Southernman46 Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 Yes, I saw at least one 3TC in blue/grey too. I would have been very young at the time and recall being somewhat baffled by seeing a 3-car EMU when I thought all of that general type were 4-car. Last all-blue ones were repainted by 1971 and the 3TC units were not strengthened until 1974. Here is a late survivor in blue in 1970: 4TC_420_413_Wimbledon_22-5-70 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr What's the yellow panel above the cab side window - guessing destination board but a bit small ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 What's the yellow panel above the cab side window - guessing destination board but a bit small ? Yes, I believe it's a destination board. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium cctransuk Posted September 10, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 10, 2017 What's the yellow panel above the cab side window - guessing destination board but a bit small ? Yellow line - denoting first class driver's cab. Regards, John Isherwood. (That's what too much cheap Rhodean plonk does to your brain)! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted September 10, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 10, 2017 Yes, I believe it's a destination board. Correct. The tradition of placing a destination slipboard on the carriage side was continued onto the Bournemouth line stock. These had Waterloo on one side and those on the Rep units had Bournemouth on the other while those on the TC units as far as I remember showed Weymouth. However given that normally only one 4TC continued to Weymouth while the other remained coupled to the Rep at Bournemouth there may well have been two versions of which one showed Bournemouth / Weymouth and the other Waterloo with something else or possibly a blank. Either way a nice little detail for the modeller to add to the blue units. They didn't survive too long into b/g days. On the subject of tables in the 4TC DTSO coaches my attention has been drawn to original drawings which showed the units were not fitted with full sized tables as converted / built. They did however regularly run with some of the clip-in ones fitted and not (as in the Rep) for service of meals but for the general convenience of passengers. Multiple sources have stated to me they remember 4TC units with full-sized tables present which accords with my memory of them. In terms of the models I will happily accept them "as is" being a compromise and possibly the result of scanning a unit more recently fitted throughout with tables. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Budgie Posted September 10, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 10, 2017 I wonder if the passengers enjoyed a lively ride with a 3TC+3REP+ED... that's a good power to weight ratio Griff I quote from Wikipedia: In extreme cases, to keep services running, 4-REPs had a motor coach replaced by a Class 73 locomotive.Is this what is going on here? If so, it's not such a good power-to-weight ratio. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted September 10, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 10, 2017 As the 4Rep traction motors were required for the then-new class 442 5Wes units there was a shortage of Reps during the conversion phase. Some temporary formations were used (some extremely temporary lasting only a few days and many lasting only weeks or months) which included the replacement of a 4Rep motor coach with a class 73. This had a detrimental effect on the power: weight ratio and such workings were restricted, on paper at least, to 8-car formations on the fast services. The semi-fast trains had some very tight point-to-point timings which required full power whereas once the fast was under way it could usually cope with fewer horses and keep something like scheduled time. The train shown in the image displays headcode 91 which is a fast. The TC unit is numbered 8102 which makes it one of the six class 438/1 units nominally classified 4TCT (Trailer Control Trolley), with modifications for accommodating a refreshment trolley in lieu of a Rep catering coach. As formations changed very frequently, almost daily, one must be careful jumping to conclusions but it may be that the TFK is missing pending full conversion and is not yet included, or has been removed already for scrapping. I believe 8102 also saw service as a 4TCB with a Rep buffet car in place of the TFK so perhaps this is in service between one formation and the other. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RFS Posted September 10, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 10, 2017 If you want chapter and verse on all the various formations / re-formations of the Bournemouth line stock then it's all detailed on the "blood and custard" web-site - http://www.bloodandcustard.com/bournemouth1966.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRman Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 As the 4Rep traction motors were required for the then-new class 442 5Wes units there was a shortage of Reps during the conversion phase. Some temporary formations were used (some extremely temporary lasting only a few days and many lasting only weeks or months) which included the replacement of a 4Rep motor coach with a class 73. This had a detrimental effect on the power: weight ratio and such workings were restricted, on paper at least, to 8-car formations on the fast services. The semi-fast trains had some very tight point-to-point timings which required full power whereas once the fast was under way it could usually cope with fewer horses and keep something like scheduled time. I thought the class 73s were directly equivalent in power to a 4 REP DM coach. Nominally they were 1650 hp continuous on third rail, while a half a REP unit would be (again nominally) half of 3,300 hp, i.e. 1650 hp. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted September 10, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 10, 2017 (edited) Blood & Custard suggests the 73s were only good for 1600 horses. Edited September 10, 2017 by Gwiwer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRman Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 I'm not sure about the gearing, Rick, I can check when I get home. REPs and 73/1 and 73/2 were all rated for 90 mph, although the REPs, as you know, did unofficially exceed the ton on more than one occasion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 (edited) A 73 and a REP motor coach were near enough the same power, they also had the same bogies and traction motors, just different suspension springs. Edited September 11, 2017 by royaloak Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 Blood & Custard suggests the 73s were only good for 1600 horses. As was a REP motor coach. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 4630 Posted September 11, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 11, 2017 (edited) Yes, I believe it's a destination board. The boards were made of 5 ply plywood painted yellow, with the destinations printed black on yellow adhesive plastic film fixed to the board. Here is the Bournemouth/Waterloo version from a Rep. They didn't survive too long into b/g days. They survived a reasonable time into b/g days. My recollection from living and spotting around Bournemouth during the 70s is that they were still in use until around 1974. I don't have a precise date for their use being discontinued, but I would suggest it would have been with the introduction of the second batch of Reps (3012-3015) and TC conversions in 1974. From new these later builds probably didn't have the brackets to hold the boards, and they were removed from the original build Reps and TCs as they subsequently passed through BREL Eastleigh Works. Edited September 11, 2017 by 4630 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 I recall seeing the boards in the early 1970s. Although the 4 Rep units and 73s had essentially the same motors, I have it in mind that those in the Reps were only rated at 365 hp, possibly because the Reps did not have traction motor blowers. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tetsudofan Posted September 11, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 11, 2017 Looks like the NSE version has arrived or due in very near future , credit card hit this morning. Keith 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kintbury jon Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 I hope so though when I asked at the Old Oak Open Day they reckoned it was a couple of months away. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold griffgriff Posted September 11, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 11, 2017 I quote from Wikipedia:Is this what is going on here? If so, it's not such a good power-to-weight ratio. OK it's lost 1600 HP down to its missing DMS... but gained 1600 HP from the ED... with only a 3 car TC to tax it. So 3200 HP on 6 coaches. I'd say that sounds like a bit of fun. Griff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RFS Posted September 13, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 13, 2017 Just been doing some testing with the model. I run my layout with RR&Co automation so I was keen to find out how the unit performed with occupancy detection. With the older Bachmann models, such as the 2-EPB and 4-CEP, just placing an unpowered trailer coach on the track triggers the detector due to the way the lighting circuits are wired. This does not happen with the 4-TC with just a trailer coach on its own, but it does however do so if the trailer coach is connected to the TBSK where the decoder is. That's fine for my purposes: it means when the unit is being propelled the detector will be triggered as soon as the leading coach enters the block. Given that the inter-coach connectors are 4-pole that led me to do another test. Do all coaches pickup track current and feed back to the TBSK's decoder, something the 4-CEP doesn't do with only 2-pole connectors? Yes is the answer: as long as all 4 coaches are connected up correctly you only need a single bogie live to the track to have all lighting and head codes on throughout the unit. This is a big improvement on the 4-CEP in addition to the 4-TCs much improved lighting that is consistent throughout the unit. Literally puts my 4-CEPs in the shade! Hopefully the forthcoming 4-BEP will be wired the same way. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BR(S) Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 Revised, darker NSE blue now showing in the pictures of the NSE one: http://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/54989/32-643Z-Bachmann-Class-438-4-TC-Unit-number-8023-NSE 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BR(S) Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 Charter blue and RTC livery ones due in stock next week. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob F Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 A 73 and a REP motor coach were near enough the same power, they also had the same bogies and traction motors, just different suspension springs. The power to weight ratio would be worse though as the 73 will weigh considerably more. Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Roy Langridge Posted September 17, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 17, 2017 The power to weight ratio would be worse though as the 73 will weigh considerably more. Rob 25 tons more. Roy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Budgie Posted September 19, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 19, 2017 I've just received an email saying they've sent out my set No.410, due for delivery tomorrow. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Budgie Posted September 20, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 20, 2017 410 arrived today, and I set it up with 416 to run as 8TC pushed by 33102. Apart from stopping in the reverse loop, meaning I had to set the dual frog juicer to 4 amps on both circuits, it ran beautifully. I am impressed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tetsudofan Posted September 20, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 20, 2017 (edited) My NSE version (as well as the RTC version) arrived today. Just got the NSE version out and fitted a Bachmann 36-557 21-pin decoder and placed it on the track amongst some new Polish friends and got the headcodes working: Not sussed out where you find the interior lights but does not seem to be on F1. Will hopefully sort that out later. First impressions are good especially the dark blue finish which matches the loco currently pushing the unit: which turned out to be Haymarket which, unbeknown to the powers that be, got fitted with the SR multiple unit wiring..... If Haymarket can get to push the NSE set then 97201 is off for a quick visit to Stewarts Lane to be wired up for MU running with the RTC set...... Keith Edited September 20, 2017 by tetsudofan 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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