Flying Scotsman trip cancelled

[Dunsignalling]

I think it is a combination of several factors that make some people put themselves in harms way.

 

Modern life is very much about instant gratification. TV, video games and even modern cameras add to this illusion that one must have this experience at almost any cost.

 

It is also a sad fact that all of the UK's railway network is in no way designed for such experiences.

 

To get the very best view and therefore picture, one must inevitably have no-one in front of you and in order to get that 'once in a lifetime' shot or just view the object one almost has to be creative with positioning.

 

Since one is looking to see an event that is quite short in duration and involves moving objects, that desire to be in the right place at the right time might well overpower a native caution and cause one to make decisions and perhaps follow someone else who seems to know what they are doing ( but actually doesn't ), into a position of grave danger.

Maybe they should just bung the cow-catcher back on and let them take their chances........

 

John

[Pacific231G]

I think part of ithe problem must be the idea that if you don't photograph it, it didn't happen and that means being at the front of the mob There must by now be tens of millions of almost identical front three quarter views of Flying Scotsman. I often find now that the best thing to do is to put the camera away for a while and simply enjoy the experience but maybe I'm just weird.  I don't take photos of my dinner either!!

The saddest sight is the person showing their small child (or grandchild) a steam loco at the end of the platform and being yelled at by all the "photograpers" whose "pictures are being ruined" I wonder how many of those photos will even be looked at more than once.

 

I was looking through the pictures I took at a steam festival a few weeks ago and this is actually one of my favourite images.

 

 

I have clearer photos of the actual loco - almost identical to those I took three years ago, but this to me captures far more of the atmosphere of the event.

[Dunsignalling]

I still believe that BTP prosecuting the obvious trespassers from the ECML incident and publicising this would have had a far greater effect - *they* decided that no action should be taken and now we all suffer for the few.

Headlines like "150 fined £1000 for Flying Scotsman trespass" would have done an awful lot of good. 

 

John

[Nimbus]

Fortunately, the lunatic element only seem to be interested in the one loco.

I got the impression that this element is the one woken from its slumbers by all the NRM-generated hype around the return of the loco. Those seen on the tracks didn't seem to be encumbered by the high-tech clobber the hardcore enthusiast tends to lug around. I was surprised by the number of 'normals' at my local station for 60103's light engine move up the ECML for the inaugural trip, they seemed to have piled out from the adjacent industrial estate, to judge from their clothing.

 

The Nim.

[Reorte]

I got the impression that this element is the one woken from its slumbers by all the NRM-generated hype around the return of the loco. Those seen on the tracks didn't seem to be encumbered by the high-tech clobber the hardcore enthusiast tends to lug around. I was surprised by the number of 'normals' at my local station for 60103's light engine move up the ECML for the inaugural trip, they seemed to have piled out from the adjacent industrial estate, to judge from their clothing.

If there's a load of hype around anything a lot of people will turn up. Cynically I wonder if it's just because people hate to miss something that appears to be an event, whether they've got any real interest or not. Less cynically even without much interest there's probably a bit of "Why not, it's fun to be part of something that seems to be big and it's different from the routine."

[Nimbus]

Never liked FS, I don't see what the fuss is all about.... Now if it were red and had smoke deflectors, double chimney, coal pusher tender and could outstrip one fireman's effort that would be a loco I would go and see.

So there.

 

Dave Franks.

But then, the LMS driving style did not favour economy of water or coal. When A3s were first transferred to Holbeck for the S&C, an inspector familiar with the type rode with a LM crew. The loco was so unhappy and rough riding when driven LMS-style as the crew was accustomed, that he felt compelled to intervene and show them how to get the best from their new engine. There's also a photo of the up Elizabethan approaching journey's end at Belle Isle, with remaining coal still piled high enough to be visible above the 8-wheel tender side. Can you say that was down to a weedy engine and idle fireman?

 

The Nim.

[pointstaken]

If you look at the original cow catcher design it consisted of a row of spears on a single axle. This design would be far more effective in dispersing the "rubbernecks".

 

Dennis

[luckymucklebackit]

Never liked FS, I don't see what the fuss is all about.... Now if it were red and had smoke deflectors, double chimney, coal pusher tender and could outstrip one fireman's effort that would be a loco I would go and see.

So there.

 

Dave Franks.

 

I took this photograph at Shieldmuir, the idiot photographers at the end of the platform were waiting for a big red engine with smoke deflectors, double chimney etc. (Duchess of a town not far away from Motherwell)

 

 

Jim

[Bon Accord]

It never ceases to amaze me how these things only ever seem to be discovered at the last minute.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-36290690

[TheSignalEngineer]

I took this photograph at Shieldmuir, the idiot photographers at the end of the platform were waiting for a big red engine with smoke deflectors, double chimney etc. (Duchess of a town not far away from Motherwell)

 

 

Jim

Hope he was holding on to the camera. The turbulence from the front of one of those could blow you away.

[Butler Henderson]

BTP and Network Rail need to act better; surely the Network Rail helicopter could be used to identify idiot spots as the idiots will be stalking out their vantage points some time beforehand or they could run a water spraying train immediately in front

[St. Simon]

It never ceases to amaze me how these things only ever seem to be discovered at the last minute.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-36290690

 

Track can be changed in height and position very easily (through routine renewal and maintenance) while keeping it in gauge for a service train, but might be brought out of gauge for a steam loco, if such work was undertaken last or this week, the exact data might not be available and with FS being quite new to the system, NR might not have exact data available for the loco (it being kept to the same design as a few years ago doesn't necessarily mean it hasn't changed a little, it only takes only an inch to cause problems)

 

Network Rail have a railway to run day in day out for costumers, they can't necessarily take lots of time to exactly measure a steam loco for one journey over one route once every few months.

 

Simon

[Bon Accord]

Track can be changed in height and position very easily (through routine renewal and maintenance) while keeping it in gauge for a service train, but might be brought out of gauge for a steam loco, if such work was undertaken last or this week, the exact data might not be available and with FS being quite new to the system, NR might not have exact data available for the loco (it being kept to the same design as a few years ago doesn't necessarily mean it hasn't changed a little, it only takes only an inch to cause problems)

 

Network Rail have a railway to run day in day out for costumers, they can't necessarily take lots of time to exactly measure a steam loco for one journey over one route once every few months.

 

Simon

 

It would seem they didn't take any time to run FS through their gauging software and nobody noticed/bothered to tell anyone of that fact until the 11th hour.

Considering the routes concerned are cleared for the A1 and A4s, I'd be reasonably surprised to discover that an A3 would not fit.

[beast66606]

Sounds like a cop out to me - a perfect excuse to mean a ban without saying "Because we fear trespass"

 

Sorry Simon, NR HAVE to make sure that any train they accept to run on a stretch of line is within gauge - what would have happened if the "admin error" had not been noticed and serious incident had occurred ?

[St. Simon]

Sounds like a cop out to me - a perfect excuse to mean a ban without saying "Because we fear trespass"

 

Sorry Simon, NR HAVE to make sure that any train they accept to run on a stretch of line is within gauge - what would have happened if the "admin error" had not been noticed and serious incident had occurred ?

I will admit that yes, they should do what they can to make sure a train is within gauge, and yes in this case an admin error was to blame (apparently), but it doesn't mean it's a cop out, it may just been an unfortunate situation that has arisen that could of happened to any train in theory, its just it happened to FS.

 

Simon

[brianusa]

How is it that there is no current up to date data base on steam locos, or diesels for that matter? It would certainly save this embarrassment and annoyance instead of springing it on the tour company and its passengers. From the very beginning, FS has gauging problems which is why the cut outs are on the front buffer beam, so they must have known this engine was a candidate for scrutiny ages ago, as well as more recently as noted in this thread. Once again, a definite NR screw up!

[phil-b259]

It would seem they didn't take any time to run FS through their gauging software and nobody noticed/bothered to tell anyone of that fact until the 11th hour.

 

 

 

I will admit that yes, they should do what they can to make sure a train is within gauge, and yes in this case an admin error was to blame (apparently), but it doesn't mean it's a cop out, it may just been an unfortunate situation that has arisen that could of happened to any train in theory, its just it happened to FS.

 

 

The thing is, much as enthusiasts might hate to hear it, the truth of the matter is they are not that important in the scheme of things.

 

NRs primary focus is on TOCs and FOCs - making sure the IEP is correctly gauge cleared is far more of a priority than a steam locomotive. As such its entirely possible that the job of gauge clearing Flying Scotsman simply got overlooked (or everybody thought someone else was doing it) - where as ensuring the IEP fits where it needs to run did not. Obviously that is not to say such a situation is an acceptable state of affairs, or to try and absolve NR of blame for something that it has a responsibility to do in good time, or that steps should not be taken to improve things in future.

[darrel]

Track can be changed in height and position very easily (through routine renewal and maintenance) while keeping it in gauge for a service train, but might be brought out of gauge for a steam loco, if such work was undertaken last or this week, the exact data might not be available and with FS being quite new to the system, NR might not have exact data available for the loco (it being kept to the same design as a few years ago doesn't necessarily mean it hasn't changed a little, it only takes only an inch to cause problems)

 

Network Rail have a railway to run day in day out for costumers, they can't necessarily take lots of time to exactly measure a steam loco for one journey over one route once every few months.

 

Simon

Sorry to disagree but the loco must have been measured as it has already run on the mainline since overhaul. If it has not it should not have made the trips it already has. The Borders line has only been open for about 6 months are we to say that it has not been gauge checked if so nothing should run over it?

This is a high profile mess. It's top story on the BBC New Scotland website. Network Rail has had plenty of notice of this run, there has Been a high profile campaign warning the public about trespass on the railway when the flying moneypit is out and about. And then with 48 hours notice they realise they have been incompetent. It's not acceptable and will make the general public wonder if NR are fit for purpose. When most of the delays to their journeys are down to BE

[Richard Pike]

I find it unbelievable that the Waverly route is so gauge restrictive, it is essentially the newest line in the UK and should have been designed with enough gauge clearance for any future expansion, why are we still building railways to a pre victorian gauging policy ?.

[Richard E]

Heritage diesel traction to York where, I believe, FS takes over (1Z44).

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

Sorry to disagree but the loco must have been measured as it has already run on the mainline since overhaul. If it has not it should not have made the trips it already has. The Borders line has only been open for about 6 months are we to say that it has not been gauge checked if so nothing should run over it?

This is a high profile mess. It's top story on the BBC New Scotland website. Network Rail has had plenty of notice of this run, there has Been a high profile campaign warning the public about trespass on the railway when the flying moneypit is out and about. And then with 48 hours notice they realise they have been incompetent. It's not acceptable and will make the general public wonder if NR are fit for purpose. When most of the delays to their journeys are down to BE

 

The line is new and compliant - one can but assume - with current standards.  the engine will have been checked and gauge cleared for various routs but that does not mean that it has been gauge cleared and checked for the new Waverley route.  An 'admin error'  (more commonly known in the vernacular as a c*ck up) seems to me a logical explanation - it wouldn't be the first time one has happened and it probably won't be the last.  The fortunate thing on this occasion is that no one has been hurt and nothing has been broken whereas past 'admin errors' have resulted in things being broken.

 

Overall NR does not come out of it looking like the efficient operation it would sometimes have us believe - that is the main impact but better a bit of reputational damage rather than physical damage.

[The Stationmaster]

Heritage diesel traction to York where, I believe, FS takes over (1Z44).

 

 

 

 

Judging by the timings north of York I would think it's fair bet that the train will be steam hauled

[Wheatley]

This 'incompetence' amounts to no more than someone forgetting to run FS's measurements through ClearRoute. Or not being told they had to. Or putting it in the 'to do' pile and not realising it was needed for this weekend. Or being given something higher priority to do. Or going off sick. Or ... or ... or ...

 

I'm sure all those complaining all work in industries in which routine admin never falls down a crack. 'Incompetence' would have been putting it through on the nod because it was a new route built to current standards and then losing a safety valve on a passing bridge. Because it's not like that's ever happened before is it ?

 

Maybe somebody at [Edit - insert name of licenced operator] should have checked earlier why they hadn't got the clearance back yet ?

[The Stationmaster]

This 'incompetence' amounts to no more than someone forgetting to run FS's measurements through ClearRoute. Or not being told they had to. Or putting it in the 'to do' pile and not realising it was needed for this weekend. Or being given something higher priority to do. Or going off sick. Or ... or ... or ...

 

I'm sure all those complaining all work in industries in which routine admin never falls down a crack. 'Incompetence' would have been putting it through on the nod because it was a new route built to current standards and then losing a safety valve on a passing bridge. Because it's not like that's ever happened before is it ?

 

Maybe somebody at Riley's should have checked earlier why they hadn't got the clearance back yet ?

 

Your final point raises an interesting question - who is the operator?  I don't think Rileys are because their role seems to be looking after the engine on behalf of the NRM. I'm not at all sure if the NRM is the operator but I suspect not, therefore that leaves which ever company is listed as the operator.

 

According to Realtime Trains the operator of the York - Edinburgh leg today is WCRC, presumably they are (were) the operator for the Tweedmouth train tomorrow so maybe they should have been ensuring that all arrangements were in place (that was definitely how SLOA did it 'in the old days' - always checking detail even tho' they were only supplying engines & stock)

[Wheatley]

Good question SM, I've been trying to find out who the 'TOC' is for FS, and the best I've come up with is this statement from Jim Lowe on the NRM website:

 

Working closely with the team at Riley & Son (E) Ltd who are managing the operation of the locomotive for a period of two years we have chosen locations that cover a large proportion of the UK...

 

My bold. Somebody must be acting for the NRM for vehicle acceptance purposes. The inaugural run happened in the middle of WCRC's er... operating holiday (!) so I doubt it's them. Anybody know ?