Are we at a crossroads?

[Revolution Mike]

£200 for a 2 car Dmu in N.

 

Which N gauge 2 car DMU costs £200??? Are you sure it wasn't a sound fitted 108 review you were looking at?

 

 

As to DCC I don't understand why. It greatly increases cost. But for steam models it hardly improves realism. Wiring layouts isn't so difficult and you only have one loco on the same section at a time anyway. Yes I've seen it and am unconvinced.

 

That is fair enough, but no one is forcing you to buy a DCC fitted loco and the cost of designing in a DCC socket is peanuts....

[coachmann]

L&Y, on 30 Aug 2016 - 19:17, said:

As to DCC I don't understand why. It greatly increases cost. But for steam models it hardly improves realism.

The RTR manufacturers must find it pays to supply their locos DCC Ready. When properly set up, DCC makes for greater realism at very low speeds. A decent sound file correctly set up is 100% more realistic than traditional silent running. No one is forced to fit a decoder. 

[Legend]

I've been away for awhile. Have just started to subscribe to BRM again after a break. A good deal at the moment so I couldn't resist. But when I see the prices of some of the RTR items. Particularly the new ones yet to be released I'm in shock. £200 for a 2 car Dmu in N. I think the world has gone mad. However fine the model is there are still massive lumps of plastic on each end for couplings and the models run on toy like chunky track. And will still derail at a long crossing and lurch through it.  The new Heljan O gauge loco's look much better value! Maybe it's just me but there won't be newcomers to the hobby if it's priced out of the market. With these prices sales will be slower. And less will be sold. Production runs will be shorter. And that will again push prices up. Yes the quality is better. The fine detail is finer than ever. But you need a magnifying glass to notice the difference. I can't see like I used to anyway. If the proportion is right and it runs well. Has a decent paint finish and the right transfers it will do for me. As to DCC I don't understand why. It greatly increases cost. But for steam models it hardly improves realism. Wiring layouts isn't so difficult and you only have one loco on the same section at a time anyway. Yes I've seen it and am unconvinced. If railway modelling is to be around in another generation then there has to be some compromises in order to keep prices realistic. If things carry on like this I will be going to live steam. It's hardly anymore expensive! We are not all millionaires. I remember when the first Mainline OO loco's hit the market and caused shock waves. The bottom dropped out of the kit market overnight. And people said how can they get any more realistic than they are now.... Sprung buffers are all very well but they don't look any different to unsprung ones until compressed. And with chopper couplings they never will be!!! Lets have a return to sanity & real world prices with as much detail and quality as can reasonably be seen and enjoyed without needing a second mortgage. Only in O is a lot of this detail easy to appreciate and strangely the price of good O gauge models is coming down having been overpriced for years. In fact my Minerva Peckett was hardly any more expensive than the 2 car DMU reviewed in the September issue. Given the size of it and the limited amount of stock I can fit into a given area. It's the way to go for me. If I can only afford a couple of loco's and a few wagons. Maybe a coach or two. Then perhaps only O gauge will survive. The rest being small scale production runs for a bunch of elite modellers. Wait a minute. Isn't that what O gauge used to be???

 

Well said that man! Can't disagree with a word.

[Andy Y]

Well said that man! Can't disagree with a word.

 

I did wonder earlier today if the post to which you refer was simply an automated chatbot which has purely repeated your top ten grumbles over the last two years and re-hashed them.

 

Choosing models based on pence per cubic inch of product does seem to be an indiscriminate method of choosing one's modelling subject matter.

[L&Y]

 

L&Y, on 30 Aug 2016 - 19:17, said:

The RTR manufacturers must find it pays to supply their locos DCC Ready. When properly set up, DCC makes for greater realism at very low speeds. A decent sound file correctly set up is 100% more realistic than traditional silent running. No one is forced to fit a decoder. 

 

Agreed re the decoder. Though a lot of models are now being supplied DCC fitted. As to slow running I have some electronic controllers built by a member of the 2mm scale association. They are as good as anything I've come across for a fraction of the price of DCC. I have no idea if there still available. The sound lacks bass to me. The tiny speakers in the loco's are just not big enough for a good sound in OO. In N the problem must be worse. Though since Bass isn't directional there may be a way around that with a sub woofer under the baseboard?? But living up in the third world in Yorkshire. The cost of it I find prohibitive. Or perhaps I'm just getting old! 

I started out on pocket money. (I didn't get a lot.) With a bit of help at a Birthday or Christmas. I don't think I could do the same today. If models are going to be built to super fine standards shouldn't the track gauges and couplings be sorted out? OO up to EM And N could seriously do with a revamp. Maybe not to full 2mm scale standards as the minimum radius is a rather restrictive. But certainly a halfway house. You don't expect to run coarse scale O on a finescale O layout. 

[Loconuts]

I have been following this topic with interest and I think that many of the people who have had their say on the various aspects on which direction the hobby is going have missed the biggest tool to affect the hobby. That is the Internet and thanks to the Internet it is now easier for diversity in the hobby.

 

A few years ago to see a American narrow gauge layout at a show would be a very rare event and yet now they are common place, European layouts are common place and the number of layouts covering all spectrums of the British scene in various scales is beyond belief. All this has been made available by the Internet and the ease of purchasing models and parts from around the world.

 

The Internet plays a big part in getting models manufactured in China without having to visit the country on a regular basis which if visits were required would put the price up of the models.

 

Back in the 1970's a friend of mine wanted to model Italian railways in HO, it resulted in a very expensive excises and many items were very hard to obtain without visits to Italy. Today all he would have to do is click on the Internet, find suppliers in Italy and order. I model the D&RGW narrow gauge railroad and thanks to the Internet I can obtain all the items I require for my railroad from suppliers in the States by a click of a button, so to me the Internet is a boon.

 

The down side of this is my local Model Shop does not see my custom, mainly as he does not stock what I want.

 

Loconuts 

[Legend]

I did wonder earlier today if the post to which you refer was simply an automated chatbot which has purely repeated your top ten grumbles over the last two years and re-hashed them.

 

Choosing models based on pence per cubic inch of product does seem to be an indiscriminate method of choosing one's modelling subject matter.

My choices are based on value for money, not at all about price per cubic inch. I'm glad to see L&Ys contribution , and I think if you look at this months letters page on the good old Railway Modeller you might find our views are not untypical coming from the perspective of a consumer.

[47137]

Trying to milk this sprung buffer thing a little bit more, I've just bought a packet of eight sprung buffers for £5.95 in John Dutfield's in Chelmsford. Bachmann part number 36-035.

 

So if Bachmann reckon it costs £15 to fit sprung buffers instead of rigid ones, they must be paying more for their own bits than we are :-)

 

- Richard.

[grahame]

. . . . .  when I see the prices of some of the RTR items. Particularly the new ones yet to be released I'm in shock. £200 for a 2 car Dmu in N. I think the world has gone mad. However fine the model is there are still massive lumps of plastic on each end for couplings and the models run on toy like chunky track. . . .

 

Edit: Actually the 108 is £269.95   Ouch. 

 

That price is for a DCC fitted unit complete with sound - always expensive ATM - and is the RRP. No-one pays the RRP. They are discounted on release. Plus if you are prepared to wait a little they will probably be reduced in price further. And if they don't sell well will end up in a bargain sale bin making it even cheaper. You need to do some research and get smart about prices to reduce your shock.

 

The 'plastic lumps' are the old N gauge couplings standard (Arnold Rapido), but these days are fitted in NEM sockets so can be easily removed (simply pull out). That means you can either have none showing or easily fit alternatives of your choice.

 

And the issue about track is again your choice. You can purchase toy like track such as the plasticky chunky code 80 Kato Unitrack or much more realistic code 40 British Finescale N track, any brand in between, or make your own. Again the choice it yours, along with the price you pay. No-one is foisting it on you. 

 

G.  

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...As to DCC I don't understand why. It greatly increases cost. But for steam models it hardly improves realism...

Of course it doesn't improve realism of the model. But it don't half improve realism of operation. The steam railway was chock full of multiple track occupancy moves with steam locos, for example bringing trots of locos on and off shed at busy locations, having the station pilot add a vehicle to a standing train in a platform, adding a pilot or banker(s). I still get a kick from being able to park locos nose to tail on shed 'any which way' for maximum track space utilisation without any concern about parking within isolating sections. It's great if you enjoy simpler and more flexible operation, well worth the money.

 

But having said it costs more to obtain this facility, if you don't need it then there is no incremental cost as the RTR manufacturers have kept faith and consistently supply locos in 'DC only' form. And because the RTR manufacturer's decoders are not that special, sometimes you can get a better price by buying 'DCC fitted' on clearance; and then remove and sell the decoder for a further saving. (And DCC is old hat BTW, there are several competitors jostling in the wings for the 'next generally accepted option for more realistic and flexible operation'.)

 

 

...I remember when the first Mainline OO loco's hit the market and caused shock waves...

 Me too. There were folks proclaiming imminent disaster for the hobby over that event back then, and it hasn't happened.

[The Stationmaster]

My choices are based on value for money, not at all about price per cubic inch. I'm glad to see L&Ys contribution , and I think if you look at this months letters page on the good old Railway Modeller you might find our views are not untypical coming from the perspective of a consumer.

 

I'm getting fed up with all this nonsense about prices.  The reality is that prices for many model railway items have risen.  And they have risen for numerous reasons -  changes in the international value of our currency, changes in wages and other costs in the factories and workshops which make the models, changes in the prices of raw materials and components, and - most of all - efforts by the 'manufacturers' - to try to remain or become profitable.  And how the heck do you define your idea of 'value for money' compared with mine or a.n.other's?  'Value for money' does not necessarily mean 'cheap' because to me that word implies something else entirely.  So what does it mean beyond the satisfaction of the individual when he/she has bought something which they are happy to have for the price they have paid.  I consider I got value for money when I had my house built but it certainly wasn't cheap.

 

Any idiot can sell most things at a loss, quite a few idiots have managed over the years to sell things at what appears to be a profit but doesn't cover their underlying costs.  And when all is said and done r-t-r model railways are a relatively small, but highly demanding, market where costs will inevitably be high because of lack of volume and, quite likely, the level of risk with some models as well as the cost of research & development.

 

But despite all that retail prices are not exactly out of kilter with the historical situation for model railway items in Britain, especially when one considers the extra bangs we get for out £s nowadays compared with what we got 40/50 years ago.  And, apart from being irritating, continual moaning about it won't make a scrap of difference.  If the 'manufacturers' sell too little they may adjust their prices downwards, if they can't afford to adjust their prices downwards they'll pack up and do something else.  The only thing which is likely to affect their thinking is if people cease to buy their products at what they consider an acceptable rate of return.

 

If anyone thinks they can do better they have a very simple choice - there are still reputedly Chinese factories looking for work so spend a year or so doing your research, find a factory, supply them with photos and drawings plus a very clear specification and get your models into the marketplace at your bargain basement prices.  If you need capital then mortgage or remortgage your house - after all that isn't going to be a financial risk as your business plan and pricing strategy no doubt prove.  Oh and don't bother with scanning whatever you have in mind because the costs of that process are also on their way up at present.

 

Might I in the meanwhile suggest a new thread titled 'I want to moan about r-t-r prices' with that subject banned from every other thread on RMweb or could we broaden so I can moan about Waitrose cutting back on the number of steak cuts they are selling in their '3 for £10' offer or the fact that their bargain price for toilet rolls cost me £1.65 more than I'd have paid for the same items in Tesco?

[PaulRhB]

There seems a constant theme to demand more for less with models being said to be overpriced. The comparisons with consumer electronics just don't apply as the scale of production is a fraction, so mostly hand done by skilled rather than semi skilled workers, that applies to model assembly too. The parts may be identical but the programming isn't and software is still much better paid in any industry compared to hardware assembly.

Production costs are rising as the workers demand a level of living akin to what they see us getting, production only went abroad to maximise profit we didn't see a big drop in price in the 80's and 90's. So we stored up a ticking price bomb and now there's no poor workforce to exploit to pamper to our want for a cheap luxury item.

We are lucky that technology is moving towards making it easier to produce small batches at a very slight increase in price over mass production but I still only see a small group skilled modellers and workers producing these items as so many post that they don't have the skills to build a kit let alone design a model from scratch.

There's nothing wrong with those without the skills or time to acquire them enjoying the hobby but they have to be content with what's offered.

If a company announced a model six years ahead at least it saves you buying a kit, adding it to the one day pile, and then finding just as you finish it the model appears as rtr. How many announced toolings, (as opposed to liveries), have actually been cancelled except because another rtr maker got there first? I can think of two American models I would have bought being abandoned but no British one's. There have been attempts to crowd fund models that have fallen by the wayside but they were never definite announcements.

The big companies are increasingly being run by shareholders who bring in experts from other industry or college high flyers to maximise profit. These experts don't know the market and apply their standard knowledge and it just doesn't work. I see it with many companies at work and I see it with Hornby's woes in marketing.

For a different approach look at BNSF railway and it's much lauded takeover by Warren Buffet, Mr Goldfinger, and his investment company. He said I bought it because they were already doing it right so I left them to get on with it and invested. He could see the potential and knew big change inevitably causes problems. UP a few years ago applied the common logic of cutting costs and went into meltdown as they had too many inexperienced staff making mistakes and costing time that literally brought sections of the railroad to a halt.

No doubt all of you can quote daft cost saving measures and inability to see the reality by companies and your council but it's us that demanded lots for nothing.

So companies set yearly targets for managers to get pay rises and we wonder why all planning is short term. Most of these people then look to move on 'to new opportunities/challenges' because they've exhausted the cutting potential and know it's going to go downhill. Now if your bonus relied on the last 3-5 years results wouldn't all of them think longer term?

There's problems with consumer and company expectations of price and profit pulling in opposite directions because 'we want more'.

Conversely there's a lot of us on here very happy with the quality and value we get and just accept we can't have everything we would like.

To those with big ideas may I suggest buying a lottery ticket as it's as likely to come up as prices are to come down

[coachmann]

There will always be moaners about prices, but when they roam off into the realms of track gauge and DCC, I spot armchair pundits. Experiments with steam sounds and realistic running are my latest fads, so when I read DCC is not good or words to that effect, I wish the moaners would post their work to back up their mouth then I can at least see where I've been going wrong!

 

As for prices, I have just gone through a box-shifters lists and there are steam outline locos there at priced never mentioned by the doom-mong's.  Pssst, wanna Compound....£89.00? ROD 2-8-0 £80.00? GWR 56XX 0-6-2T £76.46? LBSC Umber livery E4 0-6-2T £80.00? BR Std Cl.5 4-6-0 in green £82.00 or black a few shekels more? LMS 2P 4-4-0 £61.00?  Railroad GWR 'Hall' £67.00? 4F 0-6-0 £58.00? 6P Patriot £64.80? LNER A1 or A3 Pacifics £49.00 to £56.00?  Non-Railroad A3 Pacific £94.00? B1 4-6-0 £87.00? B17 4-6-0 £74.00? D16/3 £73.00, J15 £75.00? K1 £82.00? P2 2-8-2 £58.00? Schools £98.00? 

 

Then of course there is the second-hand market to buy from...

[BG John]

There will always be moaners about prices, but when they roam off into the realms of track gauge and DCC, I spot armchair pundits. Experiments with steam sounds and realistic running are my latest fads, so when I read DCC is not good or words to that effect, I wish the moaners would post their work to back up their mouth then I can at least see where I've been going wrong!

I frequently roam into the realms of track gauge, because I work in EM, and to P4 standards in broad gauge. And I post my work to back up my mouth .

 

I'm also not interested in DCC, as it seems to be an expensive and only partial solution to the next stage of realism. The layout still needs wiring, and so far the only sounds you get come from locos. What about crashing, banging and squealing wagons and coaches, and all the ambient sounds of the world around the railway? If I change from DC it will be to radio control, where no layout wiring may be needed. And I'm waiting for some audio stuff to arrive from the Far East to start experimenting with ambient sounds.

[Free At Last]

Trying to milk this sprung buffer thing a little bit more, I've just bought a packet of eight sprung buffers for £5.95 in John Dutfield's in Chelmsford. Bachmann part number 36-035.

 

So if Bachmann reckon it costs £15 to fit sprung buffers instead of rigid ones, they must be paying more for their own bits than we are :-)

 

- Richard.

It is everyone else along the way adding their mark up increasing the cost, including HMRC @ 20% of the final price, that brings it up to £15.

It would be interesting to know what £1 added to the cost of assembly of an item comes out at when it reaches the retailers shelf. It certainly won't be £1.20

[grahame]

My choices are based on value for money, not at all about price per cubic inch.

Hmmm,

 

But price per cubic inch is one simple method of making a comparative value for money judgement.

 

G.

[Craigw]

My choices are based on value for money, not at all about price per cubic inch. I'm glad to see L&Ys contribution , and I think if you look at this months letters page on the good old Railway Modeller you might find our views are not untypical coming from the perspective of a consumer.

 

My choices are made based on what i want to model. I use some discipline and restrict myself to a certain timeframe and buy very little outside that.

 

I would choose quality over quantity any day of the week.

 

Craig W

[coachmann]

I'm also not interested in DCC, as it seems to be an expensive and only partial solution to the next stage of realism. The layout still needs wiring, and so far the only sounds you get come from locos. What about crashing, banging and squealing wagons and coaches, and all the ambient sounds of the world around the railway? If I change from DC it will be to radio control, where no layout wiring may be needed. And I'm waiting for some audio stuff to arrive from the Far East to start experimenting with ambient sounds.

Thankfully, those of us who consider there can be too much sound can turn them off John. Steam locos can be noisy animals as everyone knows, but they also have their simmering moments. The things I like about DCC sound is the ultra slow constant running as per the real thing (run a loco up against a brick wall and the wheels keep on turning) and the exhaust and coasting etc from a well produced sound file. Where I am located, there is enough ambient sound outside of my shed with passing cars, pedestrians, planes, helicopters and a whistling neighbour.... 

[PaulRhB]

Where I am located, there is enough ambient sound outside of my shed with passing cars, pedestrians, planes, helicopters and a whistling neighbour.... 

Does limit the time period though as he just had to put all the pre war locos in the cabinets as the helicopter sounds wrong

[47137]

It is everyone else along the way adding their mark up increasing the cost, including HMRC @ 20% of the final price, that brings it up to £15.

It would be interesting to know what £1 added to the cost of assembly of an item comes out at when it reaches the retailers shelf. It certainly won't be £1.20

Extremely difficult to follow - if this were true, we'd buy all our RTR in completely knocked down form. In truth, the retailers make their profits on the spares and detail parts, not complete models, and indeed the handling and restocking costs for small parts are proportionately far higher. Everything gets VAT, everything from China gets shipping costs. Admittedly, a small import from outside the EU avoids import duty, but this is irrelevant to a model shop getting stock through an importing wholesaler.

 

- Richard.

[bike2steam]

Trying to milk this sprung buffer thing a little bit more, I've just bought a packet of eight sprung buffers for £5.95 in John Dutfield's in Chelmsford. Bachmann part number 36-035.

 

So if Bachmann reckon it costs £15 to fit sprung buffers instead of rigid ones, they must be paying more for their own bits than we are :-)

 

- Richard.

Someone explain to me the logic ? Sprung buffers on buffer to buffer contact as in 3-link couplings - yes, but with standard rtr couplings ????

[Andrew F]

Pressable pleasure for handlers?   or compression at the buffer stops. I prefer solid turned brass buffers but they seem hard to find these days.

[PaulRhB]

Someone explain to me the logic ? Sprung buffers on buffer to buffer contact as in 3-link couplings - yes, but with standard rtr couplings ????

Logic Paul?

I've never found buffers in OO soft enough to compress on buffering up, the stock just isn't heavy enough

[47137]

Someone explain to me the logic ? Sprung buffers on buffer to buffer contact as in 3-link couplings - yes, but with standard rtr couplings ????

The way I see it, many 00 models (locos and wagons) have their couplings in NEM sockets in those little "fish tail" mouldings, while most contemporary H0 models have a close-coupling cam. If an 00 modeller wants scale couplings (to enjoy the sprung buffers), it is easy to remove the fish tail moulding and leave a nice clean appearance at the buffer beam.

 

I don't know if many H0 people use 3-link or screw couplings (I can't cope with the 4mm ones!), but the widespead adoption of cams suggests the majority do prefer a "model" coupler. I cannot remember seeing an H0 model with sprung buffers.

 

Of course, we might suppose anyone with the manual dexterity to use a scale coupling can darned well change the buffers themselves, but that's heading off on a fresh tangent.

 

- Richard.

[BG John]

Thankfully, those of us who consider there can be too much sound can turn them off John. Steam locos can be noisy animals as everyone knows, but they also have their simmering moments. The things I like about DCC sound is the ultra slow constant running as per the real thing (run a loco up against a brick wall and the wheels keep on turning) and the exhaust and coasting etc from a well produced sound file. Where I am located, there is enough ambient sound outside of my shed with passing cars, pedestrians, planes, helicopters and a whistling neighbour.... 

My comment was about too little sound, not too much! Loco sound can be nice, but it puts even more focus on the loco, rather than the whole scene. Slow constant running should be just as good, or maybe better, with radio control. Passing cars, planes and helicopters need insulating or drowning out when you model various dates from 1890 to the 1930s. And whistling neighbours too, if they're whistling modern tunes! Mind you, until I'm ready for full on sound, I'll probably be playing 1970s or later rock music while I'm operating!