More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

I have a well-trained family:

 

 

Now these claim to be books about private owner wagons but having had a gentle browse through, I've found the most interesting photos feature railway company-owned wagons. I've had some fun D299 spotting! I'll post some commentary in due course.

Edited May 3, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[queensquare]

11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I have a well-trained family:

 

 

Now these claim to be books about private owner wagons but having had a gentle browse through, I've found the most interesting photos feature railway company-owned wagons. I've had some fun D299 spotting! I'll post some commentary in due course.

 

 

Excellent books. I dont have the volume on the South East yet but I can recommend the companion volumes on Bristol and the Forest of Dean. The main problem with these books is that they can lead to marathon wagon builds!!

 

Merry Christmas all

 

Jerry

 

[Compound2632]

15 minutes ago, queensquare said:

Excellent books. I dont have the volume on the South East yet but I can recommend the companion volumes on Bristol and the Forest of Dean. The main problem with these books is that they can lead to marathon wagon builds!!

 

I have Bristol and Gloucestershire but not Forest of Dean - on the grounds that the Forest of Dean coalfield was supplying locally (vide the Gloucestershire volume) but probably not as far north as Brum, and equally seems unlikely to have had many customers for coal from north of Brum. But my presumption could be wrong - as I don't have the book, I don't know! I could make the same argument for Somerset but there are some examples of wagons trading with the Midlands coalfields, via the S&DJR and Bath. John Arkell's volume is for for local interest - its area of coverage is the SECR / SR Eastern Division, which includes the SER Reading line - but not the LSWR Staines - Wokingham line. I look forward to the Berks Bucks & Oxon volume said to be in preparation but a volume on Worcestershire would also be very handy!

 

[Western Star]

33 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I have Bristol and Gloucestershire but not Forest of Dean - on the grounds that the Forest of Dean coalfield was supplying locally (vide the Gloucestershire volume) but probably not as far north as Brum, and equally seems unlikely to have had many customers for coal from north of Brum. But my presumption could be wrong - as I don't have the book, I don't know!

Tsk, tsk.  As you have the books you ought to know better than your comment about "coal" for there is more in each book than just coal.  There are many photos which show wagons that were written for operators in industries other than coal, a great example is Samuel Evers from Cradley Heath, (covered in Turton, for reference see Greaves).  Evers had premises in a location which today is thought of as a colliery site, what is not so obivous is that the location was also able to provide materials to make firebricks and that was Evers' business.  The Gloucester official shows that Evers' wagons were written as "empty to Cradley Heath" so not likely to be bringing in coal to a business sitting alongside a colliery.   After discussion with Ian Pope he is of the opinion that Evers' wagons were used for delivery of firebrick.

 

Time for some reading and sideways thinking maybe?

 

regards, Graham

Edited December 26, 2021 by Western Star

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Western Star said:

Tsk, tsk. 

 

Graham, I accept your reproof, as ever, but, as ever, will also argue back. My defence on this occasion is that coal accounted for the overwhelming majority of the traffic carried in private owner wagons. In general, I'm against the method of argument from exception: I want my model railway to represent the usual, not the unusual. 

 

Throughout the West Midlands, collieries and brickworks were commonly side-by-side, thanks to the geology and, I think, possibly providing a buffer against seasonal variations in one industry or the other.

[Rowsley17D]

A bit late to the party but my 2F, an OO Works product from a few years ago. 

 

 

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Rowsley17D said:

A bit late to the party but my 2F, an OO Works product from a few years ago. 

 

You jammy lot! I am without 2F in any form or colour, black, red, green, blue, or golden gorse.

[Compound2632]

Somewhat surprisingly, it is Richard Kelham's Private Owner Wagons of Somerset that is the least willing of the three books to yield good photos of D299s, or even their S&DJR relations. On p. 87 there's an end of one, with the extra vertical strap-plate seen on many; and on p. 114, one in the coal yard at Langport c. 1907/8. But to make up for such a dearth of D299s, there's an ex-PO dumb-buffered 4-plank standing in several inches of water at Glastonbury in 1894. Of course there's selection bias going on here; we don't know how many hundreds of photos featuring D299s Richard rejected just because they didn't give a good view of a PO wagon!

 

But I'm also on the lookout for PO wagons that would have passed through Brum on the Midland, such as George Small of Taunton. whose earliest wagon illustrated, of 1892, is marked Empty to Cossal Colliery Ilkeston Junction E.V.R. On that wagon he says he is a coal, lime, and stone merchant; pace Graham, it's clear from that empty to instruction that this wagon was intended for coal. On his wagons from later in the 1890s, after he had taken his son into partnership, he's dropped the stone but added corn to his portfolio. I very much doubt he ever shipped sacks of corn in any of his mineral wagons! Even lime is, I think, unlikely. In the Skipton ledger I've been looking at, lime arrives either in lime company's wagons or railway company wagons.

Edited December 26, 2021 by Compound2632

[jamie92208]

From my researches, limestone quarries used their wagons to ship out thevlimevorvstone and the coal back. Loaded both ways. The coal would either feed the line kilns or be sold locally.

 

Jamie

[wagonman]

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Somewhat surprisingly, it is Richard Kelham's Private Owner Wagons of Somerset that is the least willing of the three books to yield good photos of D299s, or even their S&DJR relations. On p. 87 there's an end of one, with the extra vertical strap-plate seen on many; and on p. 114, one in the coal yard at Langport c. 1907/8. But to make up for such a dearth of D299s, there's an ex-PO dumb-buffered 4-plank standing in several inches of water at Glastonbury in 1894. Of course there's selection bias going on here; we don't know how many hundreds of photos featuring D299s Richard rejected just because they didn't give a good view of a PO wagon!

 

 

Not many I promise. The collieries of the Bristol coalfield were rotten with D299s but their market didn't seem to include Somerset. Despite having its own mines Somerset was a net importer of coal as well as a transit route for stuff going further south and west. The Forest of Dean supplied quite a bit, mostly shipped across the Channel to Highbridge, Bridgwater etc. Coal also came down the MR and later GWR lines from the Midlands/Cannock areas.

 

On the other side of the sheet, coal from Somerset pits went east following the canals.

 

Richard

[Izzy]

15 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

You jammy lot! I am without 2F in any form or colour, black, red, green, blue, or golden gorse.

I see LRM do a 3130 kit these days. I tried making one from a Jidenco one years back…nuff said…

[Jol Wilkinson]

52 minutes ago, Izzy said:

I see LRM do a 3130 kit these days. I tried making one from a Jidenco one years back…nuff said…

LRM have produced a MR 3130 for many years, since John Redrup took over the former George Norton Connoisseurs Choice range (in the 1980s IIRC).

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Izzy said:

I see LRM do a 3130 kit these days. 

 

Ah, a speaker of Middle Midlandish; I cultivate Old Midlandish myself. See a couple of pages back for the unsuitability of a 1698 Class for the Birmingham area c. 1902 and the possibility of converting it to an M...

[Compound2632]

I'm a bit constrained at the moment on the modelling front owing to the frequency with which the dining table is wanted for dining, coupled with the studenty part of the household not having breakfast until shortly before lunch. So while they're still asleep and Daisy has Lexi in pin-down, some more random (and out-of-period) reflection on the PO books. Some days before Christmas, over on Tony Wright's thread @swampy quoted Chris Crofts [Model Railway Journal No. 15 p. 162] to the effect that if you hesitate to put a GWR open with sheet bar and a coal load onto an LMS coal stage, you haven't understood the concept of wagon pooling. I replied there yesterday but my post was swiftly swamped by reams of photos of models of excessively large green engines with too many wheels, as often happens, so rather than let my pearls of wisdom wither and die I'm recycling them here. This also relates to an email correspondence I had just before Christmas with a non-RMWebber but occasional reader, who had kindly sent me the tables of dates for the various wagon pooling agreements, from Atkins [1] and Tatlow [2], reminding me how complicated the history was in detail.

 

The Turton book [3], p. 14, has a photo taken at Cricklewood c. 1931 that could well have been the prompt for Chris Crofts' remark. On the coaling stage ramp, there is just such a wagon, a 4-plank with sheet bar and Dean-Churchward brake, no younger than 1902, along with an earlier 4-plank with conventional brakes, 46664, dating from around 1890, and a more modern 5-plank, 111562. All have the 16" G W lettering in use from 1920. But perhaps even more interestingly, between the two 4-plankers is a 3-plank dropside wagon, also in loco coal traffic, carrying the lettering G&SW, quite fresh looking! So, not only a pre-Grouping wagon still in pre-grouping livery  seven or eight years after the Grouping but at the opposite end of the country from its native heath. The other LMS wagons in the photo are both in LMS livery but are of pre-Grouping origin: a Midland D305 dropside wagon 102005, which I think has the D-shaped numberplate, dating it to 1913 or after; and an ex-LNWR D12 or D13 timber truck 263960, carrying p. way material. Other identifiable wagons are a GN 6-plank, in very shabby GN lettering, 57033, and 5-plank wagon also of pre-Grouping origin but freshly painted in NE livery, 446149 - ex-GC, from the number?

 

On the same theme, Arkell [4], p. 4, has a photo taken at High Brooms on the Tonbridge - Hastings line, said to be late 1930s - there is an all-steel wagon that would no doubt give an earliest date to those who know about such things. Coal is being bagged up inside this wagon Again, there is a GW wagon with sheet bar in coal traffic - this time a 5-plank but the number is hidden from sight. There's another GW open loaded with barrels and possibly small boxes or packages. Between these is a long open with doors at both ends - ex-L&Y I think - in coal traffic, as is an ex-LNWR D84 open 272364, looking rather shabby with LMS lettering. There's no lettering visible on the ex-L&Y wagon but it has the diagonal stipe running bottom left to top right. It might have the 1936-style small lettering - hidden from view. Just beyond the all-steel wagon is one that may have the initials GN, very faded. Of the PO wagons, only Coventry Colliery No. 540 of 1927 is a straight RCH 1923 specification wagon.

 

This set me thinking about the proportion of pre-Grouping wagons one would see at a given date in the Grouping period. Tatlow [5] gives the totals for the big four wagon fleets at 31 December 1922, 1931, 1939, and 1946. The total number of wagons built by the LMS from 1923 up to each of these dates can be found by a bit of tedious adding-up from Essery & Morgan [6]. At the end of 1931, 66% of LMS wagons were of pre-Grouping origin; by the end of 1939, 48%, and by the end of 1946, 38%. 

 

[1] A. G. Atkins, W. Beard and R. Tourret, G W R Goods Wagons (Tourret Publishing, 1998).

[2] P. Tatlow, LNER Wagons Vol. 4A (Wild Swan, 2012).

[3] K. Turton, Private Owner Wagons: a Fifth Collection (Lightmoor Press, 2006).

[4] J. Arkell, Private Owner Wagons of the South-East (Lightmoor Press, 2016).

[5] P. Tatlow, LNER Wagons Vol. 1 (Wild Swan, 2005).

[6] R.J. Essery and K.R. Morgan, The LMS Wagon (David & Charles, 1977).

Edited December 27, 2021 by Compound2632
sp.

[Compound2632]

Dining table was free...

 

 

Any thoughts on modelling the Harrison cord in 4 mm scale?

Edited May 3, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[Rowsley17D]

Lovey coaches, Stephen, whose are they, please?

[Penlan]

24 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Any thoughts on modelling the Harrison cord in 4 mm scale?

Not on those coaches 
Rowsley17D - Ratio kit Coaches

Edited December 27, 2021 by Penlan

[Rowsley17D]

10 minutes ago, Penlan said:

Not on those coaches 
Rowsley17D - Ratio kit Coaches

 

Great paint job.

[Compound2632]

17 minutes ago, Penlan said:

Not on those coaches 

 

Is that right? The internal communication cord acting on the vacuum brake was agreed on as standard in 1899; the Midland started fitting the equipment in 1900 but progress was slow owing to the heavy demand on the suppliers of the fittings. The LNWR 50 ft corridor carriages were built 1898-1902, so I'd have thought at least the earlier ones would have been built with the external communication cord? But you are absolutely right to the extent that my carriages don't have the loops along the eves for the cord. Neither do they have any means for getting gas to the lamps! There are two in the box to finish...

 

Anyway you will have spotted that there are no coal rails on the tender, which there should be by the date of the carriages. But I have a solution for that, thanks to John Gowers.

Edited December 27, 2021 by Compound2632

[Penlan]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Is that right? The internal communication cord acting on the vacuum brake was agreed on as standard in 1899; the Midland started fitting the equipment in 1900 but progress was slow owing to the heavy demand on the suppliers of the fittings. The LNWR 50 ft corridor carriages were built 1898-1902, so I'd have thought at least the earlier ones would have been built with the external communication cord? But you are absolutely right to the extent that my carriages don't have the loops along the eves for the cord. Neither do they have any means for getting gas to the lamps! There are two in the box to finish...

 

Anyway you will have spotted that there are no coal rails on the tender, which there should be by the date of the carriages. But I have a solution for that, thanks to John Gowers.

Uhmn, change over of the communication etc. braking, and if I recall correctly, right bang in the middle of your modelling period.  I assumed the lack of coal rails was just a temporary thing with a new purchase.
However I have a gravel floor in my payne less greenhouse. I think there's at least a couple of loco's on my circa 1910 layout without coal rails 

 

[billbedford]

11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Other identifiable wagons are a GN 6-plank, in very shabby GN lettering, 57033, and 5-plank wagon also of pre-Grouping origin but freshly painted in NE livery, 446149 - ex-GC, from the number?

 

 

Nope 446149 is ex-GNR

[billbedford]

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Is that right? The internal communication cord acting on the vacuum brake was agreed on as standard in 1899; the Midland started fitting the equipment in 1900 but progress was slow owing to the heavy demand on the suppliers of the fittings. The LNWR 50 ft corridor carriages were built 1898-1902, so I'd have thought at least the earlier ones would have been built with the external communication cord? But you are absolutely right to the extent that my carriages don't have the loops along the eves for the cord. Neither do they have any means for getting gas to the lamps! There are two in the box to finish...

 

 

Well, they certainly won't have had titanium white roofs at any time in there lives. 

[Compound2632]

5 hours ago, billbedford said:

Nope 446149 is ex-GNR

 

Thanks. I couldn't easily find number ranges from Tatlow Vol. 1 but looking more closely I do find GN opens with numbers in the 400000 - 450000 range. GN wagon stock at grouping was a round 42,000 - do I correctly infer that LNER numbers were GNR numbers plus 400,000? And hence GCR plus 500,000, GER plus 600,000, NBR plus 700,000, and NER unchanged and new construction continuing the NER series?

 

4 hours ago, billbedford said:

Well, they certainly won't have had titanium white roofs at any time in there lives. 

 

Agree; lead white, gradually going black. At my modelling date these carriages would be at most 3-4 years old, possibly nearly brand new. 

 

In fact, Humbrol No. 34 applied about 35 years ago!

[billbedford]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Thanks. I couldn't easily find number ranges from Tatlow Vol. 1 but looking more closely I do find GN opens with numbers in the 400000 - 450000 range. GN wagon stock at grouping was a round 42,000 - do I correctly infer that LNER numbers were GNR numbers plus 400,000? And hence GCR plus 500,000, GER plus 600,000, NBR plus 700,000, and NER unchanged and new construction continuing the NER series?

 

 

Agree; lead white, gradually going black.

 

Gradually? more like within a week or two. There are very few photos of white roofs apart from officials. 

Edited December 28, 2021 by billbedford

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, billbedford said:

There are very few photos of white roofs apart from officials. 

 

And far from all of those:

 

 

"Greater Britain Class 2-2-2-2 No. 528 Richard Moon is posed in the distance on the Northampton down line with 2pm corridor stock on 13th June 1897." Assuming Philip Millard's identifications given in the caption are correct and the last three carriages are WCJS 45 ft vehicles, they are brand new at this date - or, according to Jenkinson, not yet built. The dining saloons and 42 ft carriages were built 1892/3; one wonders what attention they would have received in the interval. One has to remember that throughout that period the 2pm stock had only been exposed to the clean exhaust of the compound Jeanie Deans (or her sisters), not the foul-mouthed spewing-forth of incompletely combusted fuel from some thrashed Precursor; at least, south of Crewe. [Embedded link to Warwickshire Railways image lnwrrm3318.]