Castle Aching

[Compound2632]

35 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

(4) 1903 - to present; Diagram 3, 5-plank, steel u/f, 15' over head-stocks - Ditto body, but with steel u/f, once I've found a 9' wheelbase u/f to suit. 

 

3 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

Dumb buffers could have still been in use until almost the First World War. The Nantcwmdu Colliery Company has several, using Five & Nine kits, still running - just - in 1912.

jonathan

 

Well, yes, but the WNR is clearly a go-ahead concern where wagon design is concerned - early adopter of steel underframes for merchandise wagons.

[Edwardian]

12 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

Well, yes, but the WNR is clearly a go-ahead concern where wagon design is concerned - early adopter of steel underframes for merchandise wagons.

 

GER influence at work, tracking that railway's development of its general merchandise opens, albeit lagging behind somewhat (!):

 

1883: Pre-diagram 4-plank

 

1885 or 1887; Diagram 16 5-plank

 

1893 (main production): Diagram 17 5-plank - steel framed

 

[Edwardian]

What do we make of this?

 

(from the Bay of Fleas)

 

 

[Annie]

Very nice, - looks like an 1890's PO wagon of some kind.

[Regularity]

12 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

What do we make of this?

 

(from the Bay of Fleas)

 

 

The cupboard doors suggest a Scottish company. It may just be an optical illusion, but the wheels look slightly larger than on the other wagon. 3’7” wagon wheels were used, I believe, by a number of Scottish companies.

[RedGemAlchemist]

16 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

What do we make of this?

 

(from the Bay of Fleas)

 

 

It's a very nice, if slightly plain, open wagon.

[Nearholmer]

With a truly ‘interesting’ paint job!

[micklner]

Needs a paint stripper bath !!

[Compound2632]

Plastic or whitemetal? 

[Edwardian]

29 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Plastic or whitemetal? 

 

Plastic.

 

coal, general merchandise, or either?

[Compound2632]

I'm wondering if it's from Ian Kirk's basic wagon kit range of the 1970s - there was some discussion of this on my wagon-building thread a good while ago, with contributions from the Master himself, but I'm blowed if I can find the listing of his kits (or at least the ones that passed to Colin Ashby) that is on here somewhere. Westykits were mentioned too, also going to Colin Ashby.

[Northroader]

It’s got a “through” top plank, so intended for coal traffic rather than general merchandise.

[Edwardian]

9 minutes ago, Northroader said:

It’s got a “through” top plank, so intended for coal traffic rather than general merchandise.

 

Aha, I had my suspicions, and wondered if they (I have 2) would be suitable for WNR coal wagons. 

[Regularity]

15 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

Aha, I had my suspicions, and wondered if they (I have 2) would be suitable for WNR coal wagons. 

Why not have them allocated to loco coal traffic?

[Caley Jim]

1 hour ago, Regularity said:

The cupboard doors suggest a Scottish company. It may just be an optical illusion, but the wheels look slightly larger than on the other wagon. 3’7” wagon wheels were used, I believe, by a number of Scottish companies.

The doors certainly are typical of both CR and NBR mineral wagons, but they usually had heavy, outside framed end doors (at least all the CR mineral wagons did).  The axleboxes have a top lid like CR, NBR and HR ones, but they all were more bulbous and rounded at the bottom.

 

All CR 8 and 10 ton wagons had 4 planks.  It wasn't until the Dia 52 14T wagons that they used 5 planks, but on them the top two planks were through.

 

Having said that, there was a batch of 8T wagons the company took over from a private owner which were built by Hurst Nelson and had 5 planks, however they had the aforementioned end doors and the outer layer of the side doors was vertically planked.

 

So, not an exact match for anything of which I am aware.

 

Jim

Edited April 28, 2019 by Caley Jim
spelling error

[Hroth]

2 minutes ago, Regularity said:

Why not have them allocated to loco coal traffic?

Good call!

 

You wouldn't need big coal wagons for loco coal with all those titchy Sharp Stewarts around......

[Regularity]

8 minutes ago, Caley Jim said:

The doors certainly are typical of both CR and NBR mineral wagons, but they usually had heavy, outside framed end doors (at least all the CR mineral wagons did).  The axleboxes have a top lid like CR, NBR and HR ones, but they all were more bulbous and rounded at the bottom.

 

All CR 8 and 10 ton wagons had 4 planks.  It wasn't until the Dia 52 14T wagons that they used 5 planks, but on them the top two planks were through.

 

Having said that, there was a batch of 8T wagons the company took over from a private owner which were built by Hurst Nelson and had 5 planks, however they had the aforementioned end doors and the outer layer of the side doors was vertically planked.

 

So, not an exact match for anything of which I am aware.

 

Jim

I did a search, and they look like they might be to Highland Railway diagram: https://www.ambaile.org.uk/detail/en/28733/1/EN28733-model-of-a-hr-4-plank-open-goods-wagon.htm

 

 

So, try this: HR D6, courtesy of Pete Armstrong”s blog.

 

Edited April 28, 2019 by Regularity
Ignore that - not enough planks!

[Edwardian]

Capacity at CA is limited.  I reckon most goods trains will be 6-7 wagons plus brake. We do not need a fantastic number of wagons.

 

As we are pre-Great War, the majority of company wagons will be WNR.  There will be around a dozen GER wagons and around the same number made up of MR, GNR and MGNR.  Any other company wagons will be 1 or 2 examples. So far a LNW or 2, a GW and a Cambrian Rys feature. There will probably be about a dozen POs.

 

OK, so here's the plan, hopefully a reasonable selection of revenue earning stock for the WNR totalling 30:

 

WNR general merchandise opens (12):

 

- Round-ended 1860s x2

- Dia. 1 4-planks x4

- Dia. 2 5-planks x4

- Dia. 3 5-planks x2

 

WNR Coal wagons (4):

 

- 1870s dumb-buffered x2

- cupboard door 5-planks x2

 

WNR other opens (4):

 

- 3-plank dropsides x2

- flat/machine wagons x2 

 

WNR covered wagons (4)

 

WNR Livestock wagons (6):

 

- sheep x2

- cattle x4

 

Should probably add twin bolsters.

 

I reckon on half a dozen 'Goods Breaks'

 

In terms of non-revenue earning wagons,  I had thought of a wagon each allocated to:

 

- loco coal

- ash

- sand

 

Plus a PW train comprising sleeper wagon, rails wagon, and x? ballast wagons and Ballast Brake.  I quite like the shorty dumb-buffered LB&SC ones Roxey do, and might even include a couple of  Birmingham & Gloucester 1840s ballast wagons.

 

For the Norfolk Minerals Railway, I want really archaic short mineral wagons.  As an alternative to chaldrons, I am favouring 1840s Birmingham & Gloucester mineral wagons.

 

 

 

Edited April 28, 2019 by Edwardian

[Regularity]

The question is, how much traffic would be generated internally? 

Traffic generated outside of the area served by the railway and not brought in by sea will arrive in other companies’ wagons. Similarly, what about coal traffic? Lots of POS.

[micklner]

Nothing in Tatlow's  volume for NBR and GNOSR , as said above the NBR built similar Mineral wagons with the same strap layout, but 8 planks and a end door fitted.

[Edwardian]

Just now, Regularity said:

The question is, how much traffic would be generated internally? 

Traffic generated outside of the area served by the railway and not brought in by sea will arrive in other companies’ wagons. Similarly, what about coal traffic? Lots of POS.

 

 I am assuming traffic from outside comes from the nearest neighbours where possible, hence GER, MR, GNR and MGN together account for around as many wagons as the WNR.  Company wagons from further afield become rarer.

 

More PO coal wagons from outside the area are probably needed, however.

[corneliuslundie]

Although I agree to a likely Scottish parentage, there is a photo of Neath C&W shops with a wagon with similar cupboard doors, and a brake design similar to the Highland Railway one shown, though end doors both ends suggest Scottish parentage. I never got an explanation of what it was doing there but it makes me wonder if some private owners might not have purchased this style if they were going cheap. But pretty unlikely in East Anglia I feel.

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

There's absolutely no reason why a wagon of this type should not for part of the WNR stock. James hasn't given us the full diagram book listing (covered goods wagons?) so I can't give the page reference, but I think this is actually a relatively modern wagon - I'm guessing (inventing) one of a batch of loco coal wagons from c. 1896?

 

It's one thing to find the prototype for this kit but what I find more interesting is to know the provenance of the kit itself - which would answer the prototype question anyway.

[Andy Hayter]

19 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

 I am assuming traffic from outside comes from the nearest neighbours where possible, hence GER, MR, GNR and MGN together account for around as many wagons as the WNR.  Company wagons from further afield become rarer.

 

More PO coal wagons from outside the area are probably needed, however.

 

I am sure this is the right philosophy James.

 

In a world where we now travel around the world and equally order goods from as far afield, it is easy to forget that a century or more ago most people did not leave their county (or indeed their local area) and goods were likewise more often than not locally produced.  In one of the old HMRS Journals there is a picture of one of the LBSCR London goods yards.   There are 30 or more wagons that can be identified and every single one was LBSCR - no foreigners at all.  It surprised even the guys writing the article that the slew to local traffic was so strong, to the point where they questioned if there might have been some staging - but to what end?

[Nearholmer]

If the concordance is working, you should be able to find us discussing this very topic at length some time ago. IIRC, between us we worked out what, few, things Norfolk might need to import from distant counties.