Kernow MRC announce 4-TC

[kintbury jon]

Hi Jon

Good news. If you search www.petertandy.co.uk - Class 33 there is a picture of 33118 plus a 4TC in NSE from 1990. It is 5th from the bottom.

On my phone so can't get it to link directly but you should find it fairly easily I hope.

Also on the page is a 33/1+4TC+5TCB Wool - Birmingham New St troop train from 1988.

Regards

Phil

Good news indeed! Many thanks Phil.

[ColinK]

Another 4TC ordered.

[Tom - vac]

Please find attached photos of two engineering samples photographed at the Bachmann stand at the Bluebell Railway Model Railway Exhibition at Sheffield Park on 25/06/16.  Sorry only phone camera photos.

 

Note that the headlight is missing from the gangway door - so for an earlier period model.

 

DTCs have tables between the seating bays next to the windows.  Did not travel on the 4TCs that much, so my memory maybe incorrect, but I thought they only had small tables suitable for a couple of drinks below the window and not full size tables?

[simpsonjock]

Please find attached photos of two engineering samples photographed at the Bachmann stand at the Bluebell Railway Model Railway Exhibition at Sheffield Park on 25/06/16.  Sorry only phone camera photos.

 

Note that the headlight is missing from the gangway door - so for an earlier period model.

 

DTCs have tables between the seating bays next to the windows.  Did not travel on the 4TCs that much, so my memory maybe incorrect, but I thought they only had small tables suitable for a couple of drinks below the window and not full size tables?

Hi

 

I'm pretty certain you're correct - travelling daily on TC's from 1974 to 1983 I recall they had a small table below the window for a couple of drinks, not full size ones - I recall though the REP DMSO's next to the restaurant car had large tables though, at least in the half nearest the restaurant car, used for meal service.

 

These photos look great, can't wait to see livery samples

 

David

[Gwiwer]

Inspection of Mk1 stock, including 4TC and 4Cig units, would have revealed two stainless steel clips just below the window and a brass ring in the floor near the central gangway for the location and support of removeable tables.  Seating bays with external doors did not have this feature but otherwise it allowed the fitting of tables where none was normally provided.  This included having tables positioned in compartments (only done on rare occasions) upon prior request being made.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Gwiwer

[eastwestdivide]

This page on SEMG:

http://www.semgonline.com/gallery/class438_2.html

shows full-size tables in the last picture on the page.

[Oldddudders]

Inspection of Mk1 stock, including 4TC and 4Cig units, would have revealed two stainless steel clips just below the window and a brass ring in the floor near the central gangway for the location and support of removeable tables.  Seating bays with external doors did not have this feature but otherwise it allowed the fitting of tables where none was normally provided.  This included having tables positioned in compartments (only done on rare occasions) upon prior request being made.

Quite so, Rick. In the late 50s and early 60s any long distance journey included fetching a folded table from where they were strapped in the vestibule end, I recall. With Dorset being the destination for so many TC passengers, it made sense to continue to provide this facility.

[Ian J.]

Oh, the days of decently-spaced seats so that your knees didn't get squashed against seat backs, and a proper table! Shame the ride was poor enough that any drink put on the table stood a risk of falling over...

[Oldddudders]

Oh, the days of decently-spaced seats so that your knees didn't get squashed against seat backs, and a proper table! Shame the ride was poor enough that any drink put on the table stood a risk of falling over...

Less of a problem with the ice-cream served at your seat! [up Atlantic Coast Express, late '50s]

[Joseph_Pestell]

Oh, the days of decently-spaced seats so that your knees didn't get squashed against seat backs, and a proper table! Shame the ride was poor enough that any drink put on the table stood a risk of falling over...

I don't think that the TCs were particularly bad for ride. 4REPs had a poor reputation for that.

 

But mostly down to p-way problems, I think, with track not really up to the speeds that the drivers liked to run at.

[Joseph_Pestell]

It does look like a lovely model with all the curves represented very well. Should logically lead on to other units if the market will bear the prices.

[simpsonjock]

This page on SEMG:

http://www.semgonline.com/gallery/class438_2.html

shows full-size tables in the last picture on the page.

This looks like a photo of either 410 or 417 in their 'premier charter' days, when tables were fitted. The NSE moquette certainly suggests a later era picture. I'm not sure whether the 'teak' LUL set has tables fitted. Interesting to read Rick's post regarding the fitting of tables 'on demand', including in the compartments.

 

I'm hoping that the model includes the distinctive orange curtains (which Bachman did so well on the 4-CEP). As another thought - it would be great to see transfers for the destination boards above the drivers side window, used in the earlier days to denote the Weymouth portion from the rest of the train. And of course the 'BOMO' depot code on the vehicle front!

 

David

[Colin parks]

It could just be my eyesight, but are the vertical beading strips missing from these impressive samples?  See Ceptic's post #181 here for reference (last photo):  http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/51422-4-cig-for-newhaven-harbour/page-8  The gangway connection seems to be a common moulding, cf. the lamp bracket on the inner end of the vehicle in Tom -  vac's post #328 photo.  

 

I know how some on RMweb hate rivet counters/nit pickers, but these are just observations, perhaps it is too late to change such details now.  

 

Colin

[lyneux]

Colin,

 

Vertical beading strips where precisely? Body, bogies, front, sides, cab?

 

I assume you are implying driver's door?

 

Guy

Edited July 5, 2016 by lyneux

[Colin parks]

Colin,

 

Vertical beading strips where precisely? Body, bogies, front, sides, cab?

 

I assume you are implying driver's door?

 

Guy

Hi Guy,

 

Forgive the imprecision of my comments re. the beading, but if you refer to the picture in that link (post #338), you will see that these strips were on either side of the passenger doors (all except driver's doors).  There was also a horizontal strip on the bottom edge of the cab sides.  I am not sure if this strip extended all along the bottom edge the body sides between doors on 4 TCs - as with the 4 CIGs.  

 

There is also an excellent thread by Brian Daniels which has photos of his very fine build of a 4 TC in 7mm.  These features can easily be seen here (post #2693):  http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/1458-brians-7mm-diesel-workbench-4tc-conversion/page-108 

 

Some have insisted that the door panels were flush with the beads on these vehicles (and 4CIGs, 4 REPS) therefore, the doors being slightly proud of the body side panels.  Looking at the photographic evidence, I am not convinced, but could be wrong.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

Edited July 6, 2016 by Colin parks

[Phatbob]

I'm not sure that those "beads" are an original feature, particularly the beads along the bottom of the body sides.  I've had a butcher's at some piccies of the units when new and they're not always evedent.  I suspect that they are the consequece of corrosion repairs?  Could anybody in the traincare community confirm or deny that?
 

[Colin parks]

I'm not sure that those "beads" are an original feature, particularly the beads along the bottom of the body sides.  I've had a butcher's at some piccies of the units when new and they're not always evedent.  I suspect that they are the consequece of corrosion repairs?  Could anybody in the traincare community confirm or deny that?

 

Hi Phatbob, just found this photo:

 

 https://grahammuz.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/32-640z1464336812_jpg.jpg

 

 I am fairly certain that these strips/beads are not repairs (although many 4 SUBs certainly had repair gussets along the bottom edges of their body sides).  Photos of 4 TCs in the original blue livery do not show these parts so well as those in the later blue grey livery.  Anyway, I did not want to make a big thing of it, but just observed that these features are missing and perhaps still could be added to the model.

 

All the best,

 

Colin 

[number6]

If we are rivet picking... Put me out of my misery here: is the indicator box in the cab end door a bit too high up?

 

I am not convinced that it is in the right position but then I haven't found an end view of the model. Are there any front on views of the cab from the sample? It appears the top of the indictor window matches the top of the cab windows but should actually a bit below? I feel there is too much door below the indicator. I'd hate this to be the reason the 'face' looks wrong - something we all missed on the VEP until it was painted yellow...

[Colin parks]

If we are rivet picking... Put me out of my misery here: is the indicator box in the cab end door a bit too high up?

 

I am not convinced that it is in the right position but then I haven't found an end view of the model. Are there any front on views of the cab from the sample? It appears the top of the indictor window matches the top of the cab windows but should actually a bit below? I feel there is too much door below the indicator. I'd hate this to be the reason the 'face' looks wrong - something we all missed on the VEP until it was painted yellow...

Hi Number6,

 

I had not noticed that feature, but now you mention it, the top edge indicator panel is in line with the cantrail.  It should lower according to most photos of this type of cab front, but not all, curiously enough.   It would be nice to think that there is still time to iron out these issues, for it does say on Graham Muz's website that there are still a few 'tweaks' to be done: https://grahammuz.com/category/model-news/  (Though how he knows, he does not say.)

 

Colin

[Gwiwer]

Given the relatively short development time of this model, as in probably months not years, I would guess a prototype has been scanned.  Enough vehicles survive to make that possible.  As such the features on the model will be those scanned allowing for limitations of scale and moulding.

 

I'm not much of an expert on the detail but the face of the test shot looked spot on to me.  If in reality some units have headcode panels slightly higher / lower than others I suggest that might relate to the date of conversion and a different drawing having been used though I'm not claiming to be an expert here.  

These two images suggest the cab windows and headcode panel (on these units at least) are slightly lower than the cantrail but only by a tiny amount which may not be notice able on a 1:76 model.  The second image also shows that the headcode panel is lower than the cab windows by about the width of the edge beading.  Again that may be too small to show up on a model but both would have been picked up by a scan.

 

http://www.semgonline.com/gallery/pics/cd_4tc_3.jpg
https://photos.smugmug.com/Modernyearonyear/2012/January-2012/i-4X7BhTD/0/L/TC-120118-03-66711-5O38-%204TC%20to%20Eastleigh-Egham-L.jpg

 

This image by contrast appears to show the cab windows flush with the cantrail the alignment being helped by the orange line as a reference point.  The unit also appears to have an additional strip to the rear of the cab door which is an area of potentially high accidental contact (driver's bags, hands, boots etc) requiring some reinforcement.  Another exists at solebar level below the cab window but nowhere else.  Compare the window frames for reference.

 

http://table158photography.weebly.com/uploads/8/2/1/2/8212554/_mj0075_filtered.jpg

[acg5324]

This head on image I have of 415 seems to suggest that the headcode panel outside of frame lines up with the cab window inside of frame.
http://andygibbs.zenfolio.com/p726940309/h2a5c746b#h2a5c746b

 

Edited July 7, 2016 by acg5324

[number6]

Thanks for those references - still hard to tell how the model compares though. It was this image from Kernow that made me wonder - as well as a gut feeling of what looks right [my usual yardstick!]. It is where the base of the indicator window reaches when compared to the cab windows that I have been looking at. It could be that the glazing insert for here could have a painted surround and that will shift the position of the window...

 

[Colin parks]

Here is an image of my 4 CIG's cab front:  

 

 

Dangerous to use a model for illustration, but here the front windows and indicator support the photographic evidence of Gwiwer, acg5324 and Number6: the difference equates to the indicator by the width of the surround - about 1 1/4" (0.4mm as near as makes no difference).  The Kernow EP sample seems to be very close to this if not spot on.  It is almost impossible to tell without a head-on picture of the sample. 

 

Colin 

[Ian Morgan]

Some period photos that may be helpful can be found here:

 

http://www.4tc.org.uk/unit/index.php/photos

[brushman47544]

The position of the headcode panel looks the same to me in all the prototype photos, but in Colin's 4-CIG model photo it looks slightly higher. Could this be down to the shadow created by the direction of the light shining on the corridor connector? There was much criticism of the protrusion of the Hornby 4-VEP's corridor connector - in the extended rather than contracted position. Could this be the issue with the 4-TC too?