the wirral I feel that the driver only option is dangerous.

 

The drivers have enough to worry about just keeping the services on time aswell as getting us to our destinations safely without having to operate doors aswell.

 

The incident at james st station 5 years ago where a 16 year old when down as a 1 under is bad enough and granted these new trains are supposed to be going to minimise that risk but without a 2nd crew member to operate doors and check that it is safe to start in mind is asking for trouble.

 

I don't care who berates me for these comments but thats how I feel about this. Also what I would certainly ask merseyrail is are these soon to be former guards going to be trained as drivers or are they going to end up unemployed like me.

 

With regards to the stock I think permanently formed 6 car units of a similar design to the S Stock trains would be a damn good idea as they have 3 pairs of doors per coach thus allowing more passengers on and off in quicker times than current practice.

 

I agree 100% as regards the guard. I've no interest in the political or union issues, but safety is important.

 

You just have to travel on these trains when the racing is on at Chester, Aintree or Christmas parties to see the potential for accidents. A train full of drunks and only one man on board? No thanks.

 

 

Some of this might be seeing as moaning. It's not. They have one chance to get this right in my lifetime. If they make mistakes when ordering the trains then we have to live with them. But Merseytravels record on listening to the public is pitiful. Just look at the Merseytram debacle. Now that was a wasted opportunity.

 

 

Jason

['CHARD]

This subject is inevitably going to generate a huge amount of local interest, and it's very natural that some firm views and opinions will be aired.

 

 

However, it's also important to keep a focus on accuracy and fact.

 

Chester - Southport is 1hr 40min on average according to Journey Planner, including a 15 minute transfer time at Moorfields, which has toilets.

 

It's the responsibility of the system operator to ensure that it has toilets in service - and it's that joined-up suite of amenities which is evidently missing sometimes.

Put simply, OOU station toilets are not the trains' fault.

 

 

I most recently looked at the system on Friday, and in huge detail this time last year.  I would say that its characteristics are precisely those of a classic metro system.

1. Merseyrail was conceived as an integrated regional rapid transit network.
2. It is 'metropolitan' in nature, serving an urban area and its adjoining towns.
3. The network is characterized by close station stops: 67 stations on 75 route miles.
4. These point-to-point stopping patterns give low average journey speeds.
5. The service pattern comprises 'return to start' and through services requiring interchange between lines.
6. The timetable intervals are metro in nature (typically 15 minute headways).

Some of the lines were, as has been mentioned, once classified as main lines, including that through Ormskirk.  This classification was removed when Liverpool took over the responsibility for service specification in 1969 after the MALTS report, and lines were downgraded and truncated, through services withdrawn or diverted and Liverpool Central and Exchange and Birkenhead Woodside termini closed.  

 

If Bombardier could have offered a version of S-stock that was capable of winning the order, then it would have done so.

[jjb1970]

At the risk of making this thread political, I am not sure that referencing the tragic fatality at James St. in terms of the safety (or otherwise) of DOO is appropriate given that the guard of the service concerned received a custodial sentence for manslaughter.

[antrobuscp]

Is the gap issue between train and platform a consequence of the infrastructure having had to cope with the 502/503 stock, the later types being smaller, and the structures not having been modified over the last 30+years?

 

The 502s were, I believe, much wider, but I don't know if this was at floor level as well as at the waistline.

 

Colin

['CHARD]

At the risk of making this thread political, I am not sure that referencing the tragic fatality at James St. in terms of the safety (or otherwise) of DOO is appropriate given that the guard of the service concerned received a custodial sentence for manslaughter.

 

Bidders had to specifically address the James Street report findings in their DCO/ DOO proposals.

 

That terrible incident polarises opinion amongst commentators, so you're right, it's possibly best left in peace.

['CHARD]

Is the gap issue between train and platform a consequence of the infrastructure having had to cope with the 502/503 stock, the later types being smaller, and the structures not having been modified over the last 30+years?

 

The 502s were, I believe, much wider, but I don't know if this was at floor level as well as at the waistline.

 

Colin

 

There was far less gap from the 502s at their platform interface, Colin - and I believe their antecedents were even closer to the infrastructure with a full length step, or what looked very much like one.  Part of the PEPs' problem is their chamfered-off corner profile.

Edited December 18, 2016 by 'CHARD

[Ron Ron Ron]

I prefer airline seats, and it is noticeable just how many people choose airline seats in preference to table bays when there is a choice available.

 

 

I'd be interested to see any research, rather than anecdote.......

 

 

I remember FGW/GWR carried out a study on various aspects of train useage, a couple of years ago.

On the HST's heading for London, which are basically commuter trains in the main, they noticed...

 

The first seats taken and filled up were those closest to the vestibules and doors (airline or otherwise).

Next most popular were the other seats in "airline layout"

Last was the bays with tables.

 

They noted that most passengers were travelling solo, or in pairs.

Groups of 3 or more tended to go for the bays first.

 

Admittedly, this was on a specific type of route, on an intercity type train. Passenger habits and patterns will vary across the network.

Metro services, such as Merseyrail, or for example inner-London commuter/local/metro etc, will no doubt see different passenger behaviour.

 

In my own experience, on local services, airline style seating seems to commonly chosen over bays, particularly for solo travellers and women in particular.

 

 

.

Edited December 18, 2016 by Ron Ron Ron